Growing weary of the 8th edition lore

[M@verik115]

Look it is what it is. 
The general 40K storyline has never been that good. 
Certain BL authors gave us great stories and certain others should be purged from memory. 
Lets see how 41K turns out, but in all honesty you dont actually have to pay attention to the general story to enjoy the game. 
Even back in the day 40K was filled with stories where a handful of marines bring down an entire system, while in 30K marines die in droves. 
While the general story at this moment is pretty poor, there is definitely room for some BL authors to temper it into something great. 

[Gentlemanloser]

I made this point a while ago.

 

There's no tension.

 

Gathering Strom started building a setting/plot that had the potential to be a pivotal change.  Largest, most successful Chaos incursion into realspace ever!

 

Yet nothings changed, not even in the Dark Imperium.  There no loss, there's no tension.  Oh, some Marines were killed, that's ok we have Marine+ replacements to hand to make it all better!

 

Cadia has gone, the eye of terror opened unopposed.  That's ok! The Cadians just moved to another planet and are still Cadians.

 

I 'member the Deathwing novel.  Where the loss of your homeworld was the most disastrous thing that could happen to a chapter...

 

Gathering storm had such potential.  It's just not been realised.  Hopefully my sentence requires a 'yet'. ;)

[Ogun]

I think there is a definite danger of falling into Golden Age style thinking about the 40k background. There is a perceived lore apogee around 3rd-4th edition, and not without reason. We had the Index Astartes articles and some other excellent fluff pieces come out. But, these did not exist in the Codexes, they were White Dwarf articles. In fact the 3rd ed codexes had practically zero fluff in them at all. Compare them to the Warhammer Army Books of the same period, and they just make you sad, (I can still sit down and read the 5th ed Lizardmen book for pleasure). 

The lore has been of variable quality for a long time, we just tend to remember the good stuff. I would also say that GW have got better at bringing together and acknowledging FW and BL contributions to the lore in a way that they never used to (with the odd exceptions of course). 

 

 

The impact of the Primaris remain the main source of concern for me, and that boils down simply to uncertainty over how GW will handle their development. Primaris are fine as a lore concept, but only if we eventually get a flaw. A moment when a Chapter Master goes, 'stop making Primaris or our chapter is doomed!' The moment when the hope of salvation is snatched away. We are still way too early into their existence to expect that anytime soon, but it needs to happen. The advanced time line certainly shows no abandonment of grim dark; the situation for the Imperium is utterly dire, despite Guilliman and the Primaris, so it is not as if the writers have abandoned the concept. 

[D3L]

8th edition has lore?

 

I havent found any yet

[Ishagu]

As long as the setting is still a sandbox for us to play in we can't really complain.

 

Nothing sacred has been damaged by the new timeline. The war continues, millions die every day, heroes will not be remembered, etc etc

[Gentlemanloser]

Unless your Bobby G!  Who will be remembered for eternity!!

 

Our Liege and Saviour!

[Wargamer]

Except of course that millions of people are considered a lot. According to GW, the fall of Cadia had less men fighting there than the Somme.

[Marshal Rohr]

How do people travel in the Imperium Nihilus? Is the IN consumed in warp storms? Can they just not see the Astronomican and have to use old methods of blind jumps? Where is Abaddon? How the :cuss is Terra going to be attacked and then never mentioned? Why are Primaris so disorganized? How are we already a hundred years into M42 and all the old characters are still kicking around?

 

The NeuLore isn’t complete yet. Worrying about it will just get your blood pressure up. The studio is trash. The NeuLore is childish and unrealistic. It’s going to take years and years to make this turd shine. We’re never going to get another Armageddon or Battle for Macragge. The Plague Wars should be the perfect example of the garbage we can expect.

 

Luckily, as 40k lore is consumed in the fires of people who don’t care about their work and their final product we are getting the glorious return of Necromunda. Probably Battlefleet Gothic too. There will be brief gems of OldLore shining through that we can use to sustain us through this long winter of mediocrity and juvenile superhero stories. Emperor’s Spears, the next Abaddon book, the new GG novel.

 

But any serious 40k fan need to mentally prepare themselves for every single piece of lore coming from the studio to be trash meant to satiate the people who couldn’t care less about trying to convert a cool character or build their own sector. They just plug and play with their grey legions until the next esports game comes out.

[Kinstryfe]

Well, look at some of the new changes with a more cynical eye. A loyal Primarch, arguably the best bureaucrat in human history, is returned to try to save the Imperium. A technological and biological engineering breakthrough greater than anything in the previous 10,000 years is let loose, leading to new marines who are bigger, tougher, and stronger than any before. The Imperium poured untold resources into a 100+ year crusade to try to drive back their enemies. All of that basically brought the Imperium back to exactly where they were before Cadia fell. Other Primarchs or lore changes excepted, the Imperium has put all of their cards on the table, and have succeeded only in treading water. I think given another year or so a lot of the lore will be going in a much darker direction. This is really the first time GW has advanced the lore this significantly in quite a long time, if not ever. I still have faith that before it's over we'll see a huge downside in Primaris for the Imperium.

[Gentlemanloser]

Bobby G returned with handwaving Eldar Death Magic resurrection.

 

Why not resurrect the Emperor?

 

Why not spend those resources making existing Marines bigger stronger and tougher?

 

There was 100 year Crusade?  Time has no reason, what with the new lore on the Imperial calander being bupkis, implemented to keep the game setting forever in 40k while creating time space for new events.  Also the crusade did what?  It was more of a buddy movie road trip where Bobby G dropped off new Marine+ to everyone as a festive Santa.  That's not a 'Crusade'.  Where are the victories over Chaos?  The warbands destroyed or sent back to the Warp?  The Daemons banished?

 

Treading water?  The Imperium is bigger better and stronger than before.  The most invasion Chaos breach and the largest host of chaos ever to been seen in the Imperium.  And what have they achieved?  Nothing.  If this is the largest and more powerful invasion ever, and they do *nothing* of consequence, wow.  How bad are Chaos being portrayed as the settings ultimate bad guys.

 

They might kill someone important. Maybe.  Then Eldar death magic brings them back! Huzzah!

 

As for downsides, the current lore is they get the good of a Chapters gene individuality (such as the Red Thirst) but don't suffer form the dab (such as Black Rage).  So I doubt we'll be seeing any flaws in Cawls masterworks any time soon...

[Ishagu]

Remember Cawl literally learned from the Emperor himself. It's perfectly justified that the guy can create such wonders.

 

We don't have the full picture yet. We don't know where Abaddon is, we don't know what will happen next, and we don't have the full scope of the damage done in the Dark Imperium.

[Marshal Rohr]

Cawl is part of the problem with the NeuLore. He’s not a valuable addition.

[Ogun]

Bobby G returned with handwaving Eldar Death Magic resurrection.

 

Why not resurrect the Emperor?

 

Why not spend those resources making existing Marines bigger stronger and tougher?

 

There was 100 year Crusade?  Time has no reason, what with the new lore on the Imperial calander being bupkis, implemented to keep the game setting forever in 40k while creating time space for new events.  Also the crusade did what?  It was more of a buddy movie road trip where Bobby G dropped off new Marine+ to everyone as a festive Santa.  That's not a 'Crusade'.  Where are the victories over Chaos?  The warbands destroyed or sent back to the Warp?  The Daemons banished?

 

Treading water?  The Imperium is bigger better and stronger than before.  The most invasion Chaos breach and the largest host of chaos ever to been seen in the Imperium.  And what have they achieved?  Nothing.  If this is the largest and more powerful invasion ever, and they do *nothing* of consequence, wow.  How bad are Chaos being portrayed as the settings ultimate bad guys.

 

They might kill someone important. Maybe.  Then Eldar death magic brings them back! Huzzah!

 

As for downsides, the current lore is they get the good of a Chapters gene individuality (such as the Red Thirst) but don't suffer form the dab (such as Black Rage).  So I doubt we'll be seeing any flaws in Cawls masterworks any time soon...

 

The Imperium is split in two, vast swathes of territory are lost as are a number of chapters. The daemon Primarchs are intervening freely in real space in a way previously unthinkable. I don't think I would say that the Imperium is stronger than before.

[Sete]

Remember that was shoehorned recently in the lore. (Cawl bit)

 

Yeah Daemon Primarchs are doing their shenanigans and wherever they appear Guilly boy defeats them. Abbadon is on the sidelines now. Like every other Imperial hero, because Guilliman is saving the day left and right.

The appeal of 40k was the fact that the Imperium didn't have any demigods. Their god is half dead. His Primarchs traitors or missing.

It was a dark hopeless age.

 

 

Now it's just, Horus Heresy V.2 Lime light.

with bigger better marines, but it tastes the same!!!!

 

I already said this plenty of times. My last input on this convo.

[Leif Bearclaw]

With the Rise of Guilliman, Cawl and the Primaris, there seems to be an injection of hope into the setting. We’re not two minutes to midnight anymore, we’re having Sunday brunch with the whole day ahead of us. That feels completey jarring and contrary to the themes of the last 25 years of 40K history. Hope, for me, is the Death of the Grim-Dark.

 

Are we though? Where's the hope? Cadia still fell, and Chaos still tore reality a new one, representing a massive gain in the fortunes of Chaos (as in, isn't that pretty much Abby's bizarre 'Crimson Path' idea bearing fruit?), not to mention the realspace enclaves that seem to have cropped up for every Dramatis Personae. When Gulliman himself isn't involved, the formula seems to be 'Imperial forces attempt X, fight valiantly, but take huge losses and are forced to withdraw'. What are you seeing in the fluff that I'm missing?

 

This is what I'm finding fascinating in a 'watch the car crash' sort of way. You have people decrying 8th for being too hopeful and noblebright, that Chaos's largest victory in decades somehow doesn't 'count' because they haven't completely screwed the Imperium and killed the setting. Or there's 'this is good/bad' because the Imperium really is screwed, all Gulliman has managed is to paper over the cracks. Others are salivating at the idea of everything going even more to pot for the Imperium, with schisms, civil wars and Primaris failure, even though it seems at best all this Primaris stuff has reset the Imperium to a pre Gathering Storm state (and even then, not really). Others decry it for being more of the same, generic 'Imperium is screwed but look, shiny Space Marine' stuff we've been presented with for the last decade or so. Then there's 'everything is brilliant' (a group I'm increasingly convinced consists only of Ishagu ). It's like a Rorschach test. One 'story', at least half a dozen stances derived from the same info.

 

[Gentlemanloser]

Leif, how is it a victory for Chaos?

 

What have they actually achived?

 

Marine Chapters are fuller and stronger than before.  Loss of homeworlds matters not.  Chaos may have lit up some of the sky, but that hasn't stopped Bobby G travelling across it.  Smashing all opponents in his path.

 

Cawl makes a mockery of the Ad Mechs sacred STCs and just remakes as many guns and tanks as he wants.  Oh we've recoved and ancient STC lost to man! What a discovery!  Pttf.  Cawls already made a better version from scratch.  Void Dragon be damned!

 

Also who care if DPs pop up any time they want now.  So does Draigo. ;) And it seems that it wasn't a nihilistic fever dream at all.  He really was just cussing all over the Chaos Gods while in their realm.  DP pops up. Does nothing.  Draigo pops up, banishes him for a thousand years.

 

Win for Chaos?  When the Eldar have neutered Slaanesh, and can bring anyone back from the dead?

 

Hardly...

[Ishagu]

Guilliman is just one man, and he can't be everywhere at once. He has appeared where needed to bolster the existing iconic chapters. Did anyone actually think that the Blood Angels or Dark Angels will be destroyed? That was never on the cards.

 

Also his jaunts were summaries quickly but they took place over a full century. He's not just going to appear when trouble's happening.

 

 

In the coming months we'll have more story development, and Abaddon will likely make a grand return at some point.

 

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Guilliman is just one man, and he can't be everywhere at once. He has appeared where needed to bolster the existing iconic chapters. Did anyone actually think that the Blood Angels or Dark Angels will be destroyed? That was never on the cards.

 

Also his jaunts were summaries quickly but they took place over a full century. He's not just going to appear when trouble's happening.

 

 

In the coming months we'll have more story development, and Abaddon will likely make a grand return at some point.

 

You’ve got a real bad habit of speaking like you know what’s going on. You have no way of knowing what’s in the cards and need to stop pretending like you do.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Leif, how is it a victory for Chaos?

 

What have they actually achived?

Abby's stupid plan (I say stupid, because it was self contradictory, didn't really gel wit Abby's stated motivations, and could only succeed by authorial fiat). They've destroyed Cadia (then founding 'New Cadia, totally kosher guys' to keep them around for model sales is idiotic, I'll definitely grant that) and opened up a new Eye of Terror essentially running the width of the galaxy. While it hasn't reached Terra yet, that was pretty much the stated goal of the 13th Crusade, as of 6th edition.

 

Then there's stuff like the Stygius Sector and Scourge Stars, both Chaos conquered enclaves with no sign that the Imperium will be able to take them back. And I'd expect the number of such enclaves to only increase, as WE and EC at least will likely get one with their dexes and releases.

 

 

Marine Chapters are fuller and stronger than before.  Loss of homeworlds matters not.  Chaos may have lit up some of the sky, but that hasn't stopped Bobby G travelling across it.  Smashing all opponents in his path.

But what happens when Gulliman isn't in the script? Generally 'bad things for the Imperials' seems to be the norm.

 

Is 8th edition fluff bad? Oh yes, I would certainly agree there. I'd have been much happier if they hadn't bothered trying (Fantasy End Times ended any desire I had for 40k fluff progression, because I lost faith in the ability of GW to pull it off, I think I was justified). But the fact remains that I can't recall a set of fluff that had this many divergent opinions, varying from totally different reasons why its bad to 'bits of it aren't' to 'it's not actually bad', from the same text sources.

[Ishagu]

Lol I don't know what's in store for the plot, but you can bet that Abaddon will indeed make a return and that Chaos will receive more focus in the coming year.

[Gentlemanloser]

But Bobby G just coincided will all the bad things happening at different times.

 

Blood Angels took a hit, Bobby G got there!  Dangels took a hit, Boggy G got there again!

 

With Bobby G around there is no threat from Chaos.  With Cawl around the history of the Mechanics is just 'lolwut'.  Ad Mech doesn't innovate.  You don't mess with sacred STCs.  Who needs STCs any more with Cawl around?

 

Why are Marines using old tech at all?  Why not kit all Marines with Cawls new and better Bolters and Plasma guns?  Not enough resources?  Hardly. There's enough resources to make an unlimited supply of new Marines, with an unlimited supply of new Bolters...

 

 

Don't get me wrong.  I *loved* when Gathering Storms was announced!  Timeline moving on, plot development! AMAZING.

 

It's just that well, nothing did happen.  Nothing changed.  A few planets taken by Chaos?  I'm sure there's been a few planets taken by Ork and Nids as well.  It's still inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

 

Now IF Chaos had wiped out all the chapters based in the Dark Half, had claimed that territory as their own.  Were striking into the Light half of the Galaxy and threatening the downfall of the Imperium.  What a tense setting to play our wargames in.  Sadly, Chaos seem to be no threat at all.  Eldar have all but conquered their arch enemy.  And the Marine Chapters are still operating in the Dark half.  Getting reinforcements from Terra as well.

 

But there's a pretty red scar in the night sky.

[Marshal Rohr]

Uh, literally everything changed with Gathering storm. It’s not even the same setting anymore. OldMarines will be gone in a few editions. Black Legion is gone because it’s untrademarkable. Xenos are friends now. It’s edgy marvel in space now.

[Knight of the Raven]

I don't know if Guilliman and Cawl are 'Mary Sues' - the term has been bandied abiout so much to lose any and all actual meaning - but between the demi-god from the past who singlehandedly undoes millenia of bureaucratic inertia and keeps saving the galaxy when everyone dies where he's not involved and the archmagos who knew the Emperor personally, got a hand on his genetic templates and improved them and then made thousands of soldiers that are Just Better^TM... I'm pretty sure whoever came up with that would have been laughed out of the room (and possibly shot) for making such terrible OCs if they hadn't been Games Workshop themselves.

 

Not that the canon characters are much better, mind. We have Asdrubael "got a contingency plan for EVERYTHING that will both weaken my enemies and strengthen my position" Vect after all, who just waltzs through life without ever being threatened by anyone or anything.

 

I'm seeing more and more similarities between Warhammer 40,000 and my other fandom. It's hilarious, in that "HAHAHAHAHA sobsobsob" kind of way.

[Corswain]

 

With the Rise of Guilliman, Cawl and the Primaris, there seems to be an injection of hope into the setting. We’re not two minutes to midnight anymore, we’re having Sunday brunch with the whole day ahead of us. That feels completey jarring and contrary to the themes of the last 25 years of 40K history. Hope, for me, is the Death of the Grim-Dark.

 

Are we though? Where's the hope? Cadia still fell, and Chaos still tore reality a new one, representing a massive gain in the fortunes of Chaos (as in, isn't that pretty much Abby's bizarre 'Crimson Path' idea bearing fruit?), not to mention the realspace enclaves that seem to have cropped up for every Dramatis Personae. When Gulliman himself isn't involved, the formula seems to be 'Imperial forces attempt X, fight valiantly, but take huge losses and are forced to withdraw'. What are you seeing in the fluff that I'm missing?

Guilliman is the problem here, he is infallable at the moment. Every time a Chapter is on the brink, Guilliman and the Primaris are here to the rescue. There is no risk. Apocalyptic invasion, heavy losses? No problem, here’s Guilliman. He’ll beat the unbeatable horde and replace those losses with some dudes that have been in the fridge for a few thousand years. The split through the Imperium only works if it’s suicidally unlikely to be crossed and that doesn’t seem to apply to Guilliman.

I’ve always felt that 40K is a setting where you believe it could actually end and the Imperium will fall and that’s gone now.

 

Gentlemanloser sums it up pretty well a few posts above.

 

They’ve been doing the Imperial force suffers heavy losses and retreats thing now for a while and I love it. But it has no consequence anymore.

 

You do bring up some interesting questions about Abaddon though. What’s he doing now?

Maybe once we see some development around him, things will get better (worse?). We’ll see.

 

Edit : It’s important to note that I don’t find recent developments to be a hobby-breaker. I’ll just set my games back in the pre-Guilliman era. There’s a few thousand years to play around with there

[Ishagu]

That is nothing new; Let's not forget Aba - "it's all a part of the plan" - ddon.

Every "Failed" great Crusade was actually a success, and he's so mentally strong that thousands of years in the warp haven't corrupted his soul and he's still a free agent.

 

Heck, even Guilliman hasn't managed these feats :-P

 

40k has always been filled with larger than life super heroes/villains. Before Guilliman, it was Calgar who single-handedly beat the Eldar Avatar in combat and personally killed thousands of Orks in a single battle. Have we forgotten Draigo waking around the warp, burning down Nurgle's garden? The examples go on.