Fight Phase Tactica

[Diagramdude]

Hi all! Been reading these forums avidly to get insights into the new codex and felt I could contribute to the discussion. From what I’ve gathered from reading other posts, I think people conclude assault just isn’t viable because your enemy can just walk away you and you’ll get blown away by the rest of the army.

 

If you haven’t seen this article by Frontline Gaming, it’s well worth a read. Basically, clever use of the charge, pile in, and advance moves allow you to move even further than you can in the movement phase. Critically, most of the Blood Angels’ premier assault units can Fly, meaning your 3” pile in and consolidate moves can move past models as if they weren’t there. Given standard 32 or even 40mm bases, you can start 0.1 inches on one side of an enemy model and use your 3” move to end 0.01 inches on the other side of him.

 

I hope this diagram is useful! If you can get three points of contact on an enemy model that cannot fly, to where on his circular base he can’t go 180 degrees without contacting another one of your bases, then he is trapped and cannot move during his fight activation and cannot fall back during his own movement phase, because models “cannot be moved through other models” (BRB pg 177).

 

In other words, if your assault units can trap even one enemy model, then your unit cannot be targeted and can then butcher the enemy unit during THEIR fight phase, and be free to continue the carnage on your next turn.

 

I really hope this is useful stuff, and I’d be happy to continue more on this topic. I think a lot of players underestimate the complexity of the fight phase; I see so many battle reports where the charge roll is viewed as a formality for units that are so close they cannot fail.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Diagramdude

[xanthate]

Very interesting indeed, haven't thought of that.

[Karhedron]

It is true there are some canny tricks you can use to get around enemy units and suck others into combat. However they tend to rely on your opponent being careless such as bunching units together or deploying his screening units in a single thin line. Whilst they are useful tips to bear in mind, you either need your opponent to make a mistake to exploit them or cause enough casualties from shooting that the integrity of the screening unit is compromised. Either way, your assault elements are still going to require significant fire support to clear chaff if they are going to make their charge stick and not simply get blown away in the following firing phase.

[Are Verlo]

Thanks for bringing this up. It was a great article. I´ll have to practice some to get this technique in my finger tips (ie remember it i the heat of a close game).

[Xerxus]

On a related note I'm considering bringing a Terminator Librarian with a Storm Shield to support fight phase shenanigans. If he successfully manifests Wings of Sanguinius after deepstriking he can easily charge past a screen and get into melee with the backline. In conjunction with a simultaneous charge by an SG/DC unit it will be easier to lock models in melee or get into melee with more of their shooty units. Also, given that he is just one model with a 40mm base he will be able to exploit small gaps in the opponent's deepstrike denial area. 5 wounds with 2+ 3++ can be difficult to get rid off, even if he doesn't deal a lot of damage on his own he could be disruptive enough to be worthwhile.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Xerxus

[Crimson Ghost IX]

FLG really are a great resource for game knowledge, lots of great gems that make you go hmmmm on there.

 

They have informed my game a great deal watching them on twitch and reading them this year.

Very free and supportive with their knowledge too. Outside of NDA things with GW obviously.

 

Read and think on those linked ideas if you are not already for sure. They are Sooo Goood =)

8th has some really neat and sometimes annoying dance moves on the table outside of the math hammer list building stage.

 

Those are counterable SO really think on that level too; as Karhedronuk very wisely points out.

[MeltaRange]

One thing he talks about in the article is the ability to trap and Imperial Knight - just keep in mind that they can, with the Super Heavy Walker rule, move over infantry with ease.  He specifically cites using Plague Drones (cavalry) for that purpose which is fine, but Blood Angels don't really have much that could do that except Bikes or Vehicles.  Certainly does potentially increase the value of Bikes I guess if you want to use this tactic to trap big stuff.

[Panzer]

One thing he talks about in the article is the ability to trap and Imperial Knight - just keep in mind that they can, with the Super Heavy Walker rule, move over infantry with ease.  He specifically cites using Plague Drones (cavalry) for that purpose which is fine, but Blood Angels don't really have much that could do that except Bikes or Vehicles.  Certainly does potentially increase the value of Bikes I guess if you want to use this tactic to trap big stuff.

Always depends on how many models you use to surround one. He has to move in a way that he is not within 1" of an enemy model anymore if he wants to fall back. ;)

Edited December 19, 2017 by sfPanzer

[Diagramdude]

I want to introduce a very powerful maneuver to exploit screens, specifically the Astra Militarum scout sentinel, although the concept applies to any screen unit that cannot fly.

 

Let's say your up against Astra Militarum and he scout moves his sentinels 9" up to extend his deep strike denial bubble. Drop your jump pack assault unit, for example 15 JP Death Company, 9" away from the sentinel and use Descent of Angels to (probably) roll the 9+ needed to get in.

 

Now move your first model within an inch of the sentinel as per the charge rules. However, move the other 14 models up to 9" but have them avoid being within an inch of the sentinel AND avoid them being within an inch of the first model you moved into combat. 

 

During the DC's fight activation, use the 3" pile in to get closer to the enemy gunline but keep the other 14 outside of 1" from both the sentinel and your first model. Now when you swing, only the first model, preferably a chainsword model, is eligible to swing on the sentinel. It's impossible for the sentinel to die, and then you use your 3" consolidate to fully surround the sentinel. 

 

The sentinel strikes back with its one attack and can, at worst, kill one death company. 

 

At the end of your turn, the sentinel is trapped and your death company cannot be shot during your opponent's shooting phase. Proceed to destroy the sentinel during your opponent's fight phase, consolidate another 3" closer to the enemy lines, and you've got 15, 14 at the worst, JP DC ready to leap 12" over the next screen and get into the guts of his army. 

[swordofmandulis]

Diagramdude this I like, will likely be tough to pull off and not happen all that often, but it does sound pretty awesome.

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

I was totally unaware that you can still activate charging units after their initial target had been wiped (he gives the examples of a Mek and Stormboyz)- I'd assumed the 1" activation rule applied to them as well. The more you know...

 

I'd accidentally stumbled onto the 3 points of contact rule myself in my first 8th edition game- trapped my opponent's last surviving Rough Rider with my last 4 Berzerkers to avoid them taking fire from 2 Leman Russes, that move ended up winning me the game...but I had not considered the implications of the Fly rule on this.

 

As Diagramdude notes above, this is actually pretty huge- turn 1 deepstrike charges don't necessarily have to result in the charger getting shot off the board on turn 2 as many of us (myself included) had assumed. I foresee this being very powerful used in conjunction with staggered waves of deepstrikers as holes open up in the enemy's formation.

[Diagramdude]

Another thing to note is a 5 man unit can easily surround most vehicles if they can make the charge. Using your 3" pile in to skirt around the sides of the vehicle, then the 3" consolidate to fully envelop it (a Leman Russ is roughly 5"x3"), ending just slightly closer each time, you should be able to fit a 5 man MSU around the vehicle while maintaining the 2" unit coherency. 

 

I think that the post-codex BA has a very high skill ceiling, and it feels very tactically rewarding. Upon Wings of Fire and Descent of Angels are just solid gold stratagems. Say you successfully trap a Russ, you probably won't melee it down in their turn but on your turn you can Wings away to another critical spot and then freely target the Russ with your shooty units. And as people have pointed out elsewhere, DoA can target units that used Wings in the movement phase...

 

I also now view pistols, especially the Inferno Pistol, in a new light, because if you can trap a unit you have the chance to actually take advantage of the pistols' shooting on your turn, and if you eliminate that unit in the shooting phase you are now free to charge something else in the charge phase.

 

I want to supplement these ideas with some illustrations but I can't figure out how to properly link a mobile-friendly image! If anyone knows how please let me know! I'm pretty new to posting on forums.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Surrounding the vehicle for the slow beatdown and actually perhaps using an inferno pistol - hmmm =)

The opportunity costs for the inferno pistols might still be too high.

But I have been wanting to shoot something with one of those in CQC all edition.

 

Hmm I dunno on the image. My idea didn't work.

My Forum Fu sucks too.

 

Will screw with it and edit if I get it.

 

This is useful.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/141716-posting-and-hosting-images-at-the-bc/

 

Think I am still using wrong addy with img or perhaps pic is too big or not hotlinkable or  something =)

 

 

 

Thanks for trying to advise me Jolemai =)

Edited December 20, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Jolemai]

Use IMG instead of image :)

[Diagramdude]

Bumping, this is the "tri-lock" thread Morticon mentioned in his BA Dex Observations thread

[Diagramdude]

Going to continue in this thread with assault phase tactics as I practice on table:

 

Descent of Angels is extremely strong, a 3D6 charge is very reliable especially with a command reroll on the worst die.

 

I want to point out one very devastating tactic one can employ with a large squad of death company: fully surrounding a transport before killing it.

 

A 10 man death company squad can fully surround a rhino, and per the emergency disembark rules, you must disembark passengers BEFORE removing the destroyed transport model. All passenger models must be set up within 3" of the transport and more than 1" from enemy models, any models that cannot be set up in this manner are DESTROYED.

 

If you get the death company within an inch of the rhino but not base to hull, all of the passenger models will automatically be destroyed if you can kill the rhino. Your death company are .999" from the rhino in all directions, they have 1.26" (32mm) diameter bases, and therefore it is impossible for the enemy passengers to set themselves up within 3" of their transport without getting within 1" of the death co.

 

This would work against other transports but I have only successfully done it against a chaos rhino...with Khârn and nine bezerkers inside!

 

It's a very powerful tactic that is relatively reliable as well due to the 3D6 charge range. Do be aware though that you will only have your initial charge move and the 3" pile in move to get your surround, the 3" consolidate would happen after the rhino is removed and passengers emergency disembark, assuming you did actually destroy it!

 

Happy hunting!

Edited January 25, 2018 by Diagramdude

[Morticon]

Good tactic with the bigger base! Thanks. 

Be reminded though that the pile in move must bring you closer to the nearest enemy - so, you will literally be moving fractions closer as you move in. 

 

 

The key to pulling this off is to move within an inch of the vehicle, but no closer in the initial charge. Then "fraction-nudge" with your pile-in if need be.   

[Diagramdude]

Mort, important to note only the first charging model needs to move within an inch of the enemy unit. All other models can move however they want up to the charge distance. So, depending on your charge roll of course, you can bank on the additional 3" of pile in you'll get when they activate and do their charge move in a way that ensures a surround after the pile in.

 

Not every model needs to be within an inch before piling in.

[Morticon]

Good distinction/clarification there too!!!  Thanks.

:tu: 

[Charlo]

Just to be clear...

1. Charge first model to be within 1" of the Rhino
2. Move the rest of the DC up to the distance you rolled for charge in any direction (start to surround the Rhino)
3. Choose the DC to fight
4. They now pile in 3" each before they attack, completing the "lock" around the Rhino
5. Do your attacks and crush it and the inhabitants

Right?

[Blackcadian]

I’d love to do that vs a Wraith Guard Wave Serpent or Fire Dragons Falcon. Must try next time!

[Morticon]

Just to be clear...

1. Charge first model to be within 1" of the Rhino
2. Move the rest of the DC up to the distance you rolled for charge in any direction (start to surround the Rhino)
3. Choose the DC to fight
4. They now pile in 3" each before they attack, - they must end their move closer to the nearest model, but must end  +-0.90" to it, so that their bases are prevent enemy escape -   completing the "lock" around the Rhino -
5. Do your attacks and crush it and the inhabitants

Right?

Right. 

[Diagramdude]

Charlo, yes exactly, of course you need to stay within 2" unit coherency at the end of each move and you cant end your charge move within an inch of any enemies you didn't declare in your charge.

This tactic really shines if you end up having to go second, since, at least with rhinos, the opponent tends to zoom up the board and pop smoke for defense. The ability to drop down a large death company 9" away is solid gold with the 3d6 charge because you should be able to surround the transport every time.

 

Also now that I have the BRB in front of me, any models that cannot disembark are "slain" not "destroyed" if that ever comes up for some rules purpose.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Diagramdude

[Firepower]

All of this sounds great and I'd love to incorporate it into my Templars.  Units being able to simply walk away from a melee is a death sentence for most of my units.

 

That being said, for one reason or another I'm evidently rather thick when it comes to simply reading rules.  The frustration is strong 

 

Anyway, what specific info in there can I beat into my skull to help my non-<FLY> units?  Not all of us have Jump Packs growing out of our ears

Edited January 26, 2018 by Firepower

[Diagramdude]

Well without Descent of Angels it will be hard to get a full surround on a transport out in the open. 

 

But I think the main take-away of this thread so far would be what we are calling the "Tri-lock." It's much much easier to accomplish with <FLY> units because you can essentially move through models. BUT! Assuming you are in a melee involving multiple models versus multiple models, the key is to get three of your models in a triangle base to base lock against one of the enemy's models that cannot fly. Think the Mickey Mouse icon with a third "ear" growing from his chin. https://imgur.com/a/dAzuX is the original diagram I drew up at the start of this post.

 

By the power of geometry, if the enemy model's circular base cannot go 180 degrees without reaching another of your locking models, then he cannot Fall Back in the movement phase because he cannot move through your models. He is locked down and your melee unit cannot be shot at during the shooting phase.