Primaris lore in the codex?

[Wargamer]

What's the lore like concerning the Primaris? Does it give any hints how they tie in with the Inner Circle and the Deathwing / Ravenwing? Do the Primaris feel included properly, or is this just a random plug-job to get DA to buy the new minis, lore be damned?

[Corswain]

Don’t have the codex so I can’t speak for that but White Dwarf stated that Primaris aren’t trusted and are only begrudgingly accepted in the DA. No Deathwing Primaris but Ravenwing have a Primaris Lieutenant.

 

Less of a plug than I expected, really.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I believe it states that currently there are no Primaris in the Inner Circle (even though the Primaris Librarians have the rule, and you can give it to Primaris Masters), that the Inner Circle "remains hostile to their presence" given their lack of indoctrination, but that "as campaigns progress and decades pass, many of the Primaris Space Marines gain veteran status, and it remains only a matter of time before a decision must be made to initiate one into the Deathwing".

 

So, Primaris Librarians are in the Inner Circle, Primaris Masters and Redemptor Dreadnoughts can be (at least rules-wise), but none have been brought into the Deathwing, and I cannot find any reference to this Primaris Lieutenant in the Ravenwing?

[Kasper_Hawser]

As far as Primaris Lieutenants are concerned, they would only be used in the "Greenwing". As it is, I believe all Primaris will be treated with suspicion but stil incorporated at least in the Greenwing companies. The Ravenwing and Deathwing will take awhile, maybe as they indoctrinate NEW Primaris.

[Angel of Solitude]

A further part of the lore is that a number of the Unforgiven Chapters suffered significant losses at the Massacre At Darkmor - only 100 marines out of 1,000 survived. Roboute then arrives at the Rock with a significant number of Primaris reinforcements, which Azrael and the successors ultimately accept while pledging allegiance to Roboute. 

 

There are immediate concerns to the new recruits, but I get the impression that the Inner Circle have realised that they are essentially the same as existing Greenwing, and they have quickly adapted to the DA way of war.

 

The Inner Circle remains hostile as the new recruits haven't gone through the same level of indoctrination nor the "apocryphal tales that prepare them one day to hear the truth." The Codex suggests it's only a matter of time before a Primaris marine is initiated into the Deathwing, suggesting that there may already be some serving in the Ravenwing. However, given that we don't yet have Primaris bikers or Primaris landspeeders, it might be practically difficult to model this on the battlefield. 

[Cpt_Reaper]

There is a little piece under the Hellblaster Squad entry that I quite liked.

 

'These are the sons of the Lion, and it is no small task to impress them. I have fought in almost a hundred engagements since joining my brethren on the Rock, leading Squad Grellius to complete every mission assigned, yet not a word of praise have I heard. And rightly so - for such duty were we created and trained. Yet against the cultist waves and Daemon tides invading Hive Trall, our squad alone held a crucial hab-complex against the enemy. When Grand Master Belial arrived to retake the area and recover the gene-seed of the dead, he was surprised to find we held the line. I think I even saw him smile. In that moment, I believed our acceptance amongst our brethren was complete.'

- Hellblaster Sergeant Grellius

 

So they are getting there. Slowly, but they are.

[Robbienw]

Some interesting further fluff on the Redemptor Dreadnaught building on what was already said in the SM codex. 

 

It burns the marine interred out really fast.  Some Redemptor Dreadnaughts, which are still relatively new, are already on their 2nd pilot because the original ones died from the strain. 

 

It says the pilot is even more integrated into the machine in some way compared to standard Castaferrum Dreadnaughts, which gives the Redemptor its superior dexterity and manuverability but also causes the fast burn out.

 

So I doubt we will ever see venerable Redemptors.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Robbienw

[Lion El Jason]

One of the authors posted an (Unofficial) opinion that the Dark Angels treated them as novices until they proved themselves.  They were basically scouts in the chapter's eyes, or worse, cannon fodder.
As the codex says, over time the Primaris had to prove themselves to be considered equals.

 

Over time as new Primaris are recruited, they will go through the same indoctrination as the rest of the chapter so only the original Primaris will be an issue.

 

 

I thought it a shame that the Librarian issue wasn't answered in the codex.  I hoped to see there would be none TBH but then the all-primaris DA sucsessors of course have them.
Still some indication of how their Deathwing induction went would have been nice.  The fact they are proficient with Interromancy shows they have adopted the DA ways, at least a little.

[Angel of Solitude]

I thought it a shame that the Librarian issue wasn't answered in the codex.  I hoped to see there would be none TBH but then the all-primaris DA sucsessors of course have them.

Still some indication of how their Deathwing induction went would have been nice.  The fact they are proficient with Interromancy shows they have adopted the DA ways, at least a little.

The only reference made to Primaris Librarians is in the catch all phrase that as a consequence of the "extra testing and more rigorous sanctions", all Librarians are "utterly incorruptible and completely loyal to the Chapter". 

 

Using the Primaris as scouts analogy, aspirants with psychic potential are more rigorously screened, and therefore exposed to the secrets of the Chapter at a much earlier point in their career than regular, non-psychic aspirants. I don't see why this same argument couldn't also apply to Primaris librarians. While the Primaris reinforcements may have included 5 or so Primaris Librarians, the testing regime would probably reduce this down to 1-2 "completely loyal" Primaris Librarians.

[march10k]

I realize that TDA is not exactly the topic here, but...I'm trying to imagine primaris terminators...I keep coming up with GK Paladins without the psychic powers.

[march10k]

 

I thought it a shame that the Librarian issue wasn't answered in the codex.  I hoped to see there would be none TBH but then the all-primaris DA sucsessors of course have them.

Still some indication of how their Deathwing induction went would have been nice.  The fact they are proficient with Interromancy shows they have adopted the DA ways, at least a little.

The only reference made to Primaris Librarians is in the catch all phrase that as a consequence of the "extra testing and more rigorous sanctions", all Librarians are "utterly incorruptible and completely loyal to the Chapter". 

 

Using the Primaris as scouts analogy, aspirants with psychic potential are more rigorously screened, and therefore exposed to the secrets of the Chapter at a much earlier point in their career than regular, non-psychic aspirants. I don't see why this same argument couldn't also apply to Primaris librarians. While the Primaris reinforcements may have included 5 or so Primaris Librarians, the testing regime would probably reduce this down to 1-2 "completely loyal" Primaris Librarians.

 

 Well, that's the point, then. isn't it.  Any primaris librarians that arrived with the reinforcements weren't screened by anyone "in the know," and so they are in a unique position.  Their loyalty has been verified beyond any reasonable standard, ten times over.  Loyalty to the imperium....as seen by girlyman.  Loyalty to the chapter...or, that alternate of the chapter imagined by those on the outside.  Further screening for indoctrination into circles within circles would probably have to follow the pattern applied to normal marines.  And yet they are psychic.  How much could they glean from the minds of others?  Any primaris librarians foisted on the First Legion by Bobby Gee are more dangerous than any fallen brother.  They are sincere and righteous in their utter and infallible devotion...to a false reality.  Best if they die a noble death on the battlefield, and quickly. 

 

Primaris librarians selected from future recruits, because they will be vetted by the Librarium, not some outside agent, should probably be just fine and probably will be the first primaris marines in the inner circle. 

[Ashen Sabre]

I believe it states that the Primaris are becoming slowly accepted into the Dark Angels, while some like that Hellblaster Story state that they're certainly on their way to some trust. If I'm not mistaken, the Intercessor lore states that the Unforgiven now center their task forces upon Intercessor Squads or smth, so they're now at least accepted into main fighting forces now.

[Angel of Solitude]

I realize that TDA is not exactly the topic here, but...I'm trying to imagine primaris terminators...I keep coming up with GK Paladins without the psychic powers.

Yeah, that would be an interesting one. They'd be too big to fit into the relic TDA of the Deathwing, so perhaps they might have to make do with Mk X Gravis instead?

[Raychu]

Reading a bit of the codex, i was asking myself about the new chapters made only of primaris. Would their chapter master be accepted in the grand masters reunions ? And therefore told about the Hunt?

[Angel of Solitude]

Can't see why this would be the case. Essentially, the only thing that the new Primaris chapters share with the 1st Legion is gene seed; they don't share the histories and knowledge that define the Unforgiven. The truth would be concealed from these Primaris Chapter masters in the same way that it is concealed from those outside of the Inner Circle, Deathwing and Ravenwing.

 

At some point there will be an event of significant magnitude that it will necessitate telling the Primaris Chapter masters the truth and bring them into the Inner Circle - perhaps when the survival of the whole 1st Legion is at stake.

[shabbadoo]

There will no doubt be Primaris TDA, and so, eventually, Primaris Deathwing.  It is only a matter of making the models...er...I mean Primaris gaining Inner Circle acceptance. ;)

[Phoebus]

In-universe, the Inner Circle will eventually come to grips with the idea that, at one point, every Dark Angel was uninitiated, and that their forebears started this experiment under much more dangerous circumstances.

[Corswain]

which Azrael and the successors ultimately accept while pledging allegiance to Roboute.

 

Well that is crappy but unsurprising. Is Matt Ward back? *grumbling about “Spiritual Leige”*

 

I don’t know about Primaris TDA. Fluff-wise, wouldn’t they be too big to fit in the suits? They would have to completely rebuild them. Not impossible but not really lilely either, And Model-wise, wouldn’t they be enormous? They’d have to be bigger than Deathshroud and once they get that big, I think they will look out of place.

(TDA is why I don’t think they’ll ever completely squat Space Marines. It’s too popular.)

 

If/When Primaris get accepted into the Deathwing, maybe they won’t be in TDA. Maybe just Gravis?

Edited December 20, 2017 by Corswain

[Robbienw]

Yeah they could not fit in regular terminator armour just like they couldnt fit in any of the previous versions of power armour.  They would need a new version built.

 

This is one of the reasons why regular space marines will never be replaced as such; all the deadly war machines, wargear and relic weapons that primaris are too big to use.  Thats not just suddenly going to be discarded cause some +1 marines with massive legs showed up :lol:

[Chmur]

Yeah they could not fit in regular terminator armour just like they couldnt fit in any of the previous versions of power armour.  They would need a new version built.

 

This is one of the reasons why regular space marines will never be replaced as such; all the deadly war machines, wargear and relic weapons that primaris are too big to use.  Thats not just suddenly going to be discarded cause some +1 marines with massive legs showed up

 

Lore wise, it will. They will pull the same trick they did in Codex. My opinion is that the model support for old marines is already over - they will be produced as they are, but not developed. And quite frankly, once we get the full Primaris range (and boy, if Guilliman will build them in 30K strategic sense we're in for a ride), in a year or two nobody will play regular marines outside of maybe niche point costs etc.

[Robbienw]

Thats not really a problem though.  The range is so developed it doesnt really need anything new.  Primaris is an (imo, unsuccessful) attempt to add something new to the marine range, but make it a bit different so it doesnt just seem like a odd new thing tacked on, like the Centurion models.

 

I still think that they will keep selling regular marines for a long time, i don't see any reason for them to be discontinued just because of an expanded primaris range possibly coming out, no more than guard need to be discontinued and replaced with Tempestus Scions, for example.

 

It makes sense from a fluff point of view as well; regular marines are needed to keep operating regular marine sized gear.  I also doubt there are anywhere near like enough numbers of Primaris produced so far to replace regular marines 1 for 1. 

 

Also we know in current fluff that chapters are still making normal space marines alongside primaris, so there are obviously reasons for keeping normal marines around.  There is no lore justification for regular marines disappearing.

 

As GW said themselves, Primaris are re-inforcements for Space Marines, they are *not* replacements.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Robbienw

[Angel of Solitude]

 

which Azrael and the successors ultimately accept while pledging allegiance to Roboute.

Well that is crappy but unsurprising. Is Matt Ward back? *grumbling about “Spiritual Leige”*

Well, the full back story is that initially Azrael fears the worst - that Roboute "knows the truth of the Dark Angels' hidden past, and brings judgement with him". At this point, Azrael and the successor Grand Masters are fully contemplating whether to fight or flee. Fortunately, they decide to stick around, RG arrives with his Primaris reinforcements, and tells the Dark Angels that they have "earned their right to maintain their specialised wings, as long as they continue to serve the Emperor as well". 

 

At this point, probably out of relief more than anything, Azrael bends the knee to RG.

 

My suspicion is that Azrael is correct - RG knows the complete story, having encountered Cypher. However, I think there are two mitigating factors:

1. Given what happens during Ruinstorm, RG knows with complete confidence the ultimate loyalty of the Lion and thus the loyal members of the 1st Legion;
2. He cares not that the 1st Legion maintain their hunt of the Fallen; to RG they're the same traitor marines that he would otherwise be fighting. 

This last point is interesting: in their pursuit of the Fallen, have the 1st Legion become specialists in seeking and engaging traitor marines? This is no bad thing for RG to have at his disposal.

 

Also, if RG did bring judgement with him, then that's not just a whole chapter turned against the Imperium, but almost an entire legion!

[Robbienw]

He'd probably be quite understanding as plenty of marines with his own geneseed have gone renegade over the past 10,000 years

[Corswain]

RG arrives with his Primaris reinforcements, and tells the Dark Angels that they have "earned their right to maintain their specialised wings, as long as they continue to serve the Emperor as well". 

*groan* That’s nearly as bad. Ok, Azrael is maybe just agreeing to keep away some scrutiny, I buy that. That’s why they adopted the Codex in the first place.

But Guilliman never intended for the Codex to be literal, just a guide. Him “allowing” the DA to do their own minor variations kinda goes against the character he has been set up as. It would have been much more interesting if there was more conflict - “I take orders from my Primarch or the Emperor himself, not you!”

 

And I don’t think too many people are going to say no to Guilliman when he has an army of Primaris with him.

[Angel of Solitude]

It would have been much more interesting if there was more conflict - “I take orders from my Primarch or the Emperor himself, not you!”

And I don’t think too many people are going to say no to Guilliman when he has an army of Primaris with him.

 

Yeah, I'm kinda disappointed how little in the Codex there is of the supposed "civil war" that was going to come about from the existing 1st Legion not wanting the Primaris to infiltrate their circles within circles secrecy structure. However, I think this will be something that will probably be covered separately by Black Library - quite a bit of time has passed between the arrival of RG and the Primaris reinforcements and current events.