8th Edition: Controversial Rules and Mechanics,

[Schlitzaf]

Gonna try this, hopefully it won’t end in pits of chaos. So three conversations have been reoccurring to lesser or greater degree. So instead of shouting fests, I decided to make a thread.

 

The idea is to spend one week on each topic.

Week 1: Character, this affects every army and thus be first. The focus points; Joining vs Seperate Units and how the rules interact. Related points for discussion, Intervention, Buff Characters and Combat Characters. Other aspects for discussion character customization

 

Week 2: Smite and Pyskers: Every army beside Necrons and Tau have to deal with Pyskers in some capacity. So this is week 2. Focus discussion; Limitations in Matched Play And Smite/Mortal Wounds. Side discussion how non-physic armies should or should not be vulnerable to each other.

 

Week 3: Allies, the final week and focused generally on why you do or not do Ally. The last one do to larger percentage of armies without allies (Tau, Orks and Necrons). Side Discussion Imperium, Aeldari and Chaos Keyword.

 

Week 4: Rock > Scissors. Tied to week one and two discussion explicitly. What should hard counters do and what should they not do.

 

—————

Ground Rules:

One cannot make statements and make them be self proving. If you said something is too cheap, say why. For example, if you say a Crusader Unit at 15 Points is too cheap for being easy to bring 3+/3+. Compare similar units, tarpit cheap hard to kill. Necron Lychgaurd perhaps. (While Lychgaurd are more expensive it’s the idea).

 

Second, bigger pictures not hyper focused one. This requires you look at entire ruleset not one explicit interaction. You are presumed to have knowledge of other codexes. Any case for or against should be understood in that way.

 

Third, while Mathhammer is a theoretical construction based on specifics battlefield scenerios it does inform aspects of our game and gives us hard detail to work with and start debate from. Furthermore if you quote an annodotal account for your argument. You should also explain the math behind what happened.

 

My 3 Lascannons could in theory one shot a Leman Russ. But it’s less then 1% chance I roll high enough damage. That said I can on average get about 7-9 wounds which could disable most tanks. So while the one shot an outlier, if you wish to use the outlier to broach the fragility of tanks and the multiple damage weapons that is reasonable.

 

Fourth and finally, you are expected to have an acceptable understanding of other codexes and armies. If you quote an example or say x is unbalanced because it destroys my army y. Every example should have two examples. From two different armies.

 

Now then these are not hard and fast rules. No one will presumably bite each other’s head off. But I simply wrote them because reasoned discussion not shouting matches

 

—————-

Characters, joining vs seperate Units

 

I prefer seperate for thematic reasons and to avoid the issue of “throwing every character into a squad”. However I do believe for certain actions (charging) a character should be able to join with a unit. The question of hiding or not hiding characters and how one is better than the other.

 

I personally enjoy not suddenly having a character’s squad murder then despite having his bros next to him be gets gunned down. Furthermore their are trade offs. If you bubble wrap a character so he cannot be shot or attacked it means the character cannot fight in close combat.

 

Eg. my Crusader Squad is charged by an Ork Boy. Because my Marshall lacks fly Keyword despite being within 3” I cannot jump into combat to help my men.

 

This is espacially relevant for certain armies who are reliant on buff congo’s. Sang Priest for sake of example. If you try and buff two squads, unless both squads are mixed or small you will be forced to resort to Congo line. The standard buff range is 6” or 12” circle. That means if you are buff circling a wide area, a character moves 6” during their turn. You had to remove proper casualties or you need to a long charge. Just being 3 models wide (so 6” by 3” triangle) assuming 1” base. Means minimum 7” charge if you were charging your squad so more 8”-9”. If you were close together instead your more compact and less mobile.

 

So to end I prefer the independent vs solo. Because abusing the aura bubbles for aura characters has trade offs and their advantages and disadvantages.

[Race Bannon]

Thank you and good luck :tu:

[Warhead01]

 

 

I personally enjoy not suddenly having a character’s squad murder then despite having his bros next to him be gets gunned down. Furthermore their are trade offs. If you bubble wrap a character so he cannot be shot or attacked it means the character cannot fight in close combat.

 

Eg. my Crusader Squad is charged by an Ork Boy. Because my Marshall lacks fly Keyword despite being within 3” I cannot jump into combat to help my men. 

I don't know about that. The Orks charged so you pick your casualties to open a spot for a pile in for you character unit who only has to be with in 1" at the end of that pile in to fight. 

 

Sorry, it just jumped out at me. I think some diagrams would help illustrate what your thinking because it does come down to where models are physically places on the table. 

I'm not sure I know what aura abuse you are referring to from you example as I have no idea what that characters rules are.  I would ask, is it really abuse or just a game mechanic every faction has in some form or other?  And what makes abuse?

 

[Schlitzaf]

Oh I was referring to heroics interventioning there. I could definitely make room to charge with my Marshall the following turn. And Marshall is the BT name for a captain

[Gentlemanloser]

Characters and joining units.

 

Currently character can be 'joined' or rather screened, by any unit in the game.

 

This can lead to characters being screened by high toughness, high wound Tanks or Monstrous creatures.

 

Due to the way buff auras work in 8th, joining units wouldn't stop auras from working.

 

Character buffs now effect multiple units, which can be much more potent than old buffs which could only effect a single unit.

 

Restricting characters to having to join infantry units to gain screening protection (and this could/should apply only to shooting attacks and not CC) would remove the ability for Tanks or MCs to screen, making characters more vulnerable.

 

There is a concern with deep strike charges, but characters joining units for alpha strike ds charges just make them more spikey. Instead of potentially making 3 rolls and getting 1, 2 or 3 units into CC, you would only make one.

 

And could get all three in or none.

 

The current targeting rules could be easily changed to joining rules. Something like;

 

"Characters with a wound statistic of less than 10 who end the movement phase in coherency with a friendly infantry, bike or cavalry unit join that unit (multiple units, player chooses). While joined to a unit the character loses the Character keyword (if this is even necessary) and cannot be individually targeted for shooting attacks unless by units with the sniper keyword. If that unit moves in the psychic or charge phase the joined character moves with them.

 

If any psychic powers are used on the unit any joined characters are also effected.

 

If the character ends any phase out of coherency they automatically leave the joined unit."

 

How does that sound?

 

Edit. Rules for mixed Toughness and mixed movement units already exist. So that should pose no problems.

 

Edit. Added character keyword clause.

 

Edit. Slight updates.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Schlitzaf]

Hmm I honestly don’t see the point. Sense it just add a series of clunky checks and potential gotcha’s. So let’s first tackle the question; what is your intention with the rule change? Is this mostly to stop Razors (and the like) from blocking characters, or because you want have your characters joining Squads.

 

As currently word how does your Rule work with my Deathrider Commander? Does his fellow ponies no longer protect him. Or SM Bikers and Bike Captain. I’d rather have the actual rule be changed to only units that share unit type or infantry can body block a character if that is the intention.

 

It just seems the rule makes an elegant if sometimes eyebrow raising rule to a clunky rule that slows the game down as both players go through checks and play musical models to maintain character coherency with squad.

 

Also how would that work if a wounded character joined a squad per RAW that is a dead character. The game breaks mechanically because you must take wounds on injured models first. Which model takes the wound? If we have 3-4 injured characters play musical models with a squad espacially apothecary style characters.

 

I will concede the apothecary needs to start injured for musical models to be effective here but the concept still applies. Which the current way wound allocation works and my personal desire to not go back playing musical models I am not certain this a good way.

 

(Eighth we play model conga which itself is an issue related to musical models. And espacially deep strike charging)

[Gentlemanloser]

It's to remove the clunky targeting rules. They can be gamed and break immersion for some. To others they simply don't make sense.

 

Not familiar with a deathrider commander. Why would it not work with him? There's no issues with bikes. We already have mixed squads with bikes in them with the deathwatch.

 

Wouldn't slow the game down. Everyone needs to play with coherency anyway. It's not an added step.

 

Already wounded is a good point. You could allow the player to choose, but you might want to rule that wounds are always taken off joined characters last. The squad members protect thier leaders.

 

Multiple already wounded characters? Players choice.

 

Yeah I've had musical congas recently with two 30 devilgaunt squads congoing a gaunt or two to keep them both in a tervigons reroll 1 aura, while advancing as many as possible into shooting range.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Schlitzaf]

Your as written only allows characters to join infantry units. SM Bikes Squad and AM Rough Riders, would in way you wrote that rule not be able to be joined by their ‘leader’ characters.

 

A SM Bike Captain couldn’t join a SM Bike Squad for example. Also do players choose each time they take a wound? If so your gonna see lists abusing that by having characters with 2+ Saves starting game wound with apothacaries to keep them alive but wound. And if one of them is near death start taking saves on the other character in the squad. Or in the End Game you’ll see wounded characters just joining squads and this accidently happens.

 

Or worse you have a unit like the Culexus Assassin join a squad or something like BA Librarian and then their buffs or abilities would apply the squad.

 

The issue with squad joining unless you severely limit or make it so the character loses his rules. You can have events or situation that break the game. Have a character and his move, then move the squad up. Maintaining Congo line with the character. You just increase the character charge range by 6 effective inches.

 

Or having a character like Gulliman join a Terminator Squad and by RAW be able to leap back to the backfield.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[Gentlemanloser]

Eh thought bikers kept infantry. Easy then, allow characters to join infantry or biker squads. Edit. Non character infantry/bike unit. So you can't have characters join characters.

 

Culuxes assassin buff wouldn't work. You're targeting the unit not the assassin. A culexes would still make snipers use bs 6+ though.

 

Yup. Don't have an issue with your last two points.

 

You Congo line that unit to charge with character at back, character still needs to get within 1" after pile in to actually fight.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Schlitzaf]

What about my Ponies? Can my Deathriders Commander not join his DeathRiders? Or Chaos Lords on steed. Or a character like Karanak and his Khorne Flesh Hounds Escort. How about Chariots? Having characters join Units is not a bad thing and can work fine (4th-6th showed that well enough. The larger issue here it is not a simple rule change. You’ll likely need to write another page and then page worth of FAQ’s. And it’s very easy for something to slip through the cracks.

 

Through aside doing a quick skim, I have found characters say when this model does X so having join won’t confer rules for the most part (thankfully). Through that stated per raw a SM character joining a squad of another chapter will in fact confer their force chapters tactic onto the squad and vice versa.

 

Also as much as I enjoy bantering with Gentle, we cannot be only two people with thoughts? And forgot to say earlier some folks think having one character buffing 3-4 Squads by cramming or playing model conga is abusive

Edited December 17, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[Gentlemanloser]

Don't know deathriders? They not infantry/bikes?

 

Good point in multiple chapter tactics / craftfleet / hivefleet etc bonuses.

 

Off the top of my head not sure what to do with those. Will think on it.

 

Perhaps the simplest solution is characters lose those rules and only the units applies.

 

Downside to getting protection from joining a squad.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Schlitzaf]

Their cavalry. And Chaos has several characters models who are beasts (Karanak being the most notable example). Personally Gentle I’d just have it so they have to share every Keyword but except one for a character to be able to join a unit. (With a special addendum for Inquisition style Units). To solve part of the issue Edited December 17, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[Captain Idaho]

Haven't GW addressed, or started to, in the beta rules? Namely, characters cannot screen other characters.

 

With that fix, I'd apply only the following;

 

- characters within coherency range of a unit with the same unit type can charge together in the fight phase. Roll once to see how far they can charge that turn and each unit can move that far in the assault phase, provided they end within coherency.

[Toxichobbit]

In previous editions Assassins have been forbidden from joining squads. I see no reason why that wouldn't also apply to the above proposed changes. They are, after all, independent operatives, not leaders. That neatly solves the issue of the Culexus, although I'm not quite sure why it's an issue in the first place as it has no buff abilities - why would it's abilities suddenly affect a squad it joined?

 

A lot of this discussion seems to centre around the death stars of 6th & 7th edition. I don't remember death stars being so much of a problem in editions previous to 6th (and if they were it was generally because one unit was too powerful, not that there was a super abusive combo of multiple units). The reason for this is simple, you couldn't join multiple characters to a unit. That one change in 6th (I think it was 6th) that allowed you to pile multiple characters into a unit was responsible for a ton of balance issues. Repeal it and you eliminate the issues, while making the game more streamlined. Therefore, I'd strongly suggest any theoretical changes that allow characters to join units limit it to one character per unit.

 

In addition there needs to be limits on which characters can join units. You've limited characters to joining Infantry, Bikers and I presume Cavalry, but that's not enough as per the examples above (Assassins) and below (Monsters). There needs to be limits as to which characters can join which unit. This should probably be a combination of keyword based (Monsters cannot join units being a general rule) and case-by case basis (Assassins cannot join units as per a rule on their Datacard).

 

That said, this isn't me coming down on the side of joining characters to units again. I'm actually currently against that, but I have no real balance argument to support my stance (yet - one might come later). What I can say to support it is that free floating characters feels more organic than previous editions with characters tied to units. That is to say it's more fun and makes the game feel like it's flowing better. It's difficult to explain without sounding wishy-washy, but I think it's a combination of moving characters feels easier without having to define if they have joined a squad or not, while having them independent just feels, more heroic. There isn't really anything mechancially wrong with characters joining units, assuming it's done correctly and there certainly is mechanical issues with them being independent (LOS shenannigans), but I'd rather fix the current issues than go back to the old system. Obviously that's all IMO, so take it as you will.

 

Yeah I've had musical congas recently with two 30 devilgaunt squads congoing a gaunt or two to keep them both in a tervigons reroll 1 aura, while advancing as many as possible into shooting range.

 

With all due respect, that's a less than ideal example. Tyranids have been conga lining their units since 3rd in order to keep Synapse and Instinctive Behaviour in check. Furthermore, in regard to your proposed changes the Tervigon is a Monster so presumably won't be able to join an infantry squad. Conga line Gaunts for it's buff would still happen. I feel that's a fair assumption as I doubt many people think the idea of stuff like Hive Tyrants and Tervigons gaining an additional 30 wounds from Gaunts will improve the game.

 

Like you I've been facing conga line Gaunts recently, but it's nothing new. I've been facing it for several decades now. The only difference is that after a decade of being awful Tyranids are actually good again, so it feels more egregious.

 

 

[Schlitzaf]

Hobbits what changed in 6th is abilities that had previously not confer in 5th, became conferable by characters joining squads (Slow and Purposeful, Counter Attack, Infilitrate, Stealth and Hit&Run are ones that explicitly come to mind). Previously to 6th Ed squads and character normally did not confer abilities if they did it was a limited number (Furious Charge being the best example). And Deathstars did exist with Nob Bikers for the first half of the Edition, and then GK Paladins Or Draigowing for the second half of the edition (Draigo was not competitive because issues scoring). Hammerators also became a Deathstar-Lite or my personal definition a Hammer or “Push Unit”. Cheaper than Deathstars but similar role (Deathstars being the army while Hammers/Push are to take objectives and be supported by rest of the army).

 

And the reason abilities would confer if its abilities said “this unit etc etc etc” (thankfully it says this model). And I agree with Character feeling like characters. Instead of being glorified super sargeants they can roam and bolster your army where needed without being fried by random Lascannons. That said the various aura’s characters have now also help

 

And Idaho, it has been. This particular discussion more about switch between joining or independent switch that happened from 7th-8th (and essentially by implication which is better)

Edited December 17, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[Gentlemanloser]

I like the idea of like for like keyword joining.

 

But does it really need to be?

 

Deathwatch shows mixed unit types can work.

 

I still wouldn't allow any characters with more than 9 wounds the ability to join squads though. Should have mentioned that above.

[Schlitzaf]

The issue is you need to then note what units/keywords can be joined by characters or do the reverse what types cannot be joined. I think we return to the core issue it’s alot of rules to fix something that has already been solved by the current rules to fix a minor if admittedly important issue regarding case scenerios.

 

That not to say the solution cannot be done. But if you could Gentle rewrite the rule with all the various exceptions and more we discussed compare it the two or three lines the rule currenlty has

Edited December 17, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[Gentlemanloser]

But it's not solved. There's still targetting issues (and to a lesser extent HI, but i don't think we need to revisit that! ) that would both be solved via removal if characters joined units again.

 

A small tweak, two options;

 

1. "Characters with a wound statistic of less than 10 who end the movement phase in coherency with a friendly infantry, bike, cavalry or monster unit that does not contain the character keyword joins that unit (multiple units, player chooses). While joined to a unit the character loses the Character keyword and cannot be individually targeted for shooting attacks unless by units with the sniper keyword. If that unit moves in the psychic or charge phase the joined character moves with them.

 

If any psychic powers are used on the unit any joined characters are also effected.

 

If the character ends any phase out of coherency they automatically leave the joined unit and regain the character keyword."

 

2. "Characters with a wound statistic of less than 10 who end the movement phase in coherency with a friendly infantry, bike, cavalry or monster unit that does not contain the character keyword, that they share the same nonfaction keyword with join that unit (multiple units, player chooses). While joined to a unit the character loses the Character keyword and cannot be individually targeted for shooting attacks unless by units with the sniper keyword. If that unit moves in the psychic or charge phase the joined character moves with them.

 

If any psychic powers are used on the unit any joined characters are also effected.

 

If the character ends any phase out of coherency they automatically leave the joined unit and regain the character keyword."

 

 

Do we also want to stop cross faction joining? Is not an issue for matched play and who really cares about open. ;)

 

Do we also need something about mixing chapter tactics as well?

 

Edit. I suppose i also need to add to the end that once left the unit the character regains the character keyword...

Edited December 17, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Wargamer]

I don't have a problem with the character rules. In fact, I quite like them. But I don't use big name characters - where it up to me, they wouldn't have rules at all. If you're including Guilliman, it should be done in some crazy event game, not as part of your standard list.

 

Anyway, I admit that I have been very nervous about the survivability of characters. In fact, I suspect that I should be throwing my characters into fights more often. Overall, I prefer the new method. I won't mourn the loss of deathballs, but I do feel like dedicated bodyguard units, like Guard Command Squads feel kind of adrift now.

[Gentlemanloser]

GW cover some bodyguard units with the ability to move wounds from characters into the bodyguards as mortal wounds.

 

Like Accolytes and Tyrant Guard.

 

More units should gain this rule if joining units is out. And bodyguard units could probably benefit from sharing psychic powers as well.

 

Like making Paladin bodyguards (as that's thier fluff) and letting them gate with the character they are bodyguarding.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Schlitzaf]

Gentle now from a game flow, let us return to the original issue

Monsters and Vehicle Blocking Characters. We now have Carnifexes able to block/join but not my Sentinels?

Second as seen in the Rules thread their is the keyword issue. With fly and otherwise (for all that it matters if I use get send in next wave will my characters also be revived with the infantry squads?).

 

And you forgot to include the wound and saving rule in that option. That alongside rule confering or non confering (and that extensive baggage of rules that requires) bloats character Rules from being 2-3 lines.

 

The original issue is targeting, and how hard it is target bubble wrapped characters or characters behind Land Raiders and otherwise. If Someone does that their is a distinctive issue being well static. Innately this isn’t a bad idea but its a lot of extra baggage. When if your intention is to stop tanks and monsters from body blocking adding “units over T7 are ignored”. Through now we got the idea of what you want your rule to be.

 

Why shouldn’t Mech And Zilla Lists Characters be ‘immune’. Are they that much more killy than infantry?

[Gentlemanloser]

Nah send in the next wave wouldn't be a problem. When the unit is dead the character is no longer joined to them. So wouldn't come back with the strat.

 

We could add vehicles under 10w. But while that would stop LR it wouldn't stop Razors or Dreads. Should Razors and Dreads be able to shield characters from shooting?

 

Yeah missed off the unit takes wounds first bit. My bad.

 

Why are keyword sharing an issue? Deathwatch kill teams do it. But i don't feel strongly about it either way and would be ok with the less potent version of losing keywords.

 

If we don't join characters, how do we stop Razors from shielding characters, and stop HI from being gamed?

 

Also how do we bring back immersion for folk who dont gell with 'you can't shoot my character in the open on his own. Because behind you is a squad of mine who's closer'.

[Mileposter]

While I've seen a lot of awesome discussion on how Characters joining squads COULD be done, I haven't seen any reasoning for why it SHOULD. The abusiveness of characters is being addressed - so what does this rules change accomplish? What is the rules lackimg that this is imtended to provide?

[Schlitzaf]

Penth was trying to get their by showing how it’s not a simple rules change for something of little benefit. Also for Razors, Gentle the answer is as I said earlier.

T7 and higher models don’t count for character blocking. But the related question is as I said why shouldn’t they. Is an Assault Cannon 114 points (12 > 8 > 5.32 > 2.66 vs 10 > 6.66 > 3.33 > 1.11) while nearly double killing power of the Tacticals (Intercessors for the curious 6 > 4 > 2 > 1) once Tacticals and Intercessors are in rapid (20 > 13.32 > 6.16 > 2.05 and 12 > 8 > 4 > 2) Razor becomes half a marine more effective. Throw rerolls 12 > 8 > 9.32 > 6.11 > 7.11 > 3.65 vs 10 > 6.66 > 7.76 > 3.88 > 4.50 > 1.5 and 6 > 4 > 4.66 > 2.33 > 2.68 > 1.34. Then rapid 20 > 13.66 > 15.88 > 7.98 > 8.98 > 3 and 12 > 8 > 9.32 > 4.66 > 5.4 > 2.7) Hileriously Intercessors benefit the least of those units.

 

But is the on average 1-2 dead Marines mean that Razors shouldn’t block? Also gaming heroic means you cannot he hiding behind screens

[Servant of Dante]

Exactly what Pentharian said. I think we can all agree that characters could Ben made to join units. I also think we can agree that it would take a significant amount of cases and exceptions to be explained. One I haven’t seen mentioned yet is how psykers would work joined to units.

 

The only issues I can think of that this would address is charging with units, psychic buffs for those armies that rely on them, and targeting issues.

 

The charge thing is really quite simple to fix in the current system if desired, just allow a character within, say, 3” of a friendly unit that makes a successful charge to move with that unit, perhaps with a line limiting this to a once per turn thing or only characters that aren’t already in combat (there are several ways you could choose to define in combat for this case).

 

For psychic buffs, changes to individual psychic powers would be preferable in my opinion. There are only a few that really need the help anyway.

 

The current targeting rules are a bit annoying, but the latest beta fix seems like a step in the right direction. I feel that having characters join would add more weird interactions than it would remove. It would also destroy the idea of having 2 characters around a single squad, for example it’s common to run a Mistress of Repentance and a Ministorum Priest with Repentia. If one of them has to stand out in the open this isn’t really feasible.