The Meta from large data sample

[Ishagu]

New Chapters Tactics podcast is a fascinating one.

Data from 11k+ players in multiple games.

 

Chaos (20% Marines, 5% Daemons) are by far the most powerful faction.

 

Loyalists aren't even close, literally less than half the number of top 3 finishes that Chaos manages. This includes soups etc.

 

Astra Militarum are the best loyalist faction and perform better as a pure codex than Loyalist Soups.

 

Keep in mind that the data shows Imperium is more popular in numbers but still can't touch Chaos success.

Guilliman armies perform average. Chaos soups are the top lists consistently with Marines the main focus and daemon support is popular.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Ishagu

[Schlitzaf]

That intriguing so loyalists over represents?

[Ishagu]

Space Marines make up 15% of all tournament entries but they don't achieve great results considering the player pool. Edited December 19, 2017 by Ishagu

[greatcrusade08]

haven't they just nerfed the smite spam list, might see the number of TZ marines lists shrink as a result

[Race Bannon]

Pics or it didn't happen :lol:

[Mileposter]

haven't they just nerfed the smite spam list, might see the number of TZ marines lists shrink as a result

They haven't nerfed anything yet - the Smite rules are in BETA, and only being used at one specific event that hasn't happened yet so far.

[Race Bannon]

Which is just a wee bit off-topic.  Beta-rules talk is somewhere else, I think

[Deschenus Maximus]

I'm not at all surprised by this.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

It makes sense, Chaos soup is going to be a lot easier to maximize. A lot of the best loyalist stuff relies on synergy whereas chaos has some super cool beatsticks, and that's a lot easier to figure out. 

[Firepower]

As a player whom insists on a using a single Imperial faction army, I am obliged to inform you that this data has been declared heresy. Enjoy your excommunication.

 

...nope, not surprised. :(

Edited December 19, 2017 by Firepower

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I don't know why this needed verification. It's kind of obvious when you look at Magnus and Mortarion. Did you honestly think everyone screaming "but Guilliman" actually meant anything in the face of those two?

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I can hardly wait for Reece from Front Line to write another article about how great(or misunderstood) the space marine codex is.  

[autek mor]

I can hardly wait for Reece from Front Line to write another article about how great(or misunderstood) the space marine codex is.  

 

while frankie thrashes him again.

 

so much truth in that post. should the amount of chaos players go through the roof then maybe there will be nerfs but not until they sell x amount of models first.

[Firepower]

See what happens when you give Chaos a good dex?  They start winning!  This must not stand!

 

:teehee:

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

See what happens when you give Chaos a good dex?  They start winning!  This must not stand!

 

No dude... Chaos players just know their codex better.  If Space Marine players took the time to delve into the secrets of their codex they would win more!  Just bring scouts!  etc

[Firepower]

I bring 'em all the time.  Templars just believe in hands on experience.  ;)

 

But from a data pool of 11k players, and Imperials making up the bulk of those players, there are plenty of chances for players that 'know' the C:SM dex.  At any rate, I was just making a joke

Edited December 22, 2017 by Firepower

[Captain Idaho]

Although I don't think the Space Marines Codex is great seeing what has come since (the Stratagems alone are marginal in comparison to most Codex books at this point), I do think players don't look far enough when building a list or playing it out.

 

What I mean by this is most players look at the character auras and assume they HAVE to crowd round their characters and play standing still or moving slowly.

 

I've been more successful NOT doing that. When I've spread my army out into divisions achieving goals I set for them I find I win the game. When I've clumped around a character or two I've lost to other armies that either do it better or are just so offensive they want us all in the same place.

 

Marines have good stat lines and can put the hurt on opponents almost as well as being next to that Captain. Take advantage of that. Tyranids don't like having to spread out their forces, they like to assault one side of the board. Eldar like to use overwhelming force on isolated pockets sure, but if you are operating in divisions they have to fight a stronger force whilst other divisions put pressure on them, and attrition will tell.

 

Working against Primarchs is another issue of course but if you're clumped around one set of characters, where do you think Mortarion is going to go?

[SydonianDragoon404]

The table is only 6x4 feet long Captain Idaho, and Mortarion and Magnus both have a very good movement stats. You only have so much space to work with, especially with terrain on the board. They both have fly too.

[Captain Idaho]

They are fast but they're not everywhere at once. They can only assault what they can reach and if you see them coming you can scatter as necessary.

 

Generally speaking they can only kill a single unit a turn. Magnus has powers that can reach other units but generally the unit he's assaulting is the one he's blowing up.

[SydonianDragoon404]

With the amount of attacks they get and the power behind them, in addition to large base size, you are absolutely wrong. You dont have to completely destroy a unit to be effective either, they can cripple it and force you to disengage.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not saying that the Chaos Primarchs are ineffective but I am saying they aren't the be all and end of the game. If players stopped clumping they might find that.

 

Besides, their Chaos powers aren't THAT powerful.

 

****

 

Regarding what you said about crippling a unit... this is not something that worries me. I play a minimum of 3 Tactical squads. If you cripple them down to say 2 models, I still have 2 Plasma guns who can rapid fire and overcharge. That's still a danger to enemy armies.

 

I suspect many Marines players are struggling because they're taking Primaris Marines and Intercessors just can't handle attrition well.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Captain Idaho

[Schlitzaf]

Idaho in enough numbers or in the mid field role in center, MSU Intercessors have Better attrition and mid field fire support than DoublePlas MSU Tacticals* because you can shift between melee and fire support.

 

Through to build on your point most Marine Players I see are doing 3 5 Man MSU Tacticals without Razor support. Or bodies elsewhere. You really need 40 wounds on board before you can really start adding toys

 

 

*without Razorbacks

[Captain Idaho]

I agree which is why my main 2000pts list has over 50 models in it ;)

 

Whilst I've championed horde style Intercessors before, when I say they're not particularly good attritional units I am referring to how when a unit is reduced in the number the main offensive capacity of the unit is depleted.

 

With Tactical Marines (and indeed any Space Marines squad with weapon upgrades hidden inside) the losses only account for a small total of the offensive output.

 

As an example, a Tactical squad is dangerous because it might have a Grav Cannon and dual plasma guns in it. The unit can take 7 losses and still be operating on the same level of danger to opponents. An opponent will be just as worried about them killing his Hive Tyrant as before, since the Bolters were inconsequential to his consideration for monsters for the most part.

 

Essentially, there is a curve that losses to numbers in Primaris units matches with damage output. Tactical Marines maintain damage output at a higher level right up to the last models in the unit.

[Schlitzaf]

I disagree personally, I value the melee ability of Intercessors over Tacticals. Sense being able to get stuck in and not be stuck to slap fighting is invaluable.* And fair point.

 

In that circumstance we have the Ork Boy scenario where the 29 boys are the delivery system for the Nob. I favor a mix 2 10 Men Tacticals and 2 MSU Intercessors for exactly that reason. Tacticals can provide bodies to block and counter while retaining potency with Intercessors push mid and able lay down the Bolter Fire. (Or push flank).

 

Really the best army troop wise, would consist of a mix of MSU Tacticals, 10 Man Tacticals and MSU Intercessors. (My personal suspicion is 1 or 2 10 Man Tacticals, 2 or 1 MSU Intercessors and (2 Tact and 1 Inter, or 2 Inter and 1 Tact), 1-2 MSU Tactical/Scout/Intercessor (130ish Points). Just from playing with my Crusader Squads, I have found that double Tide Crusader and Double Intercessors is an acceptably durable Center (if supported).

 

It’s weakness being lack of a front unit (My Rattlings for reasons are lackluster in that role) to stave off T1 Interceptor Style. Currently trying a Biker Squad to fill that. But I almost suspect a double or triple scout squad would fill that role appreciably better.

 

I tangented. I agree Idaho. Through I think a mix style force would be better than what we are currently seeing for Troop anyways. (Bar Razor Lists)

 

*Ultra being able to disenegage and still shoot make that less of consideration.

[Captain Idaho]

Yes well you're using Intercessors as they're supposed to be used ;)

 

Most games I watch (internet battle reports and otherwise) Intercessors are 5 man support units forced into front line duty. I think people use them like 7th Edition and expect 2 wound models to last twice as long as 1.

 

Incidentally, I think if I ever collected Primaris (I.e. won the lottery) I'd probably go Marine Horde and have at least 40 of Intercessors.