Are vindicators worth taking?

[grimsanity]

I'm coming back to chaos With the change to blast weapons are vindicators worth it any more? I usually fielded 3.

[Commissar K.]

Well they are cheaper as before but still think it lacks the additional guns.

[Stross]

Recently I came accross with one funny thing with them. Read their stratagems. Nothing says, that you can't bomb with 3 of them, if you advanced or locked in melee. This is fun thing to use, only the death of single vindicator would prevent it from using.

[grimsanity]

Stress are you talking about the linebreaker one?

[yergerjo]

Stress are you talking about the linebreaker one?

Yeah it's silly. Still shooting phase, but not a shooting attack, so you can advance, fall back, pop smoke, or have 1-2 wounds left and it goes off! Also able to kinda snipe at characters since it is based off a point not a target.

 

I've used them to good effect with my Iron Hands.

[Stross]

Stress are you talking about the linebreaker one? 

 

yes

[grimsanity]

Ok. So linebreaker is an excellent reason but I go back to my original question is it worth running 3 just for linebreaker? Are their any units that work better now since templates are gone. Edited December 18, 2017 by grimsanity

[shandwen]

To me the indicator got a bit better with the loss of ordinance and templates. You can't expect to hit 4 or 5 models at once now, but it can take a having launcher and actually use it and received a drop in cost compared with the vehicles in its former weight class.

Also, if you were going to take 2, then a 3rd is a great investment for the stratigum.

[Stross]

Ok. So linebreaker is an excellent reason but I go back to my original question is it worth running 3 just for linebreaker? Are their any units that work better now since templates are gone. 

 

For me I think not. The small range not allow to stay inside your own deployment zone and it is hard to hide them from army with strong melee potential. Their toughness 8 is not bad, but lascannon don't care about it. 

And they still suffer penalty for moving, so is going to hit on 4+. 

Can be played, but without stratagem lose most of their potential

[Panzer]

I wouldn't take them either. They are basically just 1d3/1d6 Lascannons.

3 of them unlock a nice stratagem but as soon as you lose one of them you can't use it anymore and with their range it's not even hard for the enemy to destroy one.

 

Imo the vindicator would need a complete rework for how it works.

Edited December 18, 2017 by sfPanzer

[sebs_evo7]

^as panzer said i would wait until gw rewrites their weapon rules which in this edition is fairly likely if we let them know

[Panzer]

Actually I don't think it's very likely at all.

 

It seems more likely to me that GW is going to ignore such big problems if it requires too much effort fixing while they keep working on pushing their Primaris line for loyalists and whatever they have planned for CSM.

Probably more daemon vehicles and legion specific stuff.

Edited December 18, 2017 by sfPanzer

[grimsanity]

So what’s a good replacement? I play iron warriors in past editions I’d have the artillery shell enemies and roll tanks and mortars with 2 small squads of troops. I was thinking maybe one or two Scorpius or maybe laser destroyers to replace the vindicators. Edited December 18, 2017 by grimsanity

[Panzer]

Since it's basically just a bunch of Lascannon shots the obvious replacement would be a Lascannon Predator. ^^

[Tamika]

Aren’t they toughness 8 instead of predators toughness 7?

[Panzer]

Aren’t they toughness 8 instead of predators toughness 7?

Yeah and Predators have twice the range (better target selection and not having to move to get in range with a Heavy weapon) and more reliable amount of shots. They are obviously not the exact same unit lol

[Stross]

So what’s a good replacement? I play iron warriors in past editions I’d have the artillery shell enemies and roll tanks and mortars with 2 small squads of troops. I was thinking maybe one or two Scorpius or maybe laser destroyers to replace the vindicators. 

 

If you go to Forge World it is better to take Raptor Assault gunship. - 1 to hit, no penlty for moving, can have 34 shots of dakka and 4 lascannon, hit on 3+. 

Since not so many things can fly and kill it, it can do some damage and cost like 3 vindicators. 

CSM don't have good artillary or shooting units except Predators. Or you can take 3-5 Basilisks and hide them behind your lines. Even without rerolls they rock.

[Commissar K.]

I wouldn't take them either. They are basically just 1d3/1d6 Lascannons.

3 of them unlock a nice stratagem but as soon as you lose one of them you can't use it anymore and with their range it's not even hard for the enemy to destroy one.

 

Imo the vindicator would need a complete rework for how it works.

Agreed, it's one of the units that makes me miss templates. To the point where I also wonder why (especially for this smooth edition) they where completely removed. I do understand why the flamer template is gone (arguably too good) but the AoE 3 and 5 are examples of templates that are actually very interesting to incorporate into a game because suddenly placement has an additional value for ranged attacks too. 

 

To me a band aid fix is possible however, that would simple require the Vindicator and other siege weapons to interract more with Fortifications. Heavy damage/auto hits on it and all that. This would only make them good in a niche situation but at least for some games it would then be really good in that situation where you would narratively speaking use it for. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Panzer]

Even with templates the Vindicator was mostly just meh tho.

Also templates got removed not because they were good (or not) but because it often caused arguments about how many models are actually hit and caused people to feel forced to spread out their units all the time which was just annoying to play.

[Commissar K.]

True but at least it would represent itself as 'density breaker', be it against infantry blobs or infantry in a building and all that. 

Next to the Laspred I also think that a Helbrute with twin linked Lascannon and/or Missle launcher is an interesting support choice too. Knowing not all need it but if you like the visual idea of big robot support I can say it isn't bad either.

[Stross]

Next to the Laspred I also think that a Helbrute with twin linked Lascannon and/or Missle launcher is an interesting support choice too. Knowing not all need it but if you like the visual idea of big robot support I can say it isn't bad either.

 

 

But my tests show, that it is necessary to take at least 3 of them and Deredeo behind them. Or just give them 2 fists and push forward, so enemy is going to try to kill them with all he have. Because World Eaters for example will get 6 attacks. 

[Kierdale]

How about the FW Vindicator with the quad-barrelled lascannon (the name of which escapes me right now)?

[Nym]

Right now, it's garbage because it's got 50% less firepower for 29% less points but it's actually less survivable than a Predator (despite being T8) due to its weapon short range.

 

To be on-par with a Predator's efficiency, a Vindicator should get d6 shots instead of d3. Admittedly, almost all former "blast" weapons should have their number of shots increased (not just Leman Russes...).

[Commissar K.]

 

Next to the Laspred I also think that a Helbrute with twin linked Lascannon and/or Missle launcher is an interesting support choice too. Knowing not all need it but if you like the visual idea of big robot support I can say it isn't bad either.

 

 

But my tests show, that it is necessary to take at least 3 of them and Deredeo behind them. Or just give them 2 fists and push forward, so enemy is going to try to kill them with all he have. Because World Eaters for example will get 6 attacks.

3 Helbrutes? Yes. But vs Vindis I think you need 3 of those too if they want to be relevant.

 

As before though Legion context matters a lot too but one random Vindicator just isnt ideal. One random Helbrute or other Daemonic engine such as Maulerfiend can still archieve a lot and isnt far removed from the cost of a single Vindicator.

[Panzer]

How about the FW Vindicator with the quad-barrelled lascannon (the name of which escapes me right now)?

No clue about it's rules but imo it's....not the most beautiful tank. :P

 

Right now, it's garbage because it's got 50% less firepower for 29% less points but it's actually less survivable than a Predator (despite being T8) due to its weapon short range.

 

To be on-par with a Predator's efficiency, a Vindicator should get d6 shots instead of d3. Admittedly, almost all former "blast" weapons should have their number of shots increased (not just Leman Russes...).

Totally agreed. Each former blast weapons random shot profile is off by about d3/d6 imo.