Legion Glaive: rules and tactics

[Cadmus Tyro]

Hi all,

 

I’m currently working on a Legion Glaive for the my Iron Hands.

 

I’ve been searching through the forum and other websites to gain a better understanding of its rules, tactics and people’s personal experience with the tank.

 

I thought it would be good to have a thread dedicated to the Glaive.

 

The Rules - or my understanding of them so far:

 

Haywire - So the volkite carronade has the haywire USR. Which, according to the 7th rule book means when you target a vehicle you use the haywire USR instead of the strength value of the weapon. It also suggests you only get the haywire hits and not the strength hits as well. Some people online seem to think you get both. I’m happy to accept it does but I can’t justify via RAW!

 

Interestingly mechanicum units are susceptible to haywire. There is a slim chance of causing additional wounds (on top of deflagrate) thanks to cybernetic resilience.

 

Heavy beam - some people seem to compare this to the “beam” rule used for certain psychic powers. I think the rules are entirely different, although they share some mechanics.

 

The rules are fairly straightforward until you consider how the beam interacts with terrain.

 

Firstly, as per 7th edition terrain rules, it seems the beam hits models on all terrain levels that fall under its 1” area of effect. With ignores cover, this will be brutal for infantry in city fight conditions.

 

Secondly, the beam is only stopped by large intact buildings (ie those with hull points) and superheavy vehicles. Therefore it seems that the beam will ignore LoS blocking terrain. For example - it will hit a unit hiding behind an intact ruin wall.

 

This needs to be seen in context with the standard shooting rules. So you cannot target the infantry squad behind the LoS blocking terrain, because you cannot opt to shoot a unit with no line of sight. If however you target another unit and the beam passes over the concealed unit, this seems reasonable.

 

Thirdly, what on earth happens when you have a unit sheltering behind a hill? RAW suggests the same as the above.

 

Primary weapon - many have been making the point that having the primary weapon rule is useless if you are rolling to penetrate using the haywire chart.

 

Firstly, the primary weapon rule allows you to apply vehicle damage to a superheavy via the vehicle damage chart. Although a penetrating hit is unlikely.

 

Secondly, and I feel this point is perhaps debatable, does it allow you to re-roll the haywire results as it would on a standard strength based hit? After all, you are still rolling for vehicle penetration.

 

Deflagrate - This is the rule that makes the Glaive so powerful against infantry. The deflagrate rule specifies that only models in range of the weapon can be wounded. I presume when we apply this rule to a heavy beam weapon, as long as the model is within 48” of the Glaive, then hits can be applied.

 

Towering Monstrosity - this is a fairly recent rule applied to titans (warhounds etc). It essentially makes your >600point tank useless, well apart from stripping void shields and a few lascannon shots.

 

I cannot justify this via RAW, but would it make sense to apply the strength hits here instead? Would appreciate your thoughts on this one.

 

Shock pulse - certain units (sicaran venator, cerebrus etc) force superheavy vehicles to snap fire. As the beam weapon does not require BS to shoot, it cannot fire. As per the 7th edition snap fire rules.

 

There is a fairly legitimate looking FW response email circulating various sites suggesting it can fire. But we all know how accurate and valuable FW rules answers are ;)

 

I would love you to discuss the above rules but I also want to gain your insight on tactics as well.

 

Is it a competitive LoW choice?

 

To all you Glaive users out there, have at it!

 

Cadmus

[The Ironic Warrior]

I field a Glaive regularly and I can tell you it is a TERRIFYING force on the battlefield. The other player will usually do everything they can to destroy it or avoid it. It's pricey, but it's worth it - mine has managed to kill it's points worth in a single shot multiple times when a shot is lined up right so it does make an impact.

 

The Glaive is not for superheavy hunting necessarily - what you want to do is end your shot on a Superheavy, but not make it your primary shot target. Yes it will do very little to a Titan, but that's not what it's there for. It will do horrible things to anything smaller though. Typhons, Cerberus Destroyers, Baneblade variants and similar will have a slightly more unfortunate time with it, as the D3+1 Haywire hits with AP2 are pretty nasty for stripping away hullpoints, plus the Lascannons are good for stripping hullpoints on the main target, or secondary targets.

 

To maximize the Glaive you really want to use the Armoured Breakthrough lists with it as the fast moving vehicles support it really nicely, but tbh it will fit in pretty much any list you want (Funniest of all is the Recon Company as it can start on the field unlike the other Heavy Support choices in the army).

In answer to your questions on its operation though, the way we run it locally is you basically pick a level on a ruin to hit, and you just use the tape measure to literally draw a line to see if you'd realistically hit anything on the way - if you do, 10/10 act as normal, if not then maybe lower the shot to hit other things. 

Also with the hill thing, this is a tricky one. The beam CAN hit them provided that it hits an enemy unit first. As long as the hill isn't wider than a bastion, the shot can technically pass through it and hit them.

Shock pulse is one of the only things ANY Superheavy gives a major fuss about, so focus fire on Venators if they exist as they will cause you to snapfire as they will always penetrate if you let them (Literally sods law in effect will mean the worst will always happen)

Hope this has been helpful and useful :) 

[Cadmus Tyro]

Thanks for your insight Yaaar’s Revenge, I really enjoy hearing people’s experience with units. I’m interested to know why your gaming group chose to limit its effects to one ruin level when all other blast and templates weapons hit multiple levels? Was it deemed overpowered?

 

Cadmus

[Gorgoff]

I don't think that a Glaive hits several levels of buildings since it doesn't use a template or a blast.

 

"Typhons, Cerberus Destroyers, Baneblade variants and similar will have a slightly more unfortunate time with it, as the D3+1 Haywire hits with AP2 are pretty nasty for stripping away hullpoints"

 

Superheavys are immune to Haywire.

But it's still d3+1 hits with S8 AP2 Primary Weapon.

[Slips]

Only Titans are immune to haywire, everything else is affected normally unless you can find a book/page reference that states otherwise.

[Cadmus Tyro]

I don't think that a Glaive hits several levels of buildings since it doesn't use a template or a blast.

"Typhons, Cerberus Destroyers, Baneblade variants and similar will have a slightly more unfortunate time with it, as the D3+1 Haywire hits with AP2 are pretty nasty for stripping away hullpoints"

Superheavys are immune to Haywire.

But it's still d3+1 hits with S8 AP2 Primary Weapon.

I think Haywire immunity is a left over rule from 6th, it was removed for 7th but then added to specific Titan units in later HH books. If you search for and read previous discussions around the Glaive, this has already been debated.

 

I appreciate that the Carronade is not a template or blast weapon. However, the heavy beam weapon rules state the all models caught within “the beam area” take hits. As there is no vertical height limit for the beam area I would say all models under the line are caught, hence multi level hits. It seems the easiest way to apply the shot. Other wise, if you choose to hit the second level of a building and there is another unit in a separate building behind but on the first level, could you hit the second unit? Your interpretation adds unecessary complications.

 

But it’s far from clear in the rule wording, hence the creation of this thread!

 

Interesting that you would advocate using strength hits in the event of haywire immunity. How do you justify that with the wording of the haywire rule in the 7th edition book?

 

Thanks for your input, it’s great to debate this!

 

Cadmus

Edited December 18, 2017 by Cadmus Tyro

[Fangbanger]

Yeah haywire affects all but titans.

 

I face a Glaive often... it's disgusting.

 

Just watching whole units get wipped out in 1 hit, often 2 and vehicles is sublime.

 

It's a pain to take down too as you really gotta focus it.

 

Great super heavy - devastating if played well yet fairly costed I feel

[The Ironic Warrior]

Thanks for your insight Yaaar’s Revenge, I really enjoy hearing people’s experience with units. I’m interested to know why your gaming group chose to limit its effects to one ruin level when all other blast and templates weapons hit multiple levels? Was it deemed overpowered?

 

Cadmus

The reason is because it's a beam effectively, and while a blast could make sense hitting multiple levels (Shrapnel, shockwaves, whatever you want to use to justify) a precision beam like the Carronade isn't going to hit more than one floor. It's only 1" wide, so even in 3D space it can't hit anything more so we run with that as it makes the most sense

 

[The Ironic Warrior]

I don't think that a Glaive hits several levels of buildings since it doesn't use a template or a blast.

 

"Typhons, Cerberus Destroyers, Baneblade variants and similar will have a slightly more unfortunate time with it, as the D3+1 Haywire hits with AP2 are pretty nasty for stripping away hullpoints"

 

Superheavys are immune to Haywire.

But it's still d3+1 hits with S8 AP2 Primary Weapon.

And yeah as previously said, superheavies are not immune to haywire, just the Titans with the specific rule (Towering monstrosity I think it is) 

 

[Cadmus Tyro]

Thanks again for your input Yaaar’s revenge. It seems most people are playing he Glaive in different ways. Anyone have any tournament experience or guidance issued from said events?

[The Ironic Warrior]

Thanks again for your input Yaaar’s revenge. It seems most people are playing he Glaive in different ways. Anyone have any tournament experience or guidance issued from said events?

No worries! As far as tournament use goes, I've used it in a couple of narrative tournaments and it was incredibly effective. As long as your army is built around it then it will rarely disappoint you.

[Gorgoff]

 

 

I don't think that a Glaive hits several levels of buildings since it doesn't use a template or a blast.

 

"Typhons, Cerberus Destroyers, Baneblade variants and similar will have a slightly more unfortunate time with it, as the D3+1 Haywire hits with AP2 are pretty nasty for stripping away hullpoints"

 

Superheavys are immune to Haywire.

But it's still d3+1 hits with S8 AP2 Primary Weapon.

And yeah as previously said, superheavies are not immune to haywire, just the Titans with the specific rule (Towering monstrosity I think it is)

Holy macaroni, Batman!

That changes everything.

You hear that, Mastodon of my gaming group?