Dreams of Unity (Detailed SPOILER Discussion)

[b1soul]

So I feel that this story deserves its own thread, as so little has been published about the Thunder Warriors.

 

Main character is Dah, a Thunder Warrior. The story is written from Dah's first person perspective. Setting is the Terrna underhive.

 

Dah and several other TW (Kabe, Vezulah, Gairok) are gladiators in the stable of a renegade/exiled Astropath-turned-lanista, Tarrigata. The TW are all experiencing varying degrees of mental insanity/hallucinations and physical deterioration.

 

Kabe loses a gladiatorial contest (i.e. gets killed). Gairok loses his mind and Dah ends up searching for him and putting him down.

 

We are also introduced to a Custodes operator who slips into the underhive to track down an unknown threat.

 

While Dah is confronting Gairok, a possessed AL Astartes kills Tarrigata and mortally wounds Vezulah.

 

Dah ends up helping the Custodes destroy the possessed Astartes. A badly wounded Dah requests that the Custodes administer an honourable death and spends his last brief moments hallucinating about a great triumph of the Thunder Legion, with his comrades Vezulah, Gairok, and Kabe standing beside him, chanting "Unity" to the skies.

 

A few thoughts...

 

This had the potential to be a very powerful and poignant exploration of the Thunder Warriors and their extinction. I feel that Kyme doesn't really set up the supporting TW characters well enough. When they died, I didn't feel much emotional impact.

 

The TW PoV character fares a somewhat better. His fate tugged at my heart strings, especially the last scene.

 

I also feel that Kyme's pacing is somehow off. He jumps around quite a bit and it's a bit jarring.

 

I do like how these TW are not portrayed quite as monstrously as Ghota. This is likely because the PoV TW has quite a human voice. The TW have brotherhood and loyalty to each other (though Kyme could have emphasised their brotherhood a bit more I feel...this would have made the story more emotionally powerful).

 

What are your thoughts?

[Phoebus]

It sounds like an interesting story, and I'll look forward to reading it... when it's part of a numbered entry.

I'm glad, however, that some work is being done with the Thunder Warriors. While I didn't expect them to receive any serious amount of time in the Horus Heresy series (nor do I think they merited it, per se), I was surprised that none of the characters from The Outcast Dead got any sort of follow-up.

[mc warhammer]

It sounds like an interesting story, and I'll look forward to reading it... when it's part of a numbered entry.

I'm glad, however, that some work is being done with the Thunder Warriors. While I didn't expect them to receive any serious amount of time in the Horus Heresy series (nor do I think they merited it, per se), I was surprised that none of the characters from The Outcast Dead got any sort of follow-up.

 

there seemed to be something close to an answer on our previous chat re whether TW had the same variety of implants that an SM does...some sort of throwaway comment about astartes getting all the gimmicks/tricks...

[b1soul]

Only TW characters I know of are Arik and Ghota.

 

I think we'll see them by the end of the Heresy series.

[Calas Typhon]

I think the story, looking back, was more to feel for the main character rather than the other side characters, as we did not get their PoV

 

He and his brothers had fought for the Emperor in a golden age, he knows his time is ending but he wants to cling onto whats left of what he has for as long as possible whilst they all fight against enemies and their own mental degeneration. The short I actually respected and in the end was left quite happy. I would like to see more of the Thunder Warriors, especially Arik and Ghota who I really like.

 

Something that really makes me question is the fact that these Thunder Warriors are pretty much allowed to go about freely and not hunted down at all. Including those in OD. I mean its pretty obvious that there are hands at play scouring the planet for traitors as the introduction of the Custodes points out. It seems that the high ups are leaving the Thunder Warriors alone. Cerberus was a large gathering of Thunder Warriors which perhaps posed a threat and so, was wiped out by Warhounds. They just leave the small parties alone. It just looks like there is no thought or care into removing the last of the TW. Its indicated in the end aswell:

 

After the Custodes kills the Alpha Legionary, instead of killing the Thunder Warrior on the spot as you would expect a Custodes to do after a supposed order was given to wipe them out, sheathes the sword and thanks the TW like an ally would.

 

Only TW characters I know of are Arik and Ghota.

I think we'll see them by the end of the Heresy series.

 

Its hinted as you are probably aware that Mor and Endryd Haar are both Thunder Warriors. However I doubt that will be touched upon again until the next Blackshields story.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Warsmith Kroeger

[b1soul]

I'm aware of the Haar rumour and I think it kinda makes sense.

 

I think the Mor speculation is rather wild

[ShadowSwordmaster]

Looks like I need to check this out.

[Knockagh]

Fantastic that this has been written. I didn’t even notice it, not being interested in the calendar, but I’m definitely interested in this!!

 

I will await it’s inclusion in a numbered novel!

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I just want to say that this is ... probably the best thing I've read from Kyme in years. Just my opinion.

[b1soul]

I agree that it's better than most of Kyme's stuff...but I think it could've been even more impactful

[Mellow]

I’ve always found Kyme to be much like Swallow. Generally underwhelming.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Eh, where's the idea that Haar and/or Mor are Thunder Warriors come from? First I've heard of it.

 

Why would the Emperor keep a couple of Thunder Warrior around and hide them in the Legion recruits anyway? Wouldn't that be a bit hard to cover up (a bunch of youthful initiates and a handful of scarred giants)? Also, if he was keeping select Thunder Warriors around, why not Arik Taranis? He seems to have been a bigwig in the Thunder Regiments, withstood the degradation better than most and didn't even blame the Emperor for culling the Thunder Warriors. Seems like he'd be a shoe in if any were being kept. Wouldn't that have been an easier 'purge', by the way? Offer/order the Thunder Regiments into some kind of 'Astartes upgrade process', and make sure the majority don't survive the process, leave the chosen loyal/stable few to continue to serve.

[Calas Typhon]

Endryd has the physical build, inherent massive aggression, lack of nails, high loyalty to the throne and has a similar backstory to thunder warriors if correct. Hunted down by the imperial forces and forced to escape terra. If dreams of unity is to go by, the thunder warriors are not being hunted at all and have leave to live life atm.

 

When approached by malcadors agent he was asked if he dreams of thunder. It's highly probable.

 

Someone else might be able to cover Mor.

[Perrin]

The opening scene of a Thunder Warrior being defeated in single-combat by an apparent standard human gladiator gave me pause, but I did really enjoy this short.

 

I'm not usually a big fan of Kyme, and didn't think much of Old Earth, but this was surprisingly impactful. The Thunder Warriors plot thread hasn't really been given the development it may have deserved, but if this is the last we hear of them then I feel that it's a fitting send off.

[1ncarnadine]

edit: oof, dumb phone multipost 

Edited December 23, 2017 by LetsYouDown

[1ncarnadine]

Endryd has the physical build, inherent massive aggression, lack of nails, high loyalty to the throne and has a similar backstory to thunder warriors if correct.

 

I'm not convinced Endryd Haar has a "high loyalty to the throne." But I'm also personally against the idea that he's a super secret thunder warrior. It just doesn't click to me.

[b1soul]

How does Haar stave off the physical deterioration + insanity?

[Lucerne]

Details on the possession of the Alpha Legion/any descriptions of said AL?

[Calas Typhon]

@b1soul

 

Not sure tbh, afaik there is another short coming out this year in continuation to blackshield so we may fond out some more. Endryd is absolutely insane as mentioned by the death guard legionaries he leads. They were waiting to put him out of their misery due to the insane punishment he dished out and obvious anger issues.

 

Listen, I could be wrong, but when describing him in blackshields he is described IIRC as nothing like a spacemarine due to his size when looked upon. The references to thunder, he has obvious ties to being hunted on terra.

 

As for loyalty, he was not happy having to kill imperial forces loyal to the emperor who hounded him. If you ain't loyal anymore I doubt an insane fellow like harr will care too much.

 

I'll go over the audioshott a couple of times again tonight when I get home from work and see what I can dig up and go into more detail.

[b1soul]

Does Haar ever hallucinate intensely about past battles and enemies? That seems to be the primary form of insanity among deteriorating Thunder Warriors in Dreams of Unity...a somewhat Black Rage-esque insanity highly dangerous to all around them

[1ncarnadine]

Not that we know of. He definitely suffered an extreme psychotic break when news reached him of Horus's (and Angron's) treachery, but we don't know if he might have hallucinations like that. It's not impossible, though.

 

There are three strong pieces of evidence from the audio that could point towards him being a Thunder Warrior: he's quite large for an Astartes, he was definitely hanging out on Terra, and not-Uncavarr Noon asks him if he "still dreams of thunder." So, it's possible. But there's also just as much evidence linking him to being Astartes, and none of those 3 points in the Thunder Warrior column are concrete. They could still be interpreted otherwise. But so could a lot of the ones that I would say lean more towards Astartes. It's probably best left to the next Blackshields audio.

[b1soul]

Personally, I think it would be really cool if he were a TW

[Calas Typhon]

Out of curiosity what would you say the evidence is to him being astartes? It's probable don't get me wrong, I am just curious

[1ncarnadine]

No problem. Bored out of my skull here at a family Christmas gathering so I've had time to give that audio a re-listen. Would be nice for it to end up in print so I can CTRL+F it 

 

Spoilers for Blackshields: The False War ahead:

I'll try to find a few decent time stamped references, so that anyone with the audio can listen to them and decide for themselves. I won't timestamp absolutely everything. There's a lot of inclusive language in the audio that could be cited and it would take more time than I have. But as a general example, Josh Reynolds as the 3rd-person narrator uses phrases like "their gene-fathers," including Haar, implying he has one.

 

Now, continuing to actual time-stamps:

19:24 - Haar reflects on his #murdergoals, and thinks on how Angron is not his target because he's "not in control of his destiny." This implies familiarity with Angron, which is something a Thunder Warrior is pretty dang unlikely to have.

23:10 - Another blackshield calls Haar a War Hound, and Haar immediately becomes agitated. He then denies that he's a War Hound or an Eater of Worlds. Seems personal, no?

56:04 - this is where Noon talks about what he knows of Haar. Just a good timestamp in general.
 

So, definitely that stuff, but also all of the references to broken brotherhood. I understand there's brotherhood among the Thunder Warriors, but if Haar were a TW, would he feel his soul tearing apart whenever he has to kill Astartes? Maybe. But I would personally call put that mark under the Astartes column before the TW one.

 

Another point I want to bring up is that Haar seems to be intimately familiar with Sons of Horus unit markings, which says to me that he probably fought alongside Cthonians at some point. Or has access to information (due to his rank?) on other Legion unit markings, and obsessively studied it after he went mad? It's not a strong link, because a rogue Thunder Warrior could also still plausibly obtain that information and obsess over it.

 

Now, I'm going to dip into the FW black books for a minute. I'm not going to cite Retribution beyond his unit entry. It's pretty clear IMO that Malcador had Alum Karta falsify Haar's history in a few places, based on what happens in the audio. So Retribution is an unreliable source. But his special rules have to be representative of who and what he is, right? Maybe. Anyway, I'm going to use that to present why he might be "dreaming of thunder," but not be a TW:
 

1) Under World Eaters Renegade, he's described as part of the very first intake company of the XIIth Legion. 
2) re: the early XIIth Legion: "There are though tantalising hints towards psychological screening being used to single out the most inherently aggressive and obsessively competitive recruit in an experimental pre-selection program that may have also informed the intake of a handful of other Legions as well." from p.85 of Betrayal

3) still page 85, the early War Hounds are used almost immediately after inception to put down an insurrection on an asteroid called Cerberus. 3,000,000 civilians rise up, and have been incited by a rogue band of Thunder Warriors believed long dead already. 

 

So the "dreams of thunder" reference could just be because Haar was involved in Cerberus. His size and savagery could be due to early quirks of the Astartes process and the hyper-aggressive recruitment program. 

 

Lastly, let's consider Dreams of Unity. How would Haar survive in the dark places of the void to do his black shields thing if he has to survive off scavenged Thunder Warrior organs? It's not impossible, because all of this is made up and we can always make more things up. But in the context of the setting as it has been presented, considering all of the above... what do you think?

[bluntblade]

Endryd has the physical build, inherent massive aggression, lack of nails, high loyalty to the throne and has a similar backstory to thunder warriors if correct. Hunted down by the imperial forces and forced to escape terra. If dreams of unity is to go by, the thunder warriors are not being hunted at all and have leave to live life atm.

 

When approached by malcadors agent he was asked if he dreams of thunder. It's highly probable.

 

Someone else might be able to cover Mor.

War Hounds were always aggressive. Haar's rage also seems to have been born of Angron's betrayal.

 

As for Mor, sometimes a brute is just a brute, and there were certainly a lot of outcasts and unstable Iron Hands to build his Clan. Just like Amit was the black sheep of the Blood Angels.