Too many CP?

[tychobi]

In a perfect world how many cp can we really spend? We seem so hungry for command points and with only a 5+ refund relic for after detachment bonuses I wonder what # would be enough? At 2000 points a pure codex list would struggle to go for a full Brigade. In light of the season let's get our wish on! How many???

Edited December 21, 2017 by Morticon

[Karhedron]

Realistically I think that 9 CPs from a dual Battalion is the best we can manage at 2000 points without crippling ourselves with FA and Heavy taxes.

 

If you want to bring some of our shiny units in larger squads then I think you are probably heading for just 7 with Battalion + Vanguard detachments. 7 CPs will run out very quickly though.

 

To some extent it depends on what units you are bringing. If you want to go for a CC alpha strike then that is 4 CPs for Forlorn Fury on a large DC unit and DoA on a second large JP squad. Captain Smashypants can eat a pile of CPs by himself if you choose to use him to hunt a large and dangerous unit. Against smaller fry (like Dreadnoughts ) he is fine without.

[Morticon]

Im playing with the idea of CP mining from IG.  It's dirty, but I think its a useful tax. 

75 points for a patrol detachment - get an IG commander with a 10man infantry squad.  Give the commander brilliant strat and the IG relic.  

Then take Veritas too. 

This means each time you use a strategem:

 

1.  You roll a die and on a 5+ you get +1 CP. 

2.  You roll a die for each CP spend and on a 5+ you get +1 CP. 

 

and

 

3.  Each time your enemy uses a strategem, you roll a die and on a 5+ you get +1 CP.  

75 points for all that.  

I'm looking to inlcude it in dirty tourney lists if i rock non-brigade builds. 

[Karhedron]

Interesting. Is it worth making it a Battalion to supply some cheap lascannons? Should be about 240 points and provides an extra 3CPs as well as some firepower to support your BAs when they go all choppy as well as 3 more ObjSec units.

[Panzer]

Im playing with the idea of CP mining from IG.  It's dirty, but I think its a useful tax. 

 

75 points for a patrol detachment - get an IG commander with a 10man infantry squad.  Give the commander brilliant strat and the IG relic.  

Then take Veritas too. 

This means each time you use a strategem:

 

1.  You roll a die and on a 5+ you get +1 CP. 

2.  You roll a die for each CP spend and on a 5+ you get +1 CP. 

 

and

 

3.  Each time your enemy uses a strategem, you roll a die and on a 5+ you get +1 CP.  

75 points for all that.  

I'm looking to inlcude it in dirty tourney lists if i rock non-brigade builds.

 

I'd go a step further and make it a Battalion for cheap 3CP and some chaff units we're lacking on our own even.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

The new strats out of the codex are really great, but the ones out the main rule book are important as well I feel still too to complicate things further.

An assault army will have occasion to want to use the counter assault strat I'm thinking.

Lascannons tend to want to eat re-rolls you need to do all the 3d6 charges etc etc.

So yeah we are well short of being to use all the new toys easily/consistently in my opinion.

 

I am also inclined to think building towards a brigade and / or building to alpha all the time is not going to be long term viable probably.

We will surprise some people and just trash some more, but I think the ideas will be left wanting as THE one way to go as time goes by.

It depends somewhat on your common opponents, available forces, and mission, terrain etc too.

I hope I am wrong, go forth and conquer with your flashy brigades brothers =)

 

7-9 points max from mono build BA seems good enough for casual play to ME right now.

Know when to hold them and to use them to best advantage etc.

Build with that in mind is my current feeling, ie don't build the cp addicted army wherever possible.

 

I don't like the way the accounting looks for the other ways that look possible myself. (Brigade and Alpha)

The points just don't seem to be there to get consistant results for cp burning funny car BA to me as those guys I drink with are pretty canny bastards.

Time will tell one way or another for sure and it sure is gonna be fun finding out =).

 

---

Including the IG changes the situation markedly for sure.

As long as multiple sources of forces remains a thing I feel we are perhaps pretty damned competitive with the new toys.

 

I have IG figs going back alot of years, but am not really interested in fielding them at this time.

I have been following builds here and there; I have the idea in my back pocket as needed.

Also like the idea in light of recent story events in the game etc.

More power to you if you are inclined this way, I may join you in the spring =)

 

I am not really interested in participating in tourney play myself, so my IG support forces will remain in the mental garage for now.

I will dust them off and use them if I feel I need them after using my 8cp builds in a few games after the holidays.

 

-----

EDIT: Just re-read the first post and realized I kinda went Scrooge on the question. Apologies.

We could easily spend DOZENS of command points...

Possibly fuel with IG and lucky recovery rolls maybe 2 dozen at a hip shot.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Orblivion]

Realistically I think that 9 CPs from a dual Battalion is the best we can manage at 2000 points without crippling ourselves with FA and Heavy taxes.

 

If you want to bring some of our shiny units in larger squads then I think you are probably heading for just 7 with Battalion + Vanguard detachments. 7 CPs will run out very quickly though.

 

To some extent it depends on what units you are bringing. If you want to go for a CC alpha strike then that is 4 CPs for Forlorn Fury on a large DC unit and DoA on a second large JP squad. Captain Smashypants can eat a pile of CPs by himself if you choose to use him to hunt a large and dangerous unit. Against smaller fry (like Dreadnoughts ) he is fine without.

 

7 seems to be the most CP I can squeeze out of the 2000 pt list that I want to play.  If I got rid of the Baal Predator for a second Stormtalon I could get 8, but I love the Baal Predator.

[Charlo]

Im playing with the idea of CP mining from IG.  It's dirty, but I think its a useful tax. 

75 points for a patrol detachment - get an IG commander with a 10man infantry squad.  Give the commander brilliant strat and the IG relic.  

 

Then take Veritas too. 

 

This means each time you use a strategem:

 

1.  You roll a die and on a 5+ you get +1 CP. 

2.  You roll a die for each CP spend and on a 5+ you get +1 CP. 

 

and

 

3.  Each time your enemy uses a strategem, you roll a die and on a 5+ you get +1 CP.  

 

75 points for all that.  

 

I'm looking to inlcude it in dirty tourney lists if i rock non-brigade builds. 

 

On the one hand, this is a great way to get CP and could even be a bit fluffy with BA coming in to relieve the beleaguered last defenders....

 

But maybe it's intentional that marines get less CP overall?

 

Probably not... In fact it seems like the biggest oversight of the edition IMO.

[Are Verlo]

Im playing with the idea of CP mining from IG.  It's dirty, but I think its a useful tax. 

75 points for a patrol detachment - get an IG commander with a 10man infantry squad.  Give the commander brilliant strat and the IG relic.  

 

Then take Veritas too. 

 

This means each time you use a strategem:

 

1.  You roll a die and on a 5+ you get +1 CP. 

2.  You roll a die for each CP spend and on a 5+ you get +1 CP. 

 

and

 

3.  Each time your enemy uses a strategem, you roll a die and on a 5+ you get +1 CP.  

 

75 points for all that.  

 

I'm looking to inlcude it in dirty tourney lists if i rock non-brigade builds. 

I don´t think this will work. 

 

From the IG codex: if your army is lead by an IG warlord you may give one of the following relics to an IG character

From the Ba codex: same wording, just replace IG with BA...

 

BUT: It looks like you can spend CP to use the "bonus relic" stratagems regardless of warlord?

 

So take the IG warlord and the aqullia and then spend 1 CP to give a BA character the veritas :-D

[Morticon]

Good catch, matey. 

I didnt realise that restriction.  Means Veritas is out.  Not a train smash though, the other ones even better. 

[Are Verlo]

aye, in a 2K game that is a good investment (70p mininimum) for the platoon.

 

I often run 2x battalions and a cheap outrider detatchment with 3 tarantulas. The one CP lost by shuffling the tarantulas into the battalion would easily be regained by the IG commander during the game (I think... Unless he gets himself killed very early in the game.)

[Remtek]

The Death Guard faq answered that with a generalized ruling, i think it should be fine. 

 

Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character?

A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.

 

Edit, whops i misread the post, what Are said is correct :)

Edited December 19, 2017 by Remtek

[Brother_Mike]

In a perfect world how many cp can we really spend? We seem so hungry for command points and with only a 5+ refund relic for after detachment bonuses I wonder what # would be enough? At 2000 points a pure codex list would struggle to go for a full Brigade. In light of the season let's get our wish on! How many???

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this assessment. Especially all of the lists on this forum specifically. The pattern is that everyone is going stripped down MSU to get as many command points as possible.

 

The problem I see with such an arrangement is that one is essentially sacrificing a solid, well rounded list that exercising our Blood Angels specific units (which are very effective at that) in favor of the gimmicks and situational usefulness that are our stratagems. I'm the first to say stratagems ARE great and they ARE fluffy. In fact, the fluffiness that stratagems allow without the unbalanced nature that 7th became trying to include rules like these is why I love the system even more.

 

But gimmicks only work 1 out of 10 times though, the other 9 times you are gonna lose because you didn't have the right tool to employ in a particular situation. Now if you're about the gimmick life, go for it. But I wouldn't want anyone to operate under the false assumption that building your list around gimmicks will get you more wins.

[Panzer]

Honestly, we never have enough CP no matter what we do. Then again Stratagems are meant to be options to chose from, not something you use every time you can so I'm fine with running out of CP eventually to be honest.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

<snip>The pattern is that everyone is going stripped down MSU to get as many command points as possible.

 

The problem I see with such an arrangement is that one is essentially sacrificing a solid, well rounded list that exercising our Blood Angels specific units (which are very effective at that) in favor of the gimmicks and situational usefulness that are our stratagems.

 

 

Brother_Mike, can you explain what you mean here?  Maybe I'm incorrectl linking these 2 paragraphs, but why exactly are MSU a bad thing?  The only time it seems MSU are bad is when you're buffing via a psychic power (or similiar unit based buff). Then again, if you're putting Unleash Rage on your Tactical squad (5 OR 10 man)...something has likely gone very wrong for you.

[tychobi]

Well brothers you have sniffed me out. I am a tournament player and have some very stiff competition in my neck of the woods and really think Blood Angels need a cp boost for top tier play. Cooking up some Imperial Guard allies will also allow some useful compliments to our aggressive statagems. Assassins or a guest appearance from a certain gold clad lady Angel? Hubba hubba! Or is that too far?

[Brother_Mike]

 

 

<snip>The pattern is that everyone is going stripped down MSU to get as many command points as possible.

 

The problem I see with such an arrangement is that one is essentially sacrificing a solid, well rounded list that exercising our Blood Angels specific units (which are very effective at that) in favor of the gimmicks and situational usefulness that are our stratagems.

 

 

Brother_Mike, can you explain what you mean here?  Maybe I'm incorrectl linking these 2 paragraphs, but why exactly are MSU a bad thing?  The only time it seems MSU are bad is when you're buffing via a psychic power (or similiar unit based buff). Then again, if you're putting Unleash Rage on your Tactical squad (5 OR 10 man)...something has likely gone very wrong for you.

 

 

Good point, allow me to elaborate with an example, brother. A common 2k Blood Angels list I see post -odex is something like the following:

 

2xBattalions with:

2xCaptains

3xMSU Scouts

 

Vanguard Detachment with:

Librarian Dreadnought/Mephiston

Several Mixed Elites choices

 

Then someone will go on for several paragraphs about how many CP they can burn in a turn factoring in the Veritas Vitae. The point I feel they miss though is that these MSU choices:

 

1. More likely than not can't utilize the the more powerful of our stratagems (Wings of Fire, Descent of Angels, Lucifier Pattern Engines, Red Rampage) for a variety of reasons, such as them not being Jump Infantry, not many characters to utilize the character specific stratagems, not having many/any vehicles, etc.

 

2. The lack of variety in choice when going for barebones squads with no upgrades to fit in 2 battalions (and otherwise make as many formations as possible to generate CP), which can leave one fatally low on anti-tank, concentrated anti-infantry/heavy infantry, etc.

 

Its for these 2 reasons I don't advocate for lists that value CP over unit choice/variety.

[MeltaRange]

With all due respect, I disagree on both points wholeheartedly.

 

#1: we can bring absurdly powerful characters that are excellent targets for the stratagems you bring up, plus more. Double battalions means you will have 4 HQ min, so I'm not too sure on your last sentence there... were you talking specifically about a brigade?

 

#2 I haven't played a competitive game in 8th yet where troops were not a vital part of the victory either by being the models winning the mission points or simply dying where they needed to die. I would take 4 troops every game even if CP had nothing to do with it. 6 troops can fit comfortably in around 500-600 points and do work. They also synergize extremely well with HQ so really it's a no brainer to me.

 

9 CP minimum at 2000 IMO.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Good catch, matey. 

 

I didnt realise that restriction.  Means Veritas is out.  Not a train smash though, the other ones even better. 

 

But you should be able to just use the Stratagem that allows to take more relics? It doesn't specify that you have to already have to have one, just that it allows you to pick one or two depending on how many CP's you spend.

[Morticon]

 

Good catch, matey. 

 

I didnt realise that restriction.  Means Veritas is out.  Not a train smash though, the other ones even better. 

 

But you should be able to just use the Stratagem that allows to take more relics? It doesn't specify that you have to already have to have one, just that it allows you to pick one or two depending on how many CP's you spend.

 

For me the verbiage including "extra" implies the conditions for having one in the first place.  I wouldnt feel comfy with that, so i'll try see if I value the CP generation, or the Banner more! 

 

 

[Schlitzaf]

It’ll be FAQ’s the same way C:SM has been. For CP’s, if you are willing to soup, 1 BA Battlelion, 1 IG Battlelion, and 1 “Speciality” Detachement Or 1 BA Battlelion and 2 “Speciality” Detachments. Giving 7-9 CP. Keeping 3-4 for rerolls and atleats 2 to interruption leaves with two to four for relics and other strategemens Edited December 22, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[Withershadow]

For what it's worth, GW"s stance on matched play and what is being seen in most organized events is a 3-detachment limit.

[spiros14]

What about a Damocles Command Rhino? It is an Index vehicle, and Forgeworld (although tournaments are beginning to allow that sort of thing) but being able to get a command point a turn is very helpful.

[Kappel]

You can also just take Roboute. With or without a small detachment of shooty Ultramarines. 

 

He is so powerfull that he is a bonus for all Imperial Army lists IMO. He gives reroll 1's to all your BA's. He comes with 3 CP's, and if you make him Warlord you get all spend CP's back on a 5+. 

[Charlo]

You can also just take Roboute. With or without a small detachment of shooty Ultramarines.

 

He is so powerfull that he is a bonus for all Imperial Army lists IMO. He gives reroll 1's to all your BA's. He comes with 3 CP's, and if you make him Warlord you get all spend CP's back on a 5+.

I think I'm not the only one here when I say EW.