Deathwatch write up to submit to GW

[shanewatts]

Hey all,

 

I was doing a write up with the state of Deathwatch post Chapter Approved and was hoping for your input regarding things I missed, corrections etc. Here is the current draft:

 

 

 

One of the problems with Deathwatch is that essentially they pay points for their chapter tactic. Each unit costs more points than its traditional space marine counterpart for this special rule. The other issue with this is that any weapon upgrades a model takes nullify this benefit, but still cost the points.

With the chapter approved changes Deathwatch has seen the points for primaris marines drop, which is great, but also poses problems. Right now Intercessors are cheaper than a un-upgraded veteran kill team. Intercessors effectively fire a weapon that is the same profile as one of the better ammo types of special issue ammo, yet have two wounds each. So essentially they are twice as survivable versus small arms fire, with a reduced special issue ammo versatility, and are cheaper. Making them a better option than a kill team.

But what about the special weapons that kill teams can take, such as the awesome frag cannon? Well right now the frag cannon is good, but not as good as it was in 7th. The solid shot profile effectively is an overpriced plasma gun, and the frag round while good lost its "rending" capability from 7th. So effectively the frag cannon is lesser on both of its profiles from 7th. Another problem is that the frag cannons frag round has the exact same profile as the hellhound. The problem this poses is that the hellhound has twice the range as a frag cannon, is cheaper than a kill team with a frag cannon, is more mobile, and more survivable. Long story short, the hellhound does what the frag cannon does cheaper, more effectively, and without the need for transport/support.

But what about the special rules that adding vanguard, termies, or bikes bring? While these rules sound nice on paper, they either rarely come into effect or make the unit very hard to be useful. - Adding a vanguard lets the unit fall back and fire for a slight point increase vs another vet. Which would be ideal for a kill team, however most close combat units that would charge a kill team are going to mulch the unit, meaning this special rule rarely is effective. Assuming the vanguard survives, there are very few other members that will have as well that will be able to take advantage of this rule.

- Adding a terminator allows the unit to ignore morale, which is effective for a max size kill team, is mostly useless for a minimal sized one since the unit is already re-rolling failed morale checks on LD8, which for a 6 man unit, assuming 5 casualties, still only fails 25 percent of the time. Also terminators tend to be one of the first casualties in the unit, using their superior armor to survive vs small arms, but as soon as they take that first wound, they must continue to be allocated against. In addition to the fact that terminators have the special issue ammo rule and pay a point premium, but can never use the rule since storm bolters are not included in the weapons that can use the rule, making it useless.

- Adding a biker allows the unit to charge after falling, which is a twofold problem rule. While a kill team can be setup for melee, and vanguard vet squad will have the same melee options but way more mobility, which makes a melee kill team rely on a transport for mobility. Which leads to the second problem, a biker can only fit in a corvus, which means the moment your melee kill team adds a biker, it either walks, or rides in a corvus. At best that kill team will have a chance to fight the turn after the corvus moves, typically turn 2 at best.

TLDR - kill teams that add vanguard/terms/bikes will be hard to utilize/stay mobile and rarely benefit from the special rules.
 

 

With all of these problems in mind and the changes to Primaris, this leads Deathwatch players to use primaris marines in order to be effective. Which leads to the real question and problem, if you are using a Primaris based army, why play Deathwatch? Any other chapter of Primaris has chapter tactics, or blood angel/dark angel special rules, not to mention access to all the Primaris line (Deathwatch don't get the Primaris Lieutenant or Primaris Ancient, 2 models they greatly need.) Primaris do not get the special issue ammo rule from Deathwatch due to the weapons stipulated in the rule. Players I know have been playing their Deathwatch army using the Space Marine codex instead, allowing them to use the same models, while gaining chapter tactics, and strategems, that Deathwatch just doesn't offer them.

Deathwatch is one of my favorite armies, it is a thematic army that is centered on rich stories. Prior to having a codex in 7th I had played Deathwatch using the traditional space marine rules. With the inclusion of their own codex I was very excited to play them standing on their own rules, and I am fairly disappointed with their current rule set. I would love to help reinvigorate this armie's rule set and I truly hope that they receive the love and help that they need going forward with their rules.

[Thanatos31]

Great initiative - this should be sent to the new rules feedback email adress GW has opened - after the text has been revised a bit. 

I think all your points are fair and good, the following I would add/elaborate/change a bit:

We are paying for SIA, but not all Bolter profiles take it ( Captain, Stormbolter, MasterCrafted etc) --> characters need to benefit from this, as well as heavy weapons and terminators. Otherwise the blanket SIA cost across Deathwatch is simply unfair and also pushes the DW into the place it is right now - overpriced with limited survivability. 

 

The point you make about the Moral & Terminators is great, I'd just add in that 8th edition rewards MSU tactics , so this further dampenes the effect terminators have in our kill teams

 

A big missing element is that we have a great big arbitrary limitation on weapons, characters and equipment choices. 
Currently every normal vanilla SM chapter benefits from synergies and buffs via characters more than the deathwatch - we just dont have the same amount of bodies or even wounds available because of this, let alone the options and answers to certain problems specific armies pose to us. 

 

Lastly, as I would send this to GamesWorkshop, I would also ask what the intent behind the Deathwatch is, looking at their entire system -- meaning : how does GamesWorkshop and their Rulecreators see the DW to be played? How do I need to build lists to make them viable across all 3 modes of play? What is their intent behind the rules , heck , asking "how are we successfull with this chosesn army" could be a question, since the current rule set, model selection , equipment selection and limitations and points cost do not make the DW stand a chance. 

 

 

Did you plan on sending this to GW? 

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Be careful when you complain about not have vanilla options.

 

BT were complaining in 4ed, And we were rolled into SM codex:):).

 

Just be careful What you are asking for:)

Edited December 19, 2017 by Aegir_Einarsson

[Major_Gilbear]

Firstly, some very good points, well done.

 

Secondly... There's a lot of info there, and to make it digestible for the rules team (who will be inundated with such emails/letters) I think it needs to be more structured and more concise.

 

Thirdly, I think you need to present some (simple) solutions to some of the issues if you can. You are much more likely to get a favourable response if you show that you've considered the wider picture and have some ideas to help.

 

(As a side note, I think that asking for more units/options from the vanilla codex is unlikely to yield results unless they are options that come in kits GW already make).

 

For my own brief input, I think that the SIA points issue could be solved simply by making the various bolt weapons that are currently permitted to use SIA into "Deathwatch Bolter", "Deathwatch Bolt Pistol", etc, and baking the SIA points into those rather than the marines. I also feel the Infernus Heavy Bolter is pretty awful and needs either a re-think or a very significant points-drop. Similarly the Heavy Thunder Hammer.

[Vel'Cona]

I'll need to take some time and read through this, but thanks for the write-up!

[mjrwaud]

Great initiative!

 

If we could all get on the same page, it'd be really helpful and perhaps more effective if we could each send a unified critique / wishlist to GW's recently discussed "rule / suggestion" e-mail address (40kfaq@gwplc.com) as mentioned on their community site (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/12/15/the-future-of-faqs-and-chapter-approved-dec-15gw-homepage-post-2/).

 

Looking forward to reading the opinions of those a little more informed / experienced than I!

[Halandaar]

In addition to the fact that terminators have the special issue ammo rule and pay a point premium, but can never use the rule since storm bolters are not included in the weapons that can use the rule, making it useless.

 

This isn't actually correct; Deathwatch Terminators do not have the Special Issue Ammunition rule on their own datasheet, they only gain it when included as part of a Kill Team unit (which has SIA as a unit-wide rule), and you pay the same points for a Terminator who doesn't have SIA as you do for one who does. The points premium you refer to (a not insignificant 6ppm more than a Vanilla Terminator) therefore cannot be for SIA, and is almost certainly for the ability to always pass morale tests, which can be passed on to the Kill Team. The same can be said for Vanguard Veterans and Bikers, who are paying extra for the ability to pretend to be Ultramarines and White Scars respectively, and to pass those abilities on. I know you've already discussed those various rules and their pros/cons, but that's what you're paying for, not SIA.

 

Anyway, I think my suggestion for a solution to the issue would be to play up the mixed unit approach and make it Deathwatch's USP, allowing models from any of the 4 "core" units to join any of the others. If you could allow entire bike squads to fall back and still shoot by including a Vanguard Veteran, or allow VanVets to fall back and charge by including a Biker, I feel like that would justify some more of the increased points cost of the individual models. Allow Storm Bolters to benefit from Special Issue Ammunition, and then allow Kill Team Veterans to join Terminator Squads to grant them the rule.

 

IMO this solution would leave the faction feeling the most unique, rather than just blandly adjusting the points costs we have now.

[Thanatos31]

Be careful when you complain about not have vanilla options.

 

BT were complaining in 4ed, And we were rolled into SM codex:).

 

Just be careful What you are asking for:)

 

 

Lets just say, getting a response from the GW team will be an achievement in itself ;) 

 

But if you share the write up and the email adress, and also share this across FB and various groups, maybe theres a reply :) 

[bluntpencil]

Be careful with 'Deathwatch bolters' - we might not get SIA in our Combi-weapons that way.

 

Just increase the points for any bolt weapon wielded by Deathwatch, and let them all use SIA. Include Storm Bolters and Hurricane Bolters, to make them extra scary.

[Mobius0288]

So I've posted several times on their social media page. I'll offer my view here about what I said (and will try not to repeat too much).

 

Previous points made on social media:

- Point cost as compared to regular space marines

- Paying for special issue ammunition

- High costs associated with mixed kill teams

- Requested a better faction focus or some kind of intent with Deathwatch

 

Previous solutions offered on social media:

- Lower the base cost of veterans

- Lower the minimum squad of veterans from 5 to 3 (if points cost stayed the same, this would hopefully encourage more mixed unit kill teams)

 

 

Things I'd offer for this conversation:

- Intercessors cost less then naked kill teams, so why would I ever take a pure bolter kill team?

 

- Frag cannons are pretty awesome right now considering it's an assault profile weapon and the damage output/flexibility matches the cost IMO.

 

- The infernus heavy bolter is almost never used and could somehow be adjusted (20 instead of 25 points cost?).

 

- The Heavy Thunder Hammer, as compared to the recently reduced thunder hammer and power fist, is over costed for it's damage output and limitations (two-handed weapon).

 

- Melee kill teams: Agreed that they are pointless unless the base veteran cost comes down and/or I don't pay for SIA.

 

- Terminators aren't only used for morale purposes in kill teams.

-- While I agree they're still pricey compared to vanilla, they do offer other options for kill teams (2+ armor save, teleport ability, sometimes heavy weapon options). Soaking up wounds is a positive thing if you take them bare-bones (power weapon/storm bolter). If you kit him out, then don't let him take fire first. I would stick to the point cost argument.

-- Mentioning the pointless morale rule for kill teams may have unintended consequences, like lowering the current leadership stat (which is already 1 higher then regular marines?) I have no feeling on the morale rule, one way or the other.

 

- Vanguard in kill team: Only issue I have is the point cost. While their ability isn't clutch due to the gun line mechanics the core rules have created, it's still very useful if your kill team is loaded up with important / heavy weapons.

 

- Bikers in kill team: I don't even know what to do with this... I can't use their mobility. There's potential with the teleport home but only if you include terminators in the kill teams. Can't regular biker units do this anyways? I need their bolter guns for the added fire power, so why would I charge them? I need a vanguard in the squad to make use of both abilities.

 

 

Realistic solutions I would offer:

- Reduce infantry point cost to match Codex: Space Marine (Space Marine Company Veteran)

- Reduce minimum Kill Team unit from 5 to 3 (as to encourage more mixed kill team types - Space Marine company veterans have a unit minimum of two for comparison)

- Reduce Infernus Heavy bolter to at least 20 points

- Reduce Heavy Thunder Hammer to at least 20 points

- Maybe give us an option to take just Vanguard and Bikes in a kill team (as to better use their mobility, special rules and give us another option to not use a corvus blackstar)

 

Personal wants:

- Make Deathwatch unique from Space Marine factions: Dreadnaught character HQ, another fluffy character/champion or two

- Give us regular apothecaries so we can still utilize transports (helps kill team emphasis)

- Give us a "Deathwatch techmarine" in kill teams (reduce total wounds), ability could be something like +1 cover save... or as an elite choice using current data sheet

- Jump pack chaplains (to keep up with Vanguard or better support multiple front line kill teams)

- Ancient equivalent (I don't think a banner bearer fits the special ops feel but his ability would put more emphasis on kill team usage)

Edited December 19, 2017 by Mobius0288

[Moostick]

There will be too many different opinions and ideas to be coherent.

 

I'll just say one thing:

 

Please stop treating Deathwatch like Space Marines + SIA and some random generic rules that don't even synergize. You were able to make Death Guard completely unique from Chaos, please treat Deathwatch the same way.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I would try and condense the message into a couple of paragraphs. I think they're aware of these problems and that they did a poor job of advertising what they intended to do with chapter approved (which seemed to be a lot more concerned with balancing existing codex than helping out the fractions without one).

 

In my opinion its more important to make it clear that you want deathwatch, and the parts of the fraction that appeal to you. By all means list your issues, I did in the survey lol. But its really early in the process and with the right stratagems and a few tweaks it could get very interesting so keep your head up. 

[TheUbikator]

I'd like to add my 2 cents to this conversation.

In my opinion, there are couple main problems DW suffers from at the moment.

-Lack of synergy between units. Besides Kill Teams, Land Raiders and Corvus Blackstars very few units work well together.
-Units aren't durable enough for their cost.
-Space Marines armies are designed to rely on characters who buff their units. But Deathwatch doesn't have access to most of them or many of them don't really fit with DW lore wise.
-DW is meant to be Delta Force in Spehhs but everything apart Kill Teams and Corvus Blackstar screams Vanilla Space Marines.

Possible solutions:
-Allow DW Land Raiders to carry bikers.
-Make DW less reliant on characters.
-Implement mission tactics such as for example: allowing units to advance and shoot normally, inflicting -1 to bs for enemy models from 12" or more, a roll of 6+ to hit producing another shot or just give +1 to wound against troops, elites etc. Those mission tactics can be changed by a player once per game, and additionally with Strategems or Warlord Traits. Only one mission tactic can be active at the same time.
-Strategems. Like for example Corvus Blackstar Rapid insertion. Unit embarked upon Corvus Blackstar can disembark at any point during its movement, provided they are set up 9" from the enemy.
-Point costs reduction. Veterans, Heavy Thunderhammer, Deathwatch Terminators, Vanguard Veterans.
-Chapter Tactic: Xeno Killers re-roll to wound rolls of 1 against models without Imperium, Chaos or Unaligned keywords. 
-Infernus Heavy Bolter, 20 pts, Assault D6 Heavy Flamer and Assault 3 heavy bolter. 
-Heavy Thunderhammer needs a little rules overhaul. For example on a wound roll of 6+ inflict D6 mortal wounds instead normal damage.
-Do not give Primaris Space Marines Special Issue Ammunition - it would make regular veterans with bolters completely obsolete.

Edited December 20, 2017 by TheUbikator

[Major_Gilbear]

Be careful with 'Deathwatch bolters' - we might not get SIA in our Combi-weapons that way.

 

Just increase the points for any bolt weapon wielded by Deathwatch, and let them all use SIA. Include Storm Bolters and Hurricane Bolters, to make them extra scary.

 

Yes, that's the point I made. I just din't feel like writing every possible weapon out and so just used as few as an example. ;)

 

 

-Allow DW Land Raiders to carry bikers.

 

If this happens, then every other SM and Chaos army will want the same. I understand why you mention it, but I can't see this happening.

 

 

-Infernus Heavy Bolter, 20 pts, Assault D6 Heavy Flamer and Assault 3 heavy bolter. 

-Heavy Thunderhammer needs a little rules overhaul. For example on a wound roll of 6+ inflict D6 mortal wounds instead normal damage.

-Do not give Primaris Space Marines Special Issue Ammunition - it would make regular veterans with bolters completely obsolete.

 

I agree with all of these, and feel that making the IHB Assault as well as dropping the cost makes it more attractive against the Frag Cannon.

 

As for Chapter Tactics... Tricky. I think that the mixed squads sort of touches on a good idea for these, but I would almost prefer to give each squad a free "fixed" tactic for the game chosen from a shortlist of maybe 6 or so. Units could change during a game to a different fixed tactic via a Stratagem. This would allow you to specialise squads a little depending on what sort of playstyle/enemy you're facing, and still allow you to change some of them mid-game if you need to.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

What about giving KT access to Every chapter tactics?

 

For example " If a KT unit include ultramarines, whole KT can fall back And shoot". And Every KT need to have different CT.

 

The same thing as it is now with bikers, jump pack, but with CT

Edited December 20, 2017 by Aegir_Einarsson

[Major_Gilbear]

What about giving KT access to Every chapter tactics?

 

For example " If a KT unit include ultramarines, whole KT can fall back And shoot". And Every KT need to have different CT.

 

The same thing as it is now with bikers, jump pack, but with CT

 

Hmm, that honestly sounds complicated, and it would place an unfair premium of specific shoulder pads from the DWVets kit.

[shanewatts]

Thanks for the input everyone, I will continue to work on the submission and will let yall see the next draft when it is completed.

 

 

 

- Frag cannons are pretty awesome right now considering it's an assault profile weapon and the damage output/flexibility matches the cost IMO.

 

Mobius I just can't agree with you on this. A frag cannon at 12" shoots 2 plasma shots at str9 effectively (without drawback) for more than double the price of a plasma gun. While I agree that flexibility should increase the cost, its just too much right now. The flexibility cost is exactly what makes the infernus unusable, in addition to being heavy. As far as the 8" profile, it is better than 2 heavy flamers at a slightly reduced cost, but compared to the hellhound as I wrote earlier, just doesn't pull it off anymore.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Major. Yes that's Right but in case of fluff it is perfect situation:). Gives some tactial flexibility, and i thought about one model with the apropriate chapter keyword.

The rest members of KT could be from other chapters.

And rule that Every chapter tactic must be different prevents, from What you say.

 

It is Also easy to implement And don't need new models/rules

[Xisor]

I think the emphasis should be on kitbashing, variety and regular+unique auras for 'specialists'.

 

Techmarines, Apothecaries etc are fairly obvious, but if there's room for other stuff like Deathwatch Keepers, Kill Marines and whatnot too - then brilliant.

 

From a financial perspective, I think GW would be mad not to emphasise kitbashing.

[TheUbikator]

 

What about giving KT access to Every chapter tactics?

 

For example " If a KT unit include ultramarines, whole KT can fall back And shoot". And Every KT need to have different CT.

 

The same thing as it is now with bikers, jump pack, but with CT

 

Hmm, that honestly sounds complicated, and it would place an unfair premium of specific shoulder pads from the DWVets kit.

 

I think mission tactics that provide bonuses from certain chapters like the raven guard, black templars or blood angels, should be cool and work nicely. You can change it at the beginning of your turn once per game (or twice with warlord trait), and with a strategem. The whole feeling "DW is every chapter at the same time" would be accomplished by this.

[LordCommanderSamirus]

 

What about giving KT access to Every chapter tactics?

 

For example " If a KT unit include ultramarines, whole KT can fall back And shoot". And Every KT need to have different CT.

 

The same thing as it is now with bikers, jump pack, but with CT

 

Hmm, that honestly sounds complicated, and it would place an unfair premium of specific shoulder pads from the DWVets kit.

 

 

Not to mention you'd never see another Imperial Fist or successor other than Templars.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Oh come on. It is total simple thing. If KT include ONE model from chapter it can use it's chapter tactic. Every other model can be from What chapter you want. And you can have only one KT with specyfic CT.

 

So No phobia about not using other chapters shoulder pads

 

 

In strict melee KT you will see some BT to re-roll charged i think.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Aegir_Einarsson

[Moostick]

We want balance, not something clearly OP. You'll see the exact same 5 chapters in every unit.

 

Ranged: Ultramarines, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Dark Angels, Salamanders

Assault: UItramarines, Iron Hands, Blood Angels, Black Templar, White Scars

[LordCommanderSamirus]

So I've posted several times on their social media page. I'll offer my view here about what I said (and will try not to repeat too much).

 

Previous points made on social media:

- Point cost as compared to regular space marines

- Paying for special issue ammunition

- High costs associated with mixed kill teams

- Requested a better faction focus or some kind of intent with Deathwatch

 

Previous solutions offered on social media:

- Lower the base cost of veterans

- Lower the minimum squad of veterans from 5 to 3 (if points cost stayed the same, this would hopefully encourage more mixed unit kill teams)

 

 

Things I'd offer for this conversation:

- Intercessors cost less then naked kill teams, so why would I ever take a pure bolter kill team?

 

- Frag cannons are pretty awesome right now considering it's an assault profile weapon and the damage output/flexibility matches the cost IMO.

 

- The infernus heavy bolter is almost never used and could somehow be adjusted (20 instead of 25 points cost?).

 

- The Heavy Thunder Hammer, as compared to the recently reduced thunder hammer and power fist, is over costed for it's damage output and limitations (two-handed weapon).

 

- Melee kill teams: Agreed that they are pointless unless the base veteran cost comes down and/or I don't pay for SIA.

 

- Terminators aren't only used for morale purposes in kill teams.

-- While I agree they're still pricey compared to vanilla, they do offer other options for kill teams (2+ armor save, teleport ability, sometimes heavy weapon options). Soaking up wounds is a positive thing if you take them bare-bones (power weapon/storm bolter). If you kit him out, then don't let him take fire first. I would stick to the point cost argument.

-- Mentioning the pointless morale rule for kill teams may have unintended consequences, like lowering the current leadership stat (which is already 1 higher then regular marines?) I have no feeling on the morale rule, one way or the other.

 

- Vanguard in kill team: Only issue I have is the point cost. While their ability isn't clutch due to the gun line mechanics the core rules have created, it's still very useful if your kill team is loaded up with important / heavy weapons.

 

- Bikers in kill team: I don't even know what to do with this... I can't use their mobility. There's potential with the teleport home but only if you include terminators in the kill teams. Can't regular biker units do this anyways? I need their bolter guns for the added fire power, so why would I charge them? I need a vanguard in the squad to make use of both abilities.

 

 

Realistic solutions I would offer:

- Reduce infantry point cost to match Codex: Space Marine (Space Marine Company Veteran)

- Reduce minimum Kill Team unit from 5 to 3 (as to encourage more mixed kill team types - Space Marine company veterans have a unit minimum of two for comparison)

- Reduce Infernus Heavy bolter to at least 20 points

- Reduce Heavy Thunder Hammer to at least 20 points

- Maybe give us an option to take just Vanguard and Bikes in a kill team (as to better use their mobility, special rules and give us another option to not use a corvus blackstar)

 

Personal wants:

- Make Deathwatch unique from Space Marine factions: Dreadnaught character HQ, another fluffy character/champion or two

- Give us regular apothecaries so we can still utilize transports (helps kill team emphasis)

- Give us a "Deathwatch techmarine" in kill teams (reduce total wounds), ability could be something like +1 cover save... or as an elite choice using current data sheet

- Jump pack chaplains (to keep up with Vanguard or better support multiple front line kill teams)

- Ancient equivalent (I don't think a banner bearer fits the special ops feel but his ability would put more emphasis on kill team usage)

 

I agree with most of this.  Only thing I'd change from this is the Heavy Thunder Hammer i feel should be Damage d6 but rolls of 1 or 2 count as a 3, similar to some of the bigger guns on the baneblade variants.  It supposed to be a Thunder Hammer... but bigger so it should always do at least as much damage.  

We want balance, not something clearly OP. You'll see the exact same 5 chapters in every unit.

 

Ranged: Ultramarines, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Dark Angels, Salamanders

Assault: UItramarines, Iron Hands, Blood Angels, Black Templar, White Scars

 

And this would be boring to see all the time.

[Xisor]

It's not a bad idea, Aegir's, *if* you divorce it from the models in the Kill Team. Just say you get free pick per individual squads at the start of the game. Maybe a Stratagem to allow the ol' switcheroo.

 

That way you can easily have many 'specialisms' in the same army, but each individual Marine is exceeding their original limitations.

 

Whether it's that useful, generally, I'm sceptical - but it is am easy enough one to think about.

 

It's less bookkeeping too, but still some on a squad by squad basis.