Growing weary of the 8th edition lore

[Leif Bearclaw]

What as destroyed in that story?

 

I think RaptorR was referring to the fluff snippet that described how the Ad Mech lost the ability to manufacture Phosphex (apart from that one relic weapon). It's goes something like 'Magos sees Phosphex work, comes down with an attack of "this is too inhuman, even for the Imperium" and wrecks the cogitator/server farm/library/whatever that contains the formula and directions for manufacture, thus ending the Imperium's ability to use Phosphex because the Ad Mech are too stupid to back up their data'.

 

That said, I would have to fundamentally disagree with Raptor here about that being 'good' fluff. Ad Mech losing access to Phosphex sometime between 30k and 40k? Yup, no problem there. Doing it because one Magos decides it's inhumane and the entire Ad Mech didn't back up the data? That's a farce (and not the funny kind).

 

[Wargamer]

Thing is, we know that information is lost that way. For centuries the Vanquisher was lost because the ONLY Forgeworld that made them was conquered by Orks.

 

The issue isn't that there were no backups, but that an AdMech destroying an STC is like a Christian burning the One True Cross.

[Bulwyf]

We need phosphex back. My favorite part of HH is being able to use phosphex, not kidding. Just give me phosphex flamethrowers in 40k and I'm good.

 

To the rest of the points in this topic, I agree that I am not a fan of the lore in 8th. The whole "Primaris and Papa Smurf show up to save everyone...again...and again!!" is cringe worthy. I fear that my beloved Space Wolves will suffer from this but with Russ coming back to save the day. At least that's been hinted at in the lore for as far back as I can remember...

[Marshal Rohr]

I wasn't playing the game in 5th or 6th edition, where some of the really big and cool things that people talk fondly about occurred. I can't speak to it, so I won't try. I do know several people who enjoyed those things. But that was years ago. A different time. A different king. It's very possible those who went through those releases may have to come to grips with a concept that eludes many of the older Star Wars fans: You aren't the target audience anymore. What worked then may not work now. Be kind to your new generation of players.

 

The people in the hobby and the attitudes they exhibit - such as how they treat their fellow hobbyists in threads like these - would be what drives me away from the hobby before any change in lore. "Lore first" means nothing in a game that take more than one person to play when the treatment by those who disagree is... Well.

 

40k is the people you play it with, not the models on the table.

40k is not just the models on the table, muchacho. Those Terminators on the table? They’re on borrowed time. The all Terminator Deathwing armies? Sorry, but marines wear Gravis armor now. Your tactical squads? Shove em. You entire don’t get what people are upset about if you think it’s just some bad writing people are upset about. This isn’t replacing the Empire with the first order or making the main characters of the new trilogy a black dude and a girl. This isn’t about too many corny joke in the Last Jedi. It’s that in next few cycles of codexes whole armies will be phased out in favor of these copyrightable true-scale models. Thing people have loved forever like terminators are gone and replaces with the abortions of Gravis armor kits.

[Mileposter]

40k is not just the models on the table, muchacho. Those Terminators on the table? They’re on borrowed time. The all Terminator Deathwing armies? Sorry, but marines wear Gravis armor now. Your tactical squads? Shove em. You entire don’t get what people are upset about if you think it’s just some bad writing people are upset about. This isn’t replacing the Empire with the first order or making the main characters of the new trilogy a black dude and a girl. This isn’t about too many corny joke in the Last Jedi. It’s that in next few cycles of codexes whole armies will be phased out in favor of these copyrightable true-scale models. Thing people have loved forever like terminators are gone and replaces with the abortions of Gravis armor kits.

Gonna toss a little of your own words your way.

 

You’ve got a real bad habit of speaking like you know what’s going on. You have no way of knowing what’s in the cards and need to stop pretending like you do.

[Scribe]

Lol if you don't think normal marines will be gone eventually...I've got some bitcoin to sell you at 50% of cost.

 

The important thing to remember is that if you want to hold on to those normal marines? Do it.

 

They are now a squad/company/chapter, unable to sustain losses, unable to link up with supply chains, and looking down the barrel of inevitable demise.

 

What's more 40k than that?

[Marshal Rohr]

 

40k is not just the models on the table, muchacho. Those Terminators on the table? They’re on borrowed time. The all Terminator Deathwing armies? Sorry, but marines wear Gravis armor now. Your tactical squads? Shove em. You entire don’t get what people are upset about if you think it’s just some bad writing people are upset about. This isn’t replacing the Empire with the first order or making the main characters of the new trilogy a black dude and a girl. This isn’t about too many corny joke in the Last Jedi. It’s that in next few cycles of codexes whole armies will be phased out in favor of these copyrightable true-scale models. Thing people have loved forever like terminators are gone and replaces with the abortions of Gravis armor kits.

Gonna toss a little of your own words your way.

 

You’ve got a real bad habit of speaking like you know what’s going on. You have no way of knowing what’s in the cards and need to stop pretending like you do.

Wow, buddy. Was I the one who predicted a bunch of releases that never materialized? No. I don’t go around making up rumors to seem important.

[Guest]

I wasn't going to comment anymore as I feel it went off track and the =I= is watching, but I feel this must be said for my behalf and the few others that play like me.

 

The lore and fluff is heavily play into how and why I play. I play no tourney or league, so I play for fun and my benefit. I have no long time FLGS, I have to move every 2-3 years. So this leaves me with 2 things that drives me to continue in this hobby. The first as I said is the lore and how different each chapter is. Even in the same family there is Radical differences. Cadians and Tallarns, Blood Angels and Flesh Tearers, Imperial Fists and Black Templars. The second is childhood memories of seeing the models especially the Terminators. Those memories I can still hold pretty vivid of pewter models.

 

Fast forward and I have money and a little time to spend and I start up the hobby. I am now actually participating in what I remember, I am playing my army based on the lore I love. I get me first Terminator model, my first dreadnought those iconic boxy units. New lore comes and instead of complimenting the old lore, it makes it obsolete. My beloved Terminators, are now being replaced by gravis. The lore I loved of reading about this irradiated planet Baal and people surviving and some even becoming Space Marines, now being turned into a green planet.

 

Changing the lore and moving forwarded was needed, but instead of complimenting it they replace it. My child will not share that bond of loving Terminators as my father and I did. If she joins 40k it will be her loving Gravis while I will sit and remember Terminators. This makes me depressed, and I imagine older hobbiest feel this ping of sadness too knowing that going forward that their past love and memories and being bulldozed over.

[Aarik]

I think my problems with the new background material stemmed first from the comic book quality of the Gathering Storm writing.  I don't mind the storyline advancing a bit, and I think the Great Rift/Imperium Nihilus is an interesting development--at worst I'm agnostic on it.  But the execution of it left a lot to be desired, especially compared with the Horus Heresy material that Forge World has been putting out.  

 

But after that, it's primarily the Primaris marines that I have a problem with.  I can live with Guilliman being back.  His return shakes up the stagnant Imperial hierarchy and sets up the possibility of interesting infighting, as well as exploring his perspective on returning to a very different Imperium than the one he left.  But Cawl coming out of the woodwork with the heretofore never mentioned Marines+1 strains credulity to the breaking point and is too obvious of a deus ex machina.  Shoehorning these new marines into the existing chapters strains the existing lore in unneeded ways. 

 

I also dislike the style of the new models, which I think is the other half of why I dislike the direction of 8th edition.  I think the basic Intercessor sculpt is largely fine, and I like the Mark X armor (but what happened to Mark IX???) for the most part.  But the models suffer from a lack of diversity.  They are all identical.  One thing I really enjoyed about Space Marines is the wide variety of armor marks and pieces that could be combined to make unique and cool looking models.  That has disappeared with the new identical sculpts.  And while much digital ink has been spilled complaining about the new Gravis-armored units and Interceptors sculpts, I think my fundamental problem with them is that they go away from the gothic "future-knight" aesthetic that Space Marines have had recently (though not necessarily have always had).  They look like something out of a different game system now, especially compared to the gorgeous Horus Heresy models that have come out.  I would have been much happier if GW had redone the existing Space Marine units in the new true scale, even incorporating this new Mark X armor, while also making true scale Mark VI-VIII too.  (Though I do recognize the difficulties that having done so would have caused, e.g. many people upset that their existing Space Marine models were invalidated, incompatiability with the bulk of the Horus Heresy stuff that has just been released.  I think perhaps GW's biggest mistake was redoing the sculpts at all/making them so much bigger, rather than a subtler reworking of them to make them a little taller and give better leg poses for example).

 

To tie my thoughts on the models back to the thread topic of background, I think the new more "modern/futuristic" looking sculpts are emblematic of the change in tone of the new Primaris marines that many (including myself) dislike.

[Robbienw]

They are now a squad/company/chapter, unable to sustain losses, unable to link up with supply chains, and looking down the barrel of inevitable demise.

 

What's more 40k than that?

They really wouldn't, they,d just continue to make space Marines like have done for the past several thousand years...

[Wargamer]

Lol if you don't think normal marines will be gone eventually...I've got some bitcoin to sell you at 50% of cost.

 

The important thing to remember is that if you want to hold on to those normal marines? Do it.

 

They are now a squad/company/chapter, unable to sustain losses, unable to link up with supply chains, and looking down the barrel of inevitable demise.

 

What's more 40k than that?

On the 40K scale, that's a 4/10.

 

But Guilliman coming back with his brilliant, visionary ideas, his progressive reforms, his Marines+1 and his desire to save the Imperium only to doom all of mankind would be a solid 10.

[Bulwyf]

Just remember, with the new lore in place, new spaces marines will never be the "older, non Super Go Go Gadget" variety. All new space marines will be Primaris. This gives GW (as if they needed it) the justification to  simply phase out the older models and force all new SM models regardless of army to be Primaris.

[Master Commander Ajax]

My dream? The GW studio of the late 90's with the production capabilities of the current GW.

[Scribe]

 

Lol if you don't think normal marines will be gone eventually...I've got some bitcoin to sell you at 50% of cost.

 

The important thing to remember is that if you want to hold on to those normal marines? Do it.

 

They are now a squad/company/chapter, unable to sustain losses, unable to link up with supply chains, and looking down the barrel of inevitable demise.

 

What's more 40k than that?

On the 40K scale, that's a 4/10.

 

But Guilliman coming back with his brilliant, visionary ideas, his progressive reforms, his Marines+1 and his desire to save the Imperium only to doom all of mankind would be a solid 10.

 

 

Sure, I'm just saying there is justification to play normal marines, even within the 'all primaris, all the time' poorly wrought narrative of a meta plot.

[Marshal Rohr]

I reread Codex Chaos from 2nd Edition a few days ago and even though it’s written at a high school level everything still seemed more out together. It’s the self referential nature of the new studio. Hero’s don’t fight enemies anymore, they fight specific characters and model kits. It feels like they should be hyperlinked for a quick purchase.

[Robbienw]

Just remember, with the new lore in place, new spaces marines will never be the "older, non Super Go Go Gadget" variety. All new space marines will be Primaris. This gives GW (as if they needed it) the justification to simply phase out the older models and force all new SM models regardless of army to be Primaris.

Except that's not the case, and the new lore does not have the Primaris replacing normal space marines. Take for example the Blood Angels who are currently producing both types concurrently....

[Knight of the Raven]

It feels like they should be hyperlinked for a quick purchase.

That's what Warhammer Community is for.

 

You gave me a flashforward to the future though, where even paper books have hyperlinks to every thing that has as much as one thing to purchase about them.

 

In the grim darkness of the near future, there are only ads.

[Wargamer]

 

Just remember, with the new lore in place, new spaces marines will never be the "older, non Super Go Go Gadget" variety. All new space marines will be Primaris. This gives GW (as if they needed it) the justification to simply phase out the older models and force all new SM models regardless of army to be Primaris.

Except that's not the case, and the new lore does not have the Primaris replacing normal space marines. Take for example the Blood Angels who are currently producing both types concurrently....

 

You can't go from giving people quality products to shovelling faeces down their throats - you have to do it by a series of tiny backslides of quality. Space Marines will stick around, but will gradually be less important, less referenced and less welcomed.

[Volt]

 

What as destroyed in that story?

 

I think RaptorR was referring to the fluff snippet that described how the Ad Mech lost the ability to manufacture Phosphex (apart from that one relic weapon). It's goes something like 'Magos sees Phosphex work, comes down with an attack of "this is too inhuman, even for the Imperium" and wrecks the cogitator/server farm/library/whatever that contains the formula and directions for manufacture, thus ending the Imperium's ability to use Phosphex because the Ad Mech are too stupid to back up their data'.

 

That said, I would have to fundamentally disagree with Raptor here about that being 'good' fluff. Ad Mech losing access to Phosphex sometime between 30k and 40k? Yup, no problem there. Doing it because one Magos decides it's inhumane and the entire Ad Mech didn't back up the data? That's a farce (and not the funny kind).

 

 

Phosphex was destroyed by the Admech because it was so powerful it horrified even the admech. Phosphex was literally unqunechable fire that would eventually consume entire planets, light literally any matter on fire, and could only maybe be snuffed out by a vacuum. And even that might not work, and simply drifting your ship near a phosphex torched wreck could see your entire ship consumed by the flames. 

[Scribe]

 

 

What as destroyed in that story?

 

I think RaptorR was referring to the fluff snippet that described how the Ad Mech lost the ability to manufacture Phosphex (apart from that one relic weapon). It's goes something like 'Magos sees Phosphex work, comes down with an attack of "this is too inhuman, even for the Imperium" and wrecks the cogitator/server farm/library/whatever that contains the formula and directions for manufacture, thus ending the Imperium's ability to use Phosphex because the Ad Mech are too stupid to back up their data'.

 

That said, I would have to fundamentally disagree with Raptor here about that being 'good' fluff. Ad Mech losing access to Phosphex sometime between 30k and 40k? Yup, no problem there. Doing it because one Magos decides it's inhumane and the entire Ad Mech didn't back up the data? That's a farce (and not the funny kind).

 

 

Phosphex was destroyed by the Admech because it was so powerful it horrified even the admech. Phosphex was literally unqunechable fire that would eventually consume entire planets, light literally any matter on fire, and could only maybe be snuffed out by a vacuum. And even that might not work, and simply drifting your ship near a phosphex torched wreck could see your entire ship consumed by the flames. 

 

 

Thats pretty Metal.

[Ishagu]

This hobby is a large investment of time, money and effort.

 

If people dislike the direction so much, why do they suffer through it? It's like those mmo addicts who hate everything about the game they play yet remain online just to fill their gaming group with negative feelings.

Also, I don't think people should be throwing quite as many daggers my way. I'm not Matt Ward in disguise (I'm much better looking) lol

 

What we know, categorically, is that everything GW is doing right now is bringing in more sales and fresh players so it's clearly the correct course of action.

 

You guys wanna know a secret? I thought Gathering Storm was utterly unsatisfying despite RG's resurrection.

You wanna know something else? I was outraged when Primaris Marines were unveiled. I had literally just finished re-painting a NEW 10k point ultramarine army after selling off my old one due to no longer being satisfied with my older painting style and technique.

 

I had the choice to look at everything negatively. I could have complained over and over, been angry at the story, etc

 

The truth is, after looking at the big picture, 90% of the things we love about 40k are the same.

-Same factions

-Same characters

-Same struggles etc

The big change is some lovely new marine kits that are quite frankly, some of the nicest models I've had the pleasure to paint. I made my choice - I now have 3k points of Primaris and I love playing them. The execution was wrong but these guys play like I've always wanted marines to. If I chose not to accept them with open arms I knew it would poison the hobby experience for me...

The painting, collecting and social aspects of the hobby have all been improved. The truth is, I'm happier than I have been in a long time with GW.

[BadSanta]

This hobby is a large investment of time, money and effort.

 

If people dislike the direction so much, why do they suffer through it? It's like those mmo addicts who hate everything about the game they play yet remain online just to fill their gaming group with negative feelings.

 

What we know, categorically, is that everything GW is doing right now is bringing in more sales and fresh players so it's clearly the correct course of action.

 

You guys wanna know a secret? I thought Gathering Storm was utterly unsatisfying despite RG's resurrection.

You wanna know something else? I was outraged when Primaris Marines were unveiled. I had literally just finished re-painting a NEW 10k point ultramarine army after selling off my old one due to no longer being satisfied with my older painting style and technique.

 

I had the choice to look at everything negatively. I could have complained over and over, been angry at the story, etc

 

The truth is, after looking at the big picture, 90% of the things we love about 40k are the same.

-Same factions

-Same characters

-Same struggles etc

The big change is some lovely new marine kits that quite frankly are some of the nicest models I've had the pleasure to paint. I made my choice - I now have 3k points of Primaris and I love playing them. The execution was wrong but these guys play like I've always wanted marines to.

The painting, collecting and social aspects of the hobby have all been improved. The truth is, I'm happier than I have been in a long time with GW.

 

The more I read you, the more I feel you are working at GW or in The Studio.

 

I can't to explain to myself why you are always GW correct and polite, always happy whatever going on around other than you are oblidged to act this way.

[Ishagu]

Lol I certainly don't. Some of the mods can tell you that I've had a few warnings in the past over my behaviour on the forum.

I'm just feeling positive about life. Even The Last Jedi didn't quite ruin my December (it did make me really angry though) lol

[RapatoR]

 

 

What as destroyed in that story?

 

I think RaptorR was referring to the fluff snippet that described how the Ad Mech lost the ability to manufacture Phosphex (apart from that one relic weapon). It's goes something like 'Magos sees Phosphex work, comes down with an attack of "this is too inhuman, even for the Imperium" and wrecks the cogitator/server farm/library/whatever that contains the formula and directions for manufacture, thus ending the Imperium's ability to use Phosphex because the Ad Mech are too stupid to back up their data'.

 

That said, I would have to fundamentally disagree with Raptor here about that being 'good' fluff. Ad Mech losing access to Phosphex sometime between 30k and 40k? Yup, no problem there. Doing it because one Magos decides it's inhumane and the entire Ad Mech didn't back up the data? That's a farce (and not the funny kind).

Phosphex was destroyed by the Admech because it was so powerful it horrified even the admech. Phosphex was literally unqunechable fire that would eventually consume entire planets, light literally any matter on fire, and could only maybe be snuffed out by a vacuum. And even that might not work, and simply drifting your ship near a phosphex torched wreck could see your entire ship consumed by the flames.

If I could like this post twice, I would. And don't forget the guy in mention gets executed... by phosphex weapon. I mean, the story is short, but so deep. When I read it, I couldn't help but start thinking, how the phosphex was seen as a horrible, extreme circumstance weapon that even the DG were reluctant to use, and what was the Emperors stance on such a weapons and how it contrasts with the attitude of current Admech towards the weapon.

[totgeboren]

I think Aarik nailed it. The main issue with the new lore is that it doesn't add to the old background like GW did previously, it overwrites it. Cawl is the AdMec, except without the glaring weaknesses. Primaris are simply marines but cheaper and better in every way, without the genetic flaws of the normal sm. RG is essentially the Emperor, except without the hubris. They don't add anything to the 40k universe the way they are implemented, they only make it less interesting.

 

To show what I mean. When GW released the latest box of CSM Raptors, they also released Warp Talons. When they did this, no one said: "Maaan, now I will need to replace all my Raptors with Warp Talons!". Raptors were still as valid an option as ever, both lore-wise and rule-wise, there was nothing to indicate that all Raptors will become Warp Talons in the future.

When they released plastic Thousand Sons with their the option of warpflamer guns, no one said: "Maaan, now I need to replace all my TS dudes with the new flamer gun models!". Giving your TS dudes their bolters was still a perfectly valid option both lore-wise and rule-wise. There was nothing that seemed to indicate that all TS will have flamers in the future.
 

When the new Primaris were released, lots of people said: "Maaan, now I need to replace all my marines with the new primaris models!". Going for the normal marine options seem like a dead end, and it also gimps yourself somewhat in not including any Primaris. The lore states that all marines will be primaris in the future.

 

The change in how new stuff in implemented is huge.

 

When it comes to rules, back when the 6ed CSM codex hit, I was rather happy that my old 2ed CSM Predator got pretty ok rules. It made me want to play with that model, and made me reconnect a bit with the inspiration I felt for my army back in 2ed when I started collecting it. That inspiration also made me buy some new units.

 

The new books will instead make my old units obsolete, if they will even have rules (in the next codex sure, but the one after that?).

 

I can't remember the edition, but when MTG released new decks that won over the old decks every time, I stopped playing MTG. It seem like GW might be aiming for the same for SM, and likely for CSM in the future too. If they do that, then I'm out, since that is how I have reacted with every game that does that.