Bringing back 30k

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

So I would like to discuss the current State of 30k. This is my opinion and I will not make statements based upon any conjecture as factual. Believe me when I say I’ve thought about this a lot - the Horus Heresy is very important to me for many reasons.

 

One year ago we got a new box set with two armies both plastic and intricately detailed. 30k was at its height in popularity... then two major things happened within a short time span of each other - 8th edition was released and then we lost a giant, Alan Bligh. Alan made 30k work... every Legion is viable drawing from the same basic units and every Legion is unique with individual strong units including characters. I never ever had one bad game of Horus Heresy.

 

30k changed me as a gamer and hobbyist. I was once an ultra competitive gamer but the Horus Heresy taught me taught me each game is a unique experience with my opponent and we can both be totally immersed as if we were actually there.

 

I would like to see Forge World start to give back some attention to 30k again releasing new units and promoting the game. It’s not too late but then again it’s been awhile. I know 8th edition 40k is really hot but there are resources available for 30k... it’s not like all resources must be diverted to 40k.

 

If you agree I encourage you to reply. By positivity we can bring about change.

[m0nolith]

I believe you are far too pessimistic about the state of 30k right now.

Although I have no doubt that there is a slowdown, there are clear reasons why this has happened.

 

1: The double whammy of a new shiny, that being 8th and Primaris

2: The tragic passing of a great man

3: The profitability of the Specialist Games range.

 

On the first point, we must admit that a portion of the 30k players were former 40k players who were fed up with 7th and are now back to playing 8th. Eight ed, although being much better than 7th imo, is eventually going to run into gameplay problems as all editions do, and then we may see a upswing from those players, who like in 7th, get tired of the 40k WAAC and return to 30k. And the new shiny players will always go to the new shiny, nothing can be done about that.

 

On the second point, over the last months we have found out that Alan Bligh's death has really done a number on FW. They have to reorganize a lot not simply because of his passing but also because of point three.

 

The Specialist Games range has consumed half of the FW team, the majority who were working on 30k. This is definitely a hard hit to how much 30k were going to get in the future, but does this affect the sustainability of 30k in the long run?

 

The question that I have to ask is this: Is Heresy dying? 

The short answer is no.

 

Its become slower yes, but not nearly to the point where its no longer profitable for GW/FW to manufacture and upkeep the game. 

Case and point: LotR. They still manufacture not only new models, but it just got a new rulebook not even a few weeks ago. Although, I don't have hard numbers in front of me, I cant imagine that LotR sells better than 30k, and they still receive not just support, but excellent amount of support.

 

But there is a reality that we have to accept as 30k players. The Specialist Games range makes a ton of money, 8th was a resounding success and a portion of players who don't hate Primaris, love Primaris, and are willing to spend a lot of money on them.

 

But there's another thing we have to accept, 30k is the anti 40k. Its for players that love FW aesthetics, larger battles, narrative gaming, and the general playerbase of 30k, that is compared how all of those things are in 40k. People are always going to be drawn to what Heresy has to offer.

 

 

30k isnt going anywhere. There are no breaks on the Heresy Train, but that train can still slow down and travel at half speed while still looking awesomely terrifying.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It will pass on at the current rate things are going now.

[Withershadow]

I am going to generalize a bit...

 

HH recently had a period of large expansion of its player base, for two main reasons:  A. 7th had become a cluster:cuss nightmare, and B. the barrier of entry has been lowered with the release of the plastic boxes. While not universally true, a lot of these players started bringing the unpleasant aspects of 40K to the 30K scene, with min-maxed ridiculous armies and lack of consideration for the fluff. They had no black books, and largely had no desire to play campaigns or narrative missions. They were in essence trying to play 40K in a 30K.  Most of these Johnny-come-lately's with their all-plastic hodge-podge armies and recasted quad mortars jumped ship to 8th edition. For the most part, they will not be missed.

 

So really, we have just returned to the pre-Calth/Prospero status quo.  Established groups with existing armies keep on trucking, maybe seguing into 8th as the new shiny, before returning to their significant investment in 30K.  I expect another resurgence once they finally release that book.  I am hoping the rulebook was delayed so much because they want to really fine-tune it for the 30K environment, but even the few changes they advertised were okay by me (although I don't think grenades should be usable by every member except for melta-bombs).

[Galron]

One thing not mentioned here is many many players played 30k armies in 40k groups. I started a Night Lords drop army even before I had rules available and soon after an Iron Warriors infantry and terminator army with converted Tyrants and Iron Havocs(not that they were remotely a challenge) and invested heavily into resin-crack. When Calth built an Alpha Legion mech infantry force came out IWith the switch of editions though, my 30k armies are lacking. I sold my night lords as that build was useless(and I didn't have as much time as I used to have). My Iron Warriors have made the switchover somewhat intact although a big chunk of my terminators and Glaive are useless, and my go to SH, the Typhon is not only a pale shadow of its former self, they just pointed it way beyond even rule of cool use when it needed a drop. Alpha is unchanged actually and almost 99% of it is completely usable. However as rules go, they aren't near as flavorful as the Legion rules. Alpha is the go to cheese army for chaos and gets a bad rap for it. Long story short, when 40k switched to 8th, a lot of 30k players had no choice but to switch over or simply get out of the game all together. 40k groups aren't going to play what are arguably an inferior and very different set of rules just because one 30k player wants to play his old army.

 

Thus a great many 30k players are left in the cold and have no interest in newer 30k books until they do a 8th crossover. I think it will eventually happen and they were talking about doing it down the road once 8th was established and a bit more stable which right now it is not.

 

As to 40k support, we have gotten a big superheavy which was probably in the plans long before 8th actually came out and the Red Scorpion stuff that was previewed long before Alan died. Aside from a few doors, that's been it. So I don't know where you are getting 40k is getting all the support that would have gone to 30k. If anything GW is discouraging players from using FW stuff with outrageous points costs and terribly underpowered rules. Like 30k and its upcoming black book(not to mention 7.5 rules) we are still waiting for an IA book that should have been released a while back. In fact when was the last new IA book, 2013ish?

 

I think a conversion book with legion rules and rules for special units and maybe RoW would be a great aid in bringing back 30k players. Nothing says the hard core "7th is the greatest evar!" groups cant still play in 7th and they cant still release rules in 7th. Those new Sicaran variants are a prime example of putting out rules for both editions. But at least other 30k players left out in the cold can get back into the game we love as well.

[Marshal Rohr]

You shouldn’t be playing 40k with your 30k army. You’re in this mess because you tried to shove a square peg in a round hole. People trying to play 40k with 30k armies is also why we had thread after thread about x, y, and z being underpowered when they were just fine as intended. It was against 40k free rhino and psyker spam they suffered. Going into every thread saying 30k needs to be moved to 8th because you can’t play against Eldar anymore is not going to get any support from anyone. 30k was meant to be played as a 40k expansion. Now it’s not even a 40k expansion but a stand alone game.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I wasn’t aware 30k had went away

 

Boy is my face red for spending good money on now useless resin!

[stuka06]

I am very new to the Horus Heresy. I used the Calth box as a starting off point, as many have. But I've also made significant investments into additional troops and vehicles and flyers and OMG it's so much.
But, right now, it's collecting dust. And the reason is pretty simple. 8th edition is a good system. I've reaffirmed my commitment to my 40k Dark Angels because at some point I'm building my forces to be used as varied tabletop ready army (I very much avoid playing unpainted)

The Horus Heresy as been a boon to long time fans. The 7th edition is very much a bloated behemoth of accumulated rules over all the Editions since 3rd. And while HH has been able to negate some of the silliness and frustration of the mindset of many 7th edition players, the foundation is flawed. It's the pages upon pages of "universal special rules" that are being supplemented by even more special rules that every single unit has. 

8th edition's mindset of the 3 ways to play reads like someone looked at HH and though "how can we cater to this scenario and what we've built in terms of model range and lore"

Open play - "There are these incredible models that I've collected, let's just play for a bit, see what's what" 

Great for getting new players into HH. Standard Legions HAVE to field 20 tactical Marines. It's actually kind of annoying to have that as an additional barrier of entry. And why? The wealth of unique forces during that time seem predetermined to have foster varied force organization(or lack thereof).

Narrative Play - This ought to be the meat and bones of an 8th ed HH renaissance. This is baked into the DNA of HH. It's the entire reason they started this whole thing. Interesting missions, building your army around the quicker Power level metric. 

Competitive Play - Probably the one thing that the most potential to raise the ire of actual HH fans. The great thing about having 30k armies and 40k armies compatible is that there are tons of ways there can be a narrative reason to have them fight. The orks have been around during that time. so have the Eldar. I've seen battle reports where Tyranids have been used to symbolize the arachnids of Murder. The issue is, that if 30k armies are too strong, people that might bring pure mix-maxing and "I'm not here to play, I'm here to win attitude" back to 30k. I get why that might be frustrating, yet there is also the basic concept of actually knowing and picking who you want to play with. 

 

Long story short(aka: TL;DR): For the long term health of the HH ecosystem, the shackles of an aging rule set have to be cast aside. Update HH with 8th edition rules.

[dicebod]

I played a game of 30k over the weekend - it was the first time I had gotten my Imperial Fists on the table since the launch of 8th ed. You know what it took to set up that game? A question - "hey, do you want to play 30k?"

 

There are tons of players in my community with large 30k armies gathering dust because they were just distracted by 8th. They still want to play, but we are hitting a collective issue where games aren't being played because the subcultural attitude is 8th ed is what we should be playing - 30k no longer is fresh. But that doesn't mean it's bad, or even dying.

 

It's up to FW, yes, to keep support going, but it's also on us to just go and play. People with massive time and money investments in heresy armies will want to put those armies on the table - it's just a matter of asking.

[sockwithaticket]

^

This plus other things already mentioned.

8th was always going to grab a lot of attention from the player base and as the rules base is still being FAQed, having amendments via Chapter Approved and lacking codices for all factions, it will continue to be prominent as far as releases go and in gaming habits for a while yet.
 

 

 I know 8th edition 40k is really hot but there are resources available for 30k... it’s not like all resources must be diverted to 40k.

 

Someone like mr_parker will know better, but from his accounts of chats with staff at Open days and weekenders, the FW team isn't as big as we might sometimes think.

By their own admission they've deliberately stepped down 30k activity while they consolidate and figure out a way ahead without Alan Bligh, that'll require some time and they're taking it; good for them, when they start back up in earnest it needs to be in the right way. In the meantime the employees involved in model production have largely been moved onto other stuff that's currently not in that position of figuring out the way ahead. Makes sense. By the time Angelus is ready I'm sure we'll see the HH in fuller swing than it might currently feel.

There is of course a difference between prominence in the release schedule and popularity on the table. In the interminable 30k should be 7th vs. 8th debates that pop up, there's anecdotal evidence that it's both died and thrived in various bits of the world, so it's probably doing fine overall and will perk up a bit once 8ths 'new shiny' impact dulls a little and we get close to a new black book.

There's not really much to do about that, it'll run at it's own pace, except what dicebod suggested and just ask guys in your area for a 30k game every now and then.
 

[Gorgoff]

I am going to generalize a bit...

 

HH recently had a period of large expansion of its player base, for two main reasons: A. 7th had become a cluster:cuss nightmare, and B. the barrier of entry has been lowered with the release of the plastic boxes. While not universally true, a lot of these players started bringing the unpleasant aspects of 40K to the 30K scene, with min-maxed ridiculous armies and lack of consideration for the fluff. They had no black books, and largely had no desire to play campaigns or narrative missions. They were in essence trying to play 40K in a 30K. Most of these Johnny-come-lately's with their all-plastic hodge-podge armies and recasted quad mortars jumped ship to 8th edition. For the most part, they will not be missed.

 

So really, we have just returned to the pre-Calth/Prospero status quo. Established groups with existing armies keep on trucking, maybe seguing into 8th as the new shiny, before returning to their significant investment in 30K. I expect another resurgence once they finally release that book. I am hoping the rulebook was delayed so much because they want to really fine-tune it for the 30K environment, but even the few changes they advertised were okay by me (although I don't think grenades should be usable by every member except for melta-bombs).

That sums it up pretty much.

And boom:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/12/19/horus-heresy-age-darkness-rulebook-coming-soon/

 

Here we go again.

By the way:

We still get new players in our group on a regular basis. Just like OP says:

I was a hardcore lamer gamer untill HH told me how to play the game right. That's the spirit people love and with different rules it even feels like going a big step away from 40k madness. It'll help gathering people, you'll see.

[Arminius_Warbringer]

I have been reading some of the posts like this, around the various forums, and a few people I have spoken with report a drop in games too. It is basically due to the revitalized 40k and I think most agree that this is the primary reason. However this is just the typical ebbs and flows that happen all of the time, in hobbies and in other areas of life, and not the first signs of the death of HH as a whole. It is a lull and only temporary.

 

Last weekend my community gaming store held a HH narrative event that included more than a dozen players. My friend and I went to watch and meet the players because we are both in the middle of building large HH armies. I have bought 2 armies worth of FW models and should have 1 on the table in the next month or two. We were told there has been a slow down but HH is still going strong. In fact they have a large narrative campaign beginning in 2 months and a escalation league aimed at new players right around the corner. So the hobby is already bouncing back some in my area. I also talked to another guy who said it is slowly starting to pick up in his state too, now that it is cold outside and the summer has past.

 

My advice is that you take it upon yourself to organize play and try to get something going on your own initiative, like the escalation league for example, to rekindle interest and more importantly to build up the base of players in your area. You have to think like "if I build it, they will come" and foster growth and interest or you will not have a vital gaming community of any kind. Like someone said about asking "want to play 30k?" , to paraphrase the op, you may find that finding interested players is not as hard as you might think. So go get pro-active and put in a little effort and see where it leads. You don't have anything to lose by trying. Do you?

 

The other aspects like cost(the worst barrier to growth) and outside influences, like 8th editions release, are out of your hands and you need to focus on what you can change and stay positive. HH isn't dying or fading into obscurity, it just needs a spark and it will return to burning bright again. Just my 2 cents worth, take it or leave it! Cheers!

[Brother Pheidias]

It's weird seeing these rather pessimistic screeds when we're having a major upswing in 30K around here, with new players, more or less bi-monthly events, and mad scrambles to buy, build and paint more resin-toys from the devotees. 30k will be juuust fine.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

To me that shows you are only concerned about your local area -  and that often seems to be the case for people that still have a thriving community. I think it would be nice if FW would release some new kit every month for HH.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

What we may want and what is feasible for Forgeworld could be two completely different things. Forgeworld is small and deals with many different products. To expand it costs money, you have to pay those employees, you have to pay for new equipment, you have to pay for new buildings and land or rent for buildings. Costs have to be justified and you have to make sure your investment will net you a profit or you destroy your own company by over extending yourself.

 

Also what quality of employee are you looking for? Do you hire just anyone off the street or are you selective? Do they just pump out low quality material so that hey have a release or do they take the proper development time to keep a high standard for the release? Do you increase costs of products to pay for all of this?

 

It isn't as simple as just reading off Nike's slogan.

[Soldier of Dorn]

To me that shows you are only concerned about your local area - and that often seems to be the case for people that still have a thriving community. I think it would be nice if FW would release some new kit every month for HH.

Why? Does Forge World continuinally releasing new product drive your hobby, or the community in your area? What happens when the range is filled, then? Does the community just die? The release schedules of GW/FW should not be the determining factor in determining whether a game is considered alive, and there's no logical reason to conclude that FW releasing something even weekly for 30k would necessarily drive activity, just due to the wide variety of Legions and armies available.

 

30k has not died. A simple lack of new releases resulting in an apparent quietness in online discussions concerning new releases does not mean that 30k is dead, nor does the loss of those 40k players who got into 30k on account of the ease of availability of miniatures in Calth or Prospero and because it was the next big thing (whom I would consider a seperate group from those who had other interest in 30k, and utilized those sets to solidify their ability to participate, as many others did.) Without any malice towards them, those people were always guaranteed to be a flash in the pan until the next big thing in 40k came out, and now it has.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the only thing that will make 30k a dead game is when people are unwilling to continue playing it. Doesn't matter if discussion online stalls a bit. Active discussion of new releases is not representative of whether there are people are playing, and by all reports given here, people are.

 

That's my take on things, anyways.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That is fine if that is your opinion but don't expect me to agree with you. Channeling SoB.

[criddopher]

I just started a 30k legion, I dont think 30k is going anywhere. I think GW is focusing on getting all the books out for 40k as fast as possible, as they should, then things will be back to normal as far as releases go. (edit) im also going full resin with my dark angels. To hell with the plastic boxes!  :-P

[Soldier of Dorn]

That is fine if that is your opinion but don't expect me to agree with you. Channeling SoB.

 

Man, you're comparing two entirely different things. One is a army with models made to outdated sculpt standards that hasn't had a real update in over a decade and a half, the other is an system that in itself is just about five years old and has a model range that is in its entirety up to date with current standards of sculpt, and is still just as popular as it was prior to the release of Betrayal at Calth.

 

I'm not even stating an opinion here. These are just the facts as anyone can see them. Unless of course, you've been accustomed to the bubble that Calth and Prospero created. Bubbles burst, mate. It's the sad and honest truth.

[nagashnee]

To me that shows you are only concerned about your local area -  and that often seems to be the case for people that still have a thriving community. I think it would be nice if FW would release some new kit every month for HH.

I find this hilarious, can you tell me a month where FW did not preview or release something for 30k? I mean they are literally dropping its first edition rulebook this week.

 

For my local meta, 30k strangled 8th in its crib. Few were going to jump on-board another main studio run ruleset ( they always start good, then the expansions come) and the few that did are in the minority, heck half of them have 30k anyhow. 

 

30k if run by a smaller team, to expect it to keep up to 40k releases is crazy, slow and steady has ALWAYS been the 30k way.

[Charlo]

This topic is inflammatory and just another simple:

 

Well, HH is dead in MY area so it MUST be dead everywhere else!

 

In a few posts we'll be hearing about how it should/ shouldn't be moving to 8th 

 

There is no discussion to be had here, as someone rightfully pointed out in another thread:

 

Those who think its dead are just the same people saying so in the online echo chamber, while actually, the Horus Heresy system is alive and well, those who know this are the ones going to the constantly sold out events, listening to the podcasts and commenting on the various very active Facebook groups and engaging in their local gaming community.

 

Has there been a slow-down of releases... I'd argue no, but people insist there have been... We've had a glut of Custodes stuff, Magnus & the 1KSons kits, the Sicaran variants. More recently we've had a massive drop of the doors for most legions (with the rest on the way too). What more do people expect...? Sure the Wolves stuff is lagging behind but we've seen the Varagyr and a surprise Preator so we know they're coming (regardless of your opinion on how they look).

 

Just because we aren't getting regular updates on the next book for a couple of months doesn't mean it's dead.

[helterskelter]

Dorn/Alpharius are gonna be out next year, to repeat myself, it's catch up til Angelus. We will get things and stuff. It's up to us to carry the Flag. Yeah sometimes we might have to tighten our belts and we can't afford the new shinies, but we can keep playing and keep showing forgeworld via Instagram and Facebook we still play and paint and love. Not bringing back, but showing our continued presence.

[Galron]

 

That is fine if that is your opinion but don't expect me to agree with you. Channeling SoB.

 

Man, you're comparing two entirely different things. One is a army with models made to outdated sculpt standards that hasn't had a real update in over a decade and a half, the other is an system that in itself is just about five years old and has a model range that is in its entirety up to date with current standards of sculpt, and is still just as popular as it was prior to the release of Betrayal at Calth.

 

I'm not even stating an opinion here. These are just the facts as anyone can see them. Unless of course, you've been accustomed to the bubble that Calth and Prospero created. Bubbles burst, mate. It's the sad and honest truth.

 

I love the condescending comments some people have. Its alive where I am and we have a facebook page with people who talk on it therefore it must be true that 30k is alive and well. Good for your area, but that's only your area. Other areas it is 100% completely dead where it had players previously, not to mention individual players who played as part of a 40k community. And screw whoever says those players aren't playing it right. Those players are/were just as valid 30k players as the few who are lucky enough to still be in a 30k community. They aid their money into the system by the thousands to build their armies just like you did. I notice Europe and hive cities tend to still have communities. You ever think its because your areas are the size of a large neighborhoods and not hours long drives to get to the next population center? You walk for ten minutes in Europe and you are in the next country over, so yeah, your gaming communities are going to be far more interconnected.

 

So in answer to how to bring 30k BACK, they need to make conversion lists so those of us in 40k communities can play our armies again. They can continue to cater to the minority players who still have 30k groups. I don't care, that doesn't affect me. What affects me and probably the majority of US 30k players is we don't have updated rules to play against our opponents. Asking them to down grade their armies to a lesser rules system is indeed asking too much. I am not going to convince anyone they need to spend thousands of dollars to build an army just to play against me in hopes other people will jump in too. They already did most of the vehicles. All we need are legion, volkite, and specific legion rules and 30k will live on, its not asking a lot, nor is it asking anything more than they already said they would provide. The longer they wait, the more people just sell off their armies and the pool of 30k players both active and inactive will continue to shrink.

[Marshal Rohr]

First, you don’t get to tell us ‘screw whoever says’, Forge World says. It’s right there in the book. It’s not designed to be played against 40k armies.

 

Second, you don’t get to say if it’s like X in your areas it doesn’t matter because it’s like Y in my area. That’s logically inconsistent. You have no more special knowledge than anyone else. If they can’t know, neither can you. That’s how that works.

 

Third, 7th isn’t a ‘lesser’ system. It’s a different system. You might not like it, plenty of people don’t. Use the points values in Codex space marines and the forge World indexes to update your army to 8th. You may have to counts as a volkite or two, but everything else has points.

[nagashnee]

 

 

 

So in answer to how to bring 30k BACK, they need to make conversion lists so those of us in 40k communities can play our armies again. They can continue to cater to the minority players who still have 30k groups. I don't care, that doesn't affect me. What affects me and probably the majority of US 30k players is we don't have updated rules to play against our opponents. Asking them to down grade their armies to a lesser rules system is indeed asking too much. I am not going to convince anyone they need to spend thousands of dollars to build an army just to play against me in hopes other people will jump in too. They already did most of the vehicles. All we need are legion, volkite, and specific legion rules and 30k will live on, its not asking a lot, nor is it asking anything more than they already said they would provide. The longer they wait, the more people just sell off their armies and the pool of 30k players both active and inactive will continue to shrink.

 

 

What are you on about? Updated rules? The rulebook is coming out THIS WEEK. Asking opponents to downgrade their lists? THEY ARE PLAYING A DIFFERENT GAME.

 

Simple question based on your comment above, why dont you just play 40k?  If your requirement is that FW slaves 30k to any and all changes the main studio ever makes to 40k.....why not just play 40k?