Too many CP?

[brother_b]

 

Im playing with the idea of CP mining from IG.  It's dirty, but I think its a useful tax. 

75 points for a patrol detachment - get an IG commander with a 10man infantry squad.  Give the commander brilliant strat and the IG relic.  

 

Then take Veritas too. 

 

This means each time you use a strategem:

 

1.  You roll a die and on a 5+ you get +1 CP. 

2.  You roll a die for each CP spend and on a 5+ you get +1 CP. 

 

and

 

3.  Each time your enemy uses a strategem, you roll a die and on a 5+ you get +1 CP.  

 

75 points for all that.  

 

I'm looking to inlcude it in dirty tourney lists if i rock non-brigade builds. 

 

On the one hand, this is a great way to get CP and could even be a bit fluffy with BA coming in to relieve the beleaguered last defenders....

 

But maybe it's intentional that marines get less CP overall?

 

Probably not... In fact it seems like the biggest oversight of the edition IMO.

 

 

I think one of the biggest failures of this edition (and I say failure even though I love this edition) is the treatment of elite units in general and space marines specifically.

 

In the fluff tactical marines are basically the epitome of the elite warrior. They are the best of the best, save for of course the first company. This just does not translate onto the battlefield, at all. Tactical marines are basically garbage in points-based games. Sure some generals have won with las-cannon tactical squads but overall, they're meh.

 

Primaris marines are basically what "legacy/regular/old" marines should have been. Many have said it, I'm just echoing those statements.

 

The real problem is the fact that cheap bodies are just so much better. IG, for instance, probably the biggest example of the failure of elite infantry.

 

IG can easily come up with a brigade, or more for an enormous amount of CP. Couple this with the fact that fluff says a space marine is unequalled in terms of combat, flexibility, and skill. This doesn't hold up.

 

IG, with orders, are much more elite than our marines. They shoot more, can move farther (up to 24" with move move move which is just stupid imho), are more accurate, etc, etc. The fact that they're "worse" stat wise doesn't matter when you can buff them so efficiently with orders. Quantity this time around is better than quality. At the minimum they should have a worse LD, and worse armor, making them actual cannon fodder. Anyway, IG was just an example.

 

So I don't know how many CP we really need. I just know that I've played with 7 CPs and it was not enough. That's with the index. I've yet to play with the Codex but out of the gate I'll probably be down 2 CP.

 

So yeah, I feel I could use 10-12 CP, would be super excited with 9, but will probably only be able to get 7. Make that 5 after DC captain and two relics.

[dakkamasta]

I've quickly come to terms with the fact that we can't bring many CP in a pure Blood Angels list without hindering the effectiveness of the list itself. The double battalion is the best way to go but I personally don't even own enough troops units to fill up 6 slots. Even then, aside from spamming barebones scout squads, taking 6 troops units in a Blood Angels army takes up to many points for my liking.

 

As allies have been mentioned earlier, I'll be usually running a small AM battalion with something along the lines of 2 company commanders and 3 infantry squads with either a heavy weapon or a flamer. For a touch over 200 pts, you're getting 3 CP plus 30 bodies to either hold backfield objectives, bubblewrap precious vehicles, or simply move up and throw themselves at the enemy. It ironically gives you more list flexibility than take a second BA battalion since the 2 HQs alone would cost more than the entire AM battalion. So I guess I get to have my cake and eat it too.

 

As for people that swear by purist lists I understand that this doesn't really solve any of their problems. But AM is already one of my other armies so I'm more than happy to throw them in regardless of the extra CP. The fact that it unlocks more stratagem use whilst adding high model count for the smallest point investment is perfect for me.

[Kappel]

 

You can also just take Roboute. With or without a small detachment of shooty Ultramarines.

He is so powerfull that he is a bonus for all Imperial Army lists IMO. He gives reroll 1's to all your BA's. He comes with 3 CP's, and if you make him Warlord you get all spend CP's back on a 5+.

I think I'm not the only one here when I say EW.

Haha, fair enough. I was just trying to answer the question though. If you wanna make hard lists with many CP, Robo is just an option that you can’t ignore in your analysis.

 

I wouldn’t take him in a friendly game as a CP mill for BA (although I do think he is a cool character, both in fluff and game - of that I am guilty as charged).

[brother_b]

 It ironically gives you more list flexibility than take a second BA battalion since the 2 HQs alone would cost more than the entire AM battalion. So I guess I get to have my cake and eat it too.

 

And that is the crux of it all. SM bodies need to drop in points.

[tychobi]

I think this thread mirrors my thought process so closely. Feels good.

 

Well for me Robo is not my cuppa but he is efficiency in a bucket.

 

I was however going to put Creed up for consideration with an Aquila commander and a few infantry units as a cp factory. 5cp and a 5+ steal for 250ish after a couple heavy weapons. Gonna cost a cp to buy my wings but seems like it could really give the room we are looking for.

[Withershadow]

Im playing with the idea of CP mining from IG.  It's dirty, but I think its a useful tax. 

75 points for a patrol detachment - get an IG commander with a 10man infantry squad.  Give the commander brilliant strat and the IG relic.  

 

Then take Veritas too. 

 

This means each time you use a strategem:

 

1.  You roll a die and on a 5+ you get +1 CP. 

2.  You roll a die for each CP spend and on a 5+ you get +1 CP. 

 

and

 

3.  Each time your enemy uses a strategem, you roll a die and on a 5+ you get +1 CP.  

 

75 points for all that.  

 

I'm looking to inlcude it in dirty tourney lists if i rock non-brigade builds. 

So the warlord would be the Guardsman?  Hide him really well, I guess!

 

Also, this wouldn't actually work.  You can only take relics from the codex of your warlord, so you would be giving up all Blood Angels relics.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Withershadow

[Schlitzaf]

Only true for Approved Armies. You don’t get a free relic beside the one your warlord in. Through another question need asking is what Speciality Detachment? Vangaurd seems like the best but while Assault Marines are lackluster they are inexpensive special platforms.

 

Also what three HQ’s? Liutanent/Captain (Or Chaplain) is generally the first two. But Libarian/Sang Priest/Other for the ‘Speciality’ Detachment?

[Withershadow]

I don't know what "approved armies" means.  I do know that every codex has a variation of this rule: "If your army is led by a BLOOD ANGELS Warlord, then before the battle you may give one of the following items to a BLOOD ANGELS CHARACTER."  So yes, you definitely lose the free first relic.

 

I can see the argument that a stratagem-bought relic does not fall under this restriction, then again the stratagems say you can take an EXTRA relic, which implies you must have the first one too.

[Schlitzaf]

Approved armies meaning armies in Chapter Approved not their Codex. Through I suppose the “extra” reading make sense. Edited December 24, 2017 by Schlitzaf