The Meta from large data sample

[Deafbok]

Idaho, I think the Primaris force I've got is the cheapest ~1500 points in cash value of models I'm able to field. Bought Dark Imperium and traded the DG models with someone else who had also bought the kit.

 

I think the increased durability for a minor points increase is well, well worth it.

 

I like the point made regarding not bunching as well - I'm aiming to create a force able to put down multiple effective firebases. Tacs and Intercessors exist to hold objectives for me.

[Dracos]

Yes well you're using Intercessors as they're supposed to be used ;)

. . . .

Incidentally, I think if I ever collected Primaris (I.e. won the lottery) I'd probably go Marine Horde and have at least 40 of Intercessors.

This ... As they say. :)

 

Or at least the start of it. Just getting back into 40k after having been lost in the Warp since 5th edition and enjoying the look of the Primaris models. I'm a strong proponent of the Rule of Cool but also used to be a (moderately successful) tournament player. Really enjoyed Games Day tournaments in Chicago and Baltimore.

 

Interesting how things come full circle. I remember hordes being the Meta back then with Monsters and Chaos regularly kicking people's butt back then too. Never understood those who would whine about basic Marines underperforming. What do you expect when your army is the baseline everything else is built from. Space Marine, especially Vanilla, have to be better players than their opposition to begin to be vaguely competitive on that level. Embrace it or turn to the Dark side ;)

 

 

PS: I want to say thanks to the Captain, Firepower and too many others to remember at the moment for your input and analysis. It has and will continue to be great advice as I start building my DIY Chapter of Fire Lions. Still trying to figure which Founding Chapter for them to originate from based on the composition of the force I'm trying to build. Headaches galore when Tournament Brain clashes with Rule of Cool Heart. :)

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

Never understood those who would whine about basic Marines underperforming. What do you expect when your army is the baseline everything else is built from. Space Marine, especially Vanilla, have to be better players than their opposition to begin to be vaguely competitive on that level.

 

Never understood why Marines being "baseline" should equal "suck". Especially in an age where you don't even NEED troops at all to have a legal list.

[Toxichobbit]

 

Interesting how things come full circle. I remember hordes being the Meta back then with Monsters and Chaos regularly kicking people's butt back then too. Never understood those who would whine about basic Marines underperforming. What do you expect when your army is the baseline everything else is built from. Space Marine, especially Vanilla, have to be better players than their opposition to begin to be vaguely competitive on that level. Embrace it or turn to the Dark side

 

 

No, I won't embrace it because it's bad game design and an even worse attitude. Marines should never have to be better players to compete. Two equal players should be competing on an equal level, not one being handicaped because they happen to like a specific army. People have every right to complain if the models they invested money in buying and time into assembling and painting are regarded baseline and everyone else's models are better. If we just sit back and accept that Marines underperform and Marine players need to be better than everyone else to be on the same level, then we're accepting paying the same money for an inferior product. We're accepting GW's poor balancing and telling them it's ok. We're abandoning those members of the community who don't want or cannot afford buy into another, more powerful army and spend their (often short) 40k careers getting destroyed, just because they picked Marines and bought into the fallacy that Marines are the elite badasses of the game.

[Mileposter]

It's not bad game design. Many games that allow the choice of faction, or class, or what have you, craft one or more of those options to be a higher-skill-required style of play. Sometimes this takes the form of needing better aiming skills, more tactical thinking, or a sharp memory - but the design is sound.

 

I can understand discontent with that design being applied to Space Marines. And I agree to a point - Space Marines is not the optimal choice for that design, but only because that is the largest segment of the player base. The "higher skill required" faction shouldn't be the "base", "starter", or "default" faction.

 

But that isn't necessarily the fault of the design. And, it does happen, that sometimes the "higher skill required" isn't even intentional - designers develop a faction or character or class to be played in X way, and it isn't until it interacts with everything (or other portion of testing with massive populations) that it's higher requirement becomes apparent.

 

I'm not to say that you shouldn't feel that Space Marines should be better - but the argument of whether "Space Marines do/don't/should/shouldn't require a higher skill level to be competitive" is a completely different topic that is worlds separated from "Are Space Marines too weak/unbalanced".

[Toxichobbit]

I don't think it's a seperate topic. Given that we're talking about Marines, the most iconic, advertised, supported and pushed model range that GW produce, taking into account it's popularity and skill level is an integral part of the question of whether Marines are too weak and/or unbalanced. It's a supporting argument - if Marine players at all strata of play are having to step up their game to play at an equal level to other armies then it shows Marines are, at least in some respects, weaker than other armies.

[Dracos]

Didn't mean to hit anyone's particular touchy subject buttons. Truly sorry for upsetting anyone who feels Marines are inferior.

 

I have been out since 5th so maybe things aren't quite what they were the 3 editions I played in earlier. I have played everything from Guard to Chaos , Marine to Eldar and found all to be competitive depending on what part of your soul you're willing to sell to put the killer build together that makes that army rock. Not every army is going to succeed with a take all comers build. They aren't designed to (i.e. Dark Eldar).

 

Not every army is the right style for every player. No matter how much you might like army X fluff models etc. It's play style may just not be your forte ... and that's okay. Sadly power creep has always been part of the game as new editions come out. I hold out hope with these new style (to me) Chapter Approved will help the situation as each edition matures. :D

[Toxichobbit]

I doubt anyone is upset. It probably just seems that way because it's in text so more blunt than if it was a conversation with body language. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

If we're talking top level competitive then Marines are at least able to compete. Like you say, if the player is willing to use certain list builds then they can at least be somewhat successful. However, that's missing the majority of players. I'm thinking more about the players who want to play with thematic armies that have cool models in them, the players who enjoy just going down to the LGS or club for a few games with their mates, the new players and the cinematic players. While they may not be as win-oriented as tournament players, I've yet to meet any player who enjoys repeatedly being clubbed like a baby seal*. A flagship army like Marines should be able to support many different styles and levels of play and still remain consistant with most other armies. We're not talking about Dark Eldar, who play a very specific way and just don't work if you try to do something else with them. We're talking about Marines who are the beginner army, the baseline, the jack of all trades, take on all comers army. Just by their position within the lore and metagame, Marines shouldn't require a player to be better  than his opponent or run a very specific list build/style in order to compete at most levels of play. A few outliers are inevitable, there will always be some armies and lists that are stronger. The problem is if almost every army is stronger than Marines, because the popularity of Marines means more players will be punished for picking them and potentially put off the game.

 

To be honest, I don't know if this is a problem. The dataset from the OP is large but I doubt any large enough body of evidence exists that will empirically prove Marines are underpowered at every strata of play. However, if they're struggling at the top level as Ishagu's data suggests and we see stuff like Tactical & Intercessor Squads being out-performed by other Troops (as suggested by the article on 3++ which has some issues it doesn't take into account, but I think the foundation is solid) then there's cause for concern at least.

 

*Marines aren't baby seal level, but there's a danger as new stuff comes out that they might get there.

[Prot]

I don't know when or where this data is truly drawn from but I do know a while ago something like this was attempted and the problem is that if you take the whole picture in, it is quite misleading.

 

Too many players play marines... this skews the results immensely.

 

I remember even during the Konor Campaign. I diligently took my Ultra's to every event... and while I did well I watched the other tables getting hammered.... No offense but there are very new players with lists that are hardly functional. Younger players basically using what they own. (which is usually marines).

 

Chaos being strong is a soup based thing.... there's no doubt. I face it enough to know the difference between what the codexes allow. Depending on how far back that data goes, it's going to be very skewed. For a while only marines and Chaos had a book.

 

I personally go by top 3 finishes. Right now Astra is in the lead for 2017. I believe they top all ITC events, combining top 3 finishes. (Only those results are used: That is to say the bottom 10 marine players trying new fun stuff out can't skew the results.)

 

For loyalists... I hate to say it but I personally believe you pull Guilliman out and there goes their rating. I see Marines mostly as the marketing tool that gets people in the door. I think you have to be a good player to use marines without Guilliman or Raven Guard and really compete on a regular basis. 

 

Chaos is largely about Alpha Legion Slaanesh + renegades. 

 

I expect the landscape to change again though so all of this means nothing other than creating a thread that seems to get people hot about their favourite army. 

 

I did expect more out of Ad Mech. That surprised me a bit. And I have to wonder how Daemons will change the landscape on gunlines... especially with 2 CP Deep Striking nasties. Also look out for Necrons. Historically the Astra Nemesis.... their book could be incredibly potent too.

 

Me? I really don't care. I stopped trying to win tournaments a while ago. I build stupid Primaris armies that shout stuff like "For The Emperor (Cawl)!" and "Indomnitus forever!" as I pack all my stuff up from 3 Giant Tzeentch birds coming down from hell and snatching/smiting my precious Primaris geneseed up. 

 

I like the challenge of marines. I just live in an area saturated with them so I know first hand how misleading that stat could be.

[Machine God]

 

See what happens when you give Chaos a good dex?  They start winning!  This must not stand!

 

No dude... Chaos players just know their codex better.  If Space Marine players took the time to delve into the secrets of their codex they would win more!  Just bring scouts!  etc

 

Just bring Iron Hands forget Characters who are they?

 

Edit: Clicked reply before typing, stupid alcohol.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Machine God

[Dracos]

 

For loyalists... I hate to say it but I personally believe you pull Guilliman out and there goes their rating. I see Marines mostly as the marketing tool that gets people in the door. I think you have to be a good player to use marines without Guilliman or Raven Guard and really compete on a regular basis.

 

I like the challenge of marines.

The concept of playing with a Primarch ... almost seems heretical to an old player returning. Cant wrap my head around it and I've always been DIY so even choosing a Chapter to be able to use one ... ah well, there are other toys and challenges :D

 

More OP: is there a Marine Chapter combination that seems to be performing well in the current Meta?

(I'm building Primaris DIY but it would nice to know if there is a bunch of underperforming builds or just players in need of a good tutorial skewing the curve?)

 

@Machine God , I feel I walked into the middle of an inside joke :)

[Captain Idaho]

I doubt there's many army builds of Primaris, without Guilliman, that are particularly competitive right now. That's not to say they can't do okay and perform reasonably at most levels.

 

Just too few numbers in a game with so many multi-wound weapons makes Primaris only armies struggle.

 

Adding a few Hellblasters into a standard list or a single unit of Intercessors might work well enough, especially if you have Terminators as they'll take the focus of multi-wound fire.

[Prot]

I doubt there's many army builds of Primaris, without Guilliman, that are particularly competitive right now. That's not to say they can't do okay and perform reasonably at most levels.

 

Just too few numbers in a game with so many multi-wound weapons makes Primaris only armies struggle.

 

Adding a few Hellblasters into a standard list or a single unit of Intercessors might work well enough, especially if you have Terminators as they'll take the focus of multi-wound fire.

 

I agree. On the surface the multiwound idea was a great way of saying... 'here's a new marine, and his biology has improved!' but on the table, as we see more and more multi damage stuff, it's just a waste. Literally the only advantage I can honestly say I get from my Primaris lists is it's VERY hard to break them moral wise... which isn't anything to write home about with ATSKNF.

 

Ironically the multi damage stuff is what kills Plague Marines too... FnP has very little chance against 2 damage + weapons, however that +1 T is something, but yea multi damage is a big deal this edition.

 

People will always cherry pick Hellblasters (unless they can't/won't babysit them). I don't blame them. Mine are focused so hard first thing every game.

 

Other than that the Raven Guard crowd love their bolt Aggressors. And the rest is for show I think.

 

When I've used Guilliman in completely competitive games.... when properly used I've had him turn completely mediocre junk (Primaris) into a machine. But when I go back to vanilla marines, it's a 'well oiled' machine. Take him out of either list and the direction of the armies changes immensely.

 

I don't feel the same about Magnus and Mortarion. *but ask me in a week if that Deep Strike Strat from Daemons is a legal option for the Primarchs... that will be meta changing. If Guilliman had 1-2 wounds more, that entire universe gets flipped on its head.

[Dracos]

Grrr.

 

Hesitating on the all Primaris army if it's so "vulnerable". Not that I don't like a good challenge, but if they aren't any tougher than Terminators I might have to try a Deathwing army. I've done Grey Knights (almost all Terminator) who were called uncompetitive and had a lot of success and fun. With my luck Primaris Terminators would be released six months after I was finished painting lol.

 

Query: Can a DIY army utilize a Primarch? If this is the Age of Monsters maybe I should wait and find one that fits my style. With my luck it'll be Bobby G :?

Edited January 4, 2018 by Inquisitor Dracos

[Schlitzaf]

Functionally yes. Assuming you don’t mind your DIY Chapter being (Primarch’s Chapter) for Keyword purposes. If you are an Ultra Successor Joe Marines sense you have no SC or Chapter specific Relics/Strategems/WT, just for mechanical purpose have your Keyword be “Ultramarine”.

 

And to stymie preemptive “But muh Successor” the whole point is so that you cannot have two special characters of different chapters but same chapter trait in the same army. Classic Example would be if you could, Flesh Tearers and Blood Angels could take two Chapter Masters. In Codex Marine, Lysander and Pedro Cantor.

 

It sounds inane, but well it’s a delibarete balance to stop more inane. An example where you have a Successor Chapter, and their interaction with just the Chapter Trait is a good thing, are Black Templars. Minotaurs could choose the BT Tactic (as it fits their playstyle/lore) but do not lose access to Librarians. Sense No Librarian is tied to Keyword Black Templar not to BT Chapter Tactic. What in that regard is gonna to be more important is how Dorn (and if we get him Sanganius), both of whom have Non-FW Successor chapters with rules.

[Captain Idaho]

Any Imperial army can take Guilliman in a Super Heavy detachment all of his own, but he won't be quite as useful to your models as Ultramarines.