Are Loyalist Space Marines too nice?

[Phoebus]

This thread brings up an interesting question.

 

When was the last time any of the 'hero' characters in the Imperium-POV books did something genuinely morally reprehensible? I don't mean something done out of necessity (putting recruits through death trials to create more space marines, destroying a planet so tyranids/chaos couldn't use it etc.) but like something completely unnecessary and cruel for the simple sake of being cruel?

 

But that's conflating two different things. Space Marines aren't "nice" in the way we think of the term because they're conditioned and indoctrinated into being living weapons. The reason for this is to defend humanity from unspeakable horrors. The tragedy of the setting is that all these horrors have twisted humanity into a totalitarian collective that think's it's righteous even as it imposes horrific conditions on its subjects. Cruelty for cruelty's sake has nothing to do with this. That's a Drukhari/Dark Eldar trope.

 

EDIT: great points on the origins of the setting, mc warhammer. For myself, I think the current crop of authors have done a good enough job divorcing the current setting from the satirical underpinnings of the past. The product can still be hit and miss in terms of how well the dystopia is conveyed, but that's another topic. Honestly, this is one of the reasons why I'm not a fan of Orks: they're a holdout from the more humorous origins, and it feels jarring when straight-lace Imperial characters use Ork terminology, or when ramshackle Ork technology is juxtaposed against that of the other factions.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Phoebus

[Lord_Caerolion]

It's interesting to note though, that the Orks are only really humorous to us because we're external observers in the setting, and because of the way they talk. When you read Armageddon, which was a far more objective take on the Orks, not translating their language, etc, the Orks become absolutely terrifying, even though nothing else is changed.

 

Sure, their technology is ramshackle, but in certain aspects it's far in advance of the technology of any other faction. They developed a way to create stable wormholes (well, mostly stable), something no other race has really managed. I do wish they'd stop using the terminology for other races, keeping it as an Ork thing, or at least use more of the Ork language instead.

 

I mean, people say they're humorous because they talk funny and have shoddy-looking weapons, but when you take another look they're basically angry gorillas armed with weapons that are blowing you apart, and can survive most forms of bodily trauma, including having their head removed.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

@phoebus

 

by and large i think the authors have done a good job too, but there's bound to be variance in the overall effect...which is what some readers latch on to i suppose. me? i'm happy to go along for the ride and not fight the text too much.

 

@phoebus and @lord_c

 

on the one hand, i like a setting/universe that can deliver extremes across stories. most of the lauded franchises can go from high camp or comedy in one installment to gut wrenching terror the next. peaks and troughs are always more engaging than one note wonders.

 

and i take lord_c's point re in-universe and out. i'd go further, and say that even irl, we have weirdly cute names for things that are downright dangerous. i've seen blokes yell out "argy bargy" or "biffo" at the pub, moments before someone ends up in hospital post brawl. criminal jargon can often include strangely funny or cute nicknames for things that can kill you.

[Phoebus]

At the end of the day, my problem with Orks isn't the capability behind their ramshackle technology or the savagery behind their often comical appearance. It's the fact that, however we try to spin it, their image and theme is jarringly contrasting against every other faction's. They are the one faction that still makes an overt, exaggerated wink to the original material. For some, that's a strength. For me, it's like 25% of the Adeptus Mechanicus adhering to the mad scientist look and almost all of them speaking like Doc out of Back to the Future.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

This thread brings up an interesting question.

 

When was the last time any of the 'hero' characters in the Imperium-POV books did something genuinely morally reprehensible? I don't mean something done out of necessity (putting recruits through death trials to create more space marines, destroying a planet so tyranids/chaos couldn't use it etc.) but like something completely unnecessary and cruel for the simple sake of being cruel?

 

But that's conflating two different things. Space Marines aren't "nice" in the way we think of the term because they're conditioned and indoctrinated into being living weapons. The reason for this is to defend humanity from unspeakable horrors. The tragedy of the setting is that all these horrors have twisted humanity into a totalitarian collective that think's it's righteous even as it imposes horrific conditions on its subjects. Cruelty for cruelty's sake has nothing to do with this. That's a Drukhari/Dark Eldar trope.

 

To bring this back slightly more on-topic, as interesting as the discussion on how the various races have changed from the original portrayals. the whole "niceness" issue reminds me of a post by "Baron von Evilsatan", which while being written about the Mechanicus, ended as follows:

 

 

 

The Imperium isn't grim because things suck by choice and could be fine if a sensible person came along. That sensible person wouldn't last 50 seconds of the reality. The Imperium is grim because every single   decision, every single sacrifice, every single death, every single man, woman, and child suffering a   life in the worst conditions imaginable, is the absolute best that can be done. It is a study of the worst happening to everyone and what part of your humanity must be sacrificed today just to stand a chance of survival, and all it asks is whether or not it would have perhaps been better to die.

[mc warhammer]

At the end of the day, my problem with Orks isn't the capability behind their ramshackle technology or the savagery behind their often comical appearance. It's the fact that, however we try to spin it, their image and theme is jarringly contrasting against every other faction's. They are the one faction that still makes an overt, exaggerated wink to the original material. For some, that's a strength. For me, it's like 25% of the Adeptus Mechanicus adhering to the mad scientist look and almost all of them speaking like Doc out of Back to the Future.

 

 

absolutely agree that they can stick out like a sore thumb (green thumb?), but it just doesn't irk me for some odd reason

 

though i found them suitably intimidating in helsreach

[Phoebus]

mc warhammer,

 

I did enjoy their depiction in Helsreach, and I was a fan of them in Brothers of the Snake.

 

Lord_Caerolion,

 

I find myself in strong agreement with some of that poster's point, and in strong disagreement with others. Would a reasonable person last in the Imperium of Man? No, of course not. Are the awful conditions human beings live under the "best" the Imperium can do? No, of course not.

[mc warhammer]

 

 Would a reasonable person last in the Imperium of Man? No, of course not. Are the awful conditions human beings live under the "best" the Imperium can do? No, of course not.

 

this is pretty much how i currently view the setting

[Bulwyf]

If you want Loyal Space Marines that are "bad" then Helsreach shows that and the one Iron Hands book where they just literally sacrifice an entire army of Imperial Guard for a distraction springs to mind. There's another story where the Deathwatch wipe out loyal people just because "Deathwatch is secret" and several instances of Inquisitors blowing up worlds or killing off troops/populations that simply came into contact with Chaos.

[Scribe]

Wrath of Iron, is the glorious work you are alluding to. :)

[Ascanius]

 

To bring this back slightly more on-topic, as interesting as the discussion on how the various races have changed from the original portrayals. the whole "niceness" issue reminds me of a post by "Baron von Evilsatan", which while being written about the Mechanicus, ended as follows:

 

The Imperium isn't grim because things suck by choice and could be fine if a sensible person came along. That sensible person wouldn't last 50 seconds of the reality. The Imperium is grim because every single   decision, every single sacrifice, every single death, every single man, woman, and child suffering a   life in the worst conditions imaginable, is the absolute best that can be done. It is a study of the worst happening to everyone and what part of your humanity must be sacrificed today just to stand a chance of survival, and all it asks is whether or not it would have perhaps been better to die.

 

 

My response to arguments like this - "the Imperium is the best that humanity can hope for" - is to point out that the reason this is the case is because the Emperor made it so. He enslaved much of humanity to his totalitarian vision of its racial destiny, and he declared that alien species could not be allowed to share the galaxy with humanity, and he essentially handed Chaos hundreds of thousands of transhuman warriors led by demigods.

 

That's the irony of the Imperium, I reckon. It's the nightmarish solution to a problem that the Imperium created for itself.

 

What I will not agree with is the notion that the Imperium's tyranny was the only practical response to pre-existing conditions in the galaxy. That's just not the case. They made this rod for their own backs.

[Bulwyf]

Wrath of Iron, is the glorious work you are alluding to.

 

Thank you. I could not for the life of me remembering what that Iron Hands book was. I loved it. It was a great way to see how the Hands view current Imperium with such disdain.

[Daddywarcrimes]

I've noticed a that most of the mainstream Chapters (Ultramarines, Imperial Fists) are made to generally act like boyscouts in much of 40k literature. I'm not saying they should start shelling refugee camps for entertainment but they should have some kind of edge.

 

For example in the Iron Warriors Omnibus the Imperial Fist Captain took time out of his to give a long speech about the values of compassion, friendship and loyalty to the mortal defenders of a fortress. I swear to god I did not think it was possible for my eyes to roll back that far when I was reading it.

 

In the Ultramarines Omnibus, Uriel Ventris acts like such a bleeding heart for much of the story, having a gigantic saviour complex that compelled him to make decisions not out of strategic necessity but a desire to fanatically adhere to his narrow set of morals.

 

In the Word Bearer Omnibus, the Ultramarine Successor Chapter continuously made gigantic tactical errors due to their belief in a fair and honorable fight that I, despite being an Ultramarines fan, was cheering on the Word bearers gunning them down (and thereby raising the average IQ of the Ultramarine Successor Chapters in general).

 

I think that because these characters are the 'good guys' of the story, there is an effort to make them likeable to the reader. Which is understandable but sometimes it is overdone and you're left wondering how these characters are even Space Marines to begin with. Yes they should have basic morals but they should be much more cynical and hard-hearted even if they are mainstream Chapters.

 

Maybe its my personal beliefs that the notion of a fair and honorable fight is utterly laughable when you have a galaxy-wide war like in the 40k universe but I don't think authors should be afraid to have the Loyalist SMs of the story use dirty and dishonorable tactics if it means victory. Or have negative qualities in their personality (pridefulness, jealousy, disdain towards mortals etc.) 

 

In fact I think these characters would benefit greatly from such qualities. My favourite character (Cato Sicarius) uses several underhanded tricks against the Chaos invaders in 'Chapters Due' and far from making me dislike the character, made me greatly admire his ambition and commitment to winning in the most efficient way possible. 

 

Read Wrath of Iron.  The Fists and the Ultramarines try to present themselves as paragons of humanity.  Everyone else has wars to win.

[Xisor]

This was, for a very long time, my view on Space Marines in fiction. They were too human, too likeable, too three dimensional.

 

Not that they should be 2d or worse, but their full suite of humanity should be terribly amputated and severed - institutionalised, even.

 

If you want a couple of good and modern examples of Space Marines who're filly fledged, interesting characters, but that fit this bill of "more than a bit inhuman" - you need look no further than "Eye of Medusa" by David Guymer and the short story "Walker in Fire" by Peter Fehervari.

 

The former is Iron Hands, who're already "inhuman, even for a space marine" - but this is in the context of that weird Clan Raukaan supplement where they were supposed to be having a phase change into something much more human.

 

The latter is about a Salamander & chums in the Deathwatch. It's excellent. Here's a take on the Salamanders' niceness that isn't merely "do ludicrous things under the guise of being nice".

 

Both ends of the spectrum are covered in those stories, and they're exceptionally well written too.

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

This thread brings up an interesting question.

 

When was the last time any of the 'hero' characters in the Imperium-POV books did something genuinely morally reprehensible? I don't mean something done out of necessity (putting recruits through death trials to create more space marines, destroying a planet so tyranids/chaos couldn't use it etc.) but like something completely unnecessary and cruel for the simple sake of being cruel?

 

But that's conflating two different things. Space Marines aren't "nice" in the way we think of the term because they're conditioned and indoctrinated into being living weapons. The reason for this is to defend humanity from unspeakable horrors. The tragedy of the setting is that all these horrors have twisted humanity into a totalitarian collective that think's it's righteous even as it imposes horrific conditions on its subjects. Cruelty for cruelty's sake has nothing to do with this. That's a Drukhari/Dark Eldar trope.

 

EDIT: great points on the origins of the setting, mc warhammer. For myself, I think the current crop of authors have done a good enough job divorcing the current setting from the satirical underpinnings of the past. The product can still be hit and miss in terms of how well the dystopia is conveyed, but that's another topic. Honestly, this is one of the reasons why I'm not a fan of Orks: they're a holdout from the more humorous origins, and it feels jarring when straight-lace Imperial characters use Ork terminology, or when ramshackle Ork technology is juxtaposed against that of the other factions.

 

 

I totally agree with this point about conflating two different things. Wrath of Iron​ perfectly illustrates the cold hearted SM (in this case, the Iron Hands) who is indifferent to human suffering and does what he perceives as necessary to achieve the objective. He takes no pleasure in this action (as Brother Phoebus points out, this is the mark of the Dark Eldar). Xisor's example in Eye of Medusa​ is another fine example (I haven't read ​Walker In Fire ​yet). Is this what you mean by "cruel"?  I can see how it might seem so from the outside looking in. I've seen military actions in the real world that initially looked cruel (perhaps even a war crime), but upon closer examination I could say, "yeah, I see why they did that."  War is a harsh business that must often be prosecuted in a harsh way.

 

​Space Marines were designed to not be nice. Their very presence should scare the  even out of their allies. But wanton cruelty seems to me to be the prerogative of the Chaos Space Marine.