Growing weary of the 8th edition lore

[Scribe]

Honestly, of all the changes, the Ynnari seem to fly most in the face of established fluff. I am not well enough versed in the Craftworld/Exodites to say, but for the DE...its an abomination of the lore.

[E_50_Panzer]

 

 

...Why are old marines being phased out, but Eldar players aren't freaking out that their 3 factions are going to be phased out by a unified Ynnari? ...

 

What makes you think that we don't fear the deletion of our factions for a Ynnari only faction? As soon as the Gathering Storm introduced them in 7th edition I assumed that the Dark Eldar's days were numbered. While it appears that they are allowing me to keep my Dark Eldar for 8th I'm expecting the lore to delete them in the coming years. When that day comes my collecting of Eldar comes to an end as well. And no, a Ynnari model with spikes is not a Dark Eldar as they are a completely different culture, those pathetic fools who cling to this new god are no longer Dark Eldar.

 

Lelith and a bunch of wych cults already became ynnari, I hope it doesn't go any farther than that.

[Master Commander Ajax]

Yup, though the treatment is prohibitively expensive for most and whilst many mortal Characters seem important to us they are far below the notice of the higher Imperium in the setting.

 

Then there's also the fact that the Warp distorts time. It's not a perfect answer, but again, it's hardly without precedent. You've also got the fact of the uproar that would be caused if GW came out and said "OK, 8th Edition is here. The following special characters are now dead, and can no longer be used...

 

I think far from perfect is an understatement. And yes there would be an uproar. I'm glad we broadly agree on this point.

 

 

It was said at one point that they could be upgraded. I don't think there is any deliberate mystery about it, I think that GW doesn't have an answer yet.

 

Did they though? Where? Rumours at one point said that, I don't recall anything stated by GW that they could be upgraded.

 

Pete Foley stated that 'normal' Space Marines can be upgraded to Primaris Marines during the second part of the Warhammer 40000 Q&A on the Warhammer twitch feed shortly after the game was launched. Pete Foley was the studio manager in charge of the new edition of Warhammer 40000.

 

 

Warp travel is almost impossibly dangerous without the light of the Astronomican, it effectively sets the borders of the Imperium. Even 'small' jumps are incredibly risky (distance and time are subjective in the warp). With the growing power of Chaos, it would seem that travel would be more perilous than ever.

 

Again, the human colonization of the galaxy occurred without the Astronomican, as did the creation of the Navigator gene. Humanity existed as a functional empire without the Astronomican. Chaos and the Orks don't use the Astronomican either. It's an incredibly helpful tool, but it's far from necessary. What it allows is longer guided jumps, as it provides a point of reference. Shorter jumps are still entirely possible without much change in safety, it just takes longer. Hell, it's possible to make incredibly shallow warp jumps without even having a Navigator capable of witnessing the presence or lack of the Astronomican, it just takes even longer, due to the even shorter 'hops', like the Tau do.

Warp travel is slowed, and would be more dangerous in the Imperium Nihilus, but it's most certainly not stopped entirely.

 

Human colonisation of the galaxy did occur without the Astronomican. It also ended when the warp became turbulent and numerous severe warp storms appeared throughout the galaxy making travel all but impossible. The exact degree as to how safe and/or possible Warp travel is without the Astronomican is up for debate but considering the difficulties experienced before the events of Gathering Storm, I'm inclined to lean pretty hard towards nigh impossible. 

 

 

I guess whether you think these things are important or not comes down to personal interpretation. I, however, do not believe that GW had a plan for any of these changes beyond "We/Black Libary will flesh it out later". 

 

You said there's no "good explanation" for these three questions. One is arguable, one you're basing off unconfirmed rumours, and the last has existing explanations in the background that you're choosing to ignore because it's not explicitly spelled out.

 

Well, I think you'll see from the above that's not the case. My original point was that I did not think that GW had fully considered the ramifications of the lore changes they had made and what you've said so far has done little to dissuade me from this.

 

Anyway, I don't see this going anywhere constructive so I think I'm just going to vacate this thread. Good hunting.

[DuskRaider]

 

 

 

GW have already said they will continue to manufacture existing Space Marine kits. That beinf said, I highly doubt they'll come out with new ones. I expect nothing but Primaris from here on out.

In that vein, can I ask what new kits they might come up with that would fit with anything people think for Marines?

Well...*clears throat*...um...they could you know....

 

Update the ranges that have languished for decades, suffering in the wilderness, while Marine after Marine, after LOYALIST MARINE, kit was released.

Quite honestly, I only care about Chaos. Maybe Orks. Literally every single other army could rot and I'd be okay with it... as would Nurgle. Very fitting.

[Scribe]

 

 

 

...Why are old marines being phased out, but Eldar players aren't freaking out that their 3 factions are going to be phased out by a unified Ynnari? ...

 

What makes you think that we don't fear the deletion of our factions for a Ynnari only faction? As soon as the Gathering Storm introduced them in 7th edition I assumed that the Dark Eldar's days were numbered. While it appears that they are allowing me to keep my Dark Eldar for 8th I'm expecting the lore to delete them in the coming years. When that day comes my collecting of Eldar comes to an end as well. And no, a Ynnari model with spikes is not a Dark Eldar as they are a completely different culture, those pathetic fools who cling to this new god are no longer Dark Eldar.

 

Lelith and a bunch of wych cults already became ynnari, I hope it doesn't go any farther than that.

 

 

WHAT?!

[Lord_Caerolion]

Basically, a bunch of Cults and Kabals have thrown in with the Ynnari, although the Covens have stayed true. They have hinted that the Dark Eldar converts may not be entirely altruistic about their faith, rather seeing it as another tool for personal gain. Sadly, the Gathering Storm books are written so concisely, unlike the massive End Times books, that we don't really get clear ideas of the motivations of many characters, or good portrayals of many events.

[Bryan Blaire]

 

 

 

GW have already said they will continue to manufacture existing Space Marine kits. That beinf said, I highly doubt they'll come out with new ones. I expect nothing but Primaris from here on out.

In that vein, can I ask what new kits they might come up with that would fit with anything people think for Marines?

Well...*clears throat*...um...they could you know....

Update the ranges that have languished for decades, suffering in the wilderness, while Marine after Marine, after LOYALIST MARINE, kit was released.

Quite honestly, I only care about Chaos. Maybe Orks. Literally every single other army could rot and I'd be okay with it... as would Nurgle. Very fitting.

And yet none of those actually answer my question. The fact that they don't probably means something - the loyalist Marine ranges were about as updated as they could ever get. They'd have to just make things up (like Centurions), which has been an anathema to many players anyway, similar to the Primaris. 30K units hardly qualify for anything, as we are discussing 8th Edition 40K, not 30K - and seriously, if people are lamenting the Horus Heresy Redux of Dark Imperium staring Robby G, then trying to make an argument about new units using the Heresy stuff as an example is just fueling that...

 

I don't disagree that other things could and should have been made, but the question was specifically about Marine (and in context, specifically Loyalist, since Chaos Marines have received updates very recently) kits - they are still GW's primary money maker, and they need to keep churning out new kits to keep all the Marine players buying.

[E_50_Panzer]

 

 

 

 

...Why are old marines being phased out, but Eldar players aren't freaking out that their 3 factions are going to be phased out by a unified Ynnari? ...

 

What makes you think that we don't fear the deletion of our factions for a Ynnari only faction? As soon as the Gathering Storm introduced them in 7th edition I assumed that the Dark Eldar's days were numbered. While it appears that they are allowing me to keep my Dark Eldar for 8th I'm expecting the lore to delete them in the coming years. When that day comes my collecting of Eldar comes to an end as well. And no, a Ynnari model with spikes is not a Dark Eldar as they are a completely different culture, those pathetic fools who cling to this new god are no longer Dark Eldar.

 

Lelith and a bunch of wych cults already became ynnari, I hope it doesn't go any farther than that.

 

 

WHAT?!

 

 

8th Ed rulebook, Ynnari section, sidebox. Lelith is now a good girl. RIP Waifu  

[Lord_Caerolion]

Interestingly, though, Lelith doesn't automatically have the Ynnari keyword, it's only an option. Hopefully this is setting the scene for the Dark Eldar to turn on the Ynnari at the first sign of a setback.

[Scribe]

 

 

 

 

 

...Why are old marines being phased out, but Eldar players aren't freaking out that their 3 factions are going to be phased out by a unified Ynnari? ...

 

What makes you think that we don't fear the deletion of our factions for a Ynnari only faction? As soon as the Gathering Storm introduced them in 7th edition I assumed that the Dark Eldar's days were numbered. While it appears that they are allowing me to keep my Dark Eldar for 8th I'm expecting the lore to delete them in the coming years. When that day comes my collecting of Eldar comes to an end as well. And no, a Ynnari model with spikes is not a Dark Eldar as they are a completely different culture, those pathetic fools who cling to this new god are no longer Dark Eldar.

 

Lelith and a bunch of wych cults already became ynnari, I hope it doesn't go any farther than that.

 

 

WHAT?!

 

 

8th Ed rulebook, Ynnari section, sidebox. Lelith is now a good girl. RIP Waifu 

 

 

Thats revolting. I'm sorry. I had actually avoided even looking into the new Eldar fluff, because it was so unfathomably against what I understood for the Eldar as a race.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Actually, I really don't mind the Ynnari fluff. It's the culmination of a plot-seed that's existed in the Eldar background for quite some time, and it's at least understandable that a fighter like Lelith might be bored with the stasis of Commorrite society, and seek to take the fight to their ancient nemesis. The Eldar finally have some sort of plan, rather than sitting around manipulating others in the vague hopes of living to see a prophesied End of Days that may or may not be real. They've finally realised "hey, we screw around with Fate in every other regard, why not our fight with Slaanesh?"

[Scribe]

The plot seed you mention needed the Eldar to die, this is something quite different. :p

[BadSanta]

There is one major issue with all of this.

GW is the best preforming stock on the London stock market right now.

They are selling stuff faster than they can make, and they are making a metric ton of money right now.

 

I hate the new lore, but GW is going to continue doing exactly what they’re doing now until their profits start going down.

 

You try to tell us what GW have a lot of problems right now? Yes they have.

 

I think you understimate the threat as you forget what the sudden death of Alan Bligh earlier this year literally ruined ForgeWorld.

 

Also to note: recently Amazon aquired LOTR license and declared what 6 (six!) seasons of LOTR TV series would be produced. It is a pile of cash for GW (they already have all the models) and I sure they will went for it (or at least try to do it). This, along with limited production capacity, means all previous drastical changes with 8ed lore, Primaris and Primarch insertion wasn't needed.

 

When LOTR TV Series hits the TV screens around the globe, when avalnche of GW LOTR models will hit the shelves. What happend with other universes and special games during that time one only could wonder about (but they sure don't have manpower and production capacity to manage all stuff at reasonable level at the same time).

[Lord_Caerolion]

Exactly, that's the point. They're finally being proactive about something that isn't screwing an empire-destroying deity into existence! :p

 

There is one major issue with all of this.
GW is the best preforming stock on the London stock market right now.
They are selling stuff faster than they can make, and they are making a metric ton of money right now.

I hate the new lore, but GW is going to continue doing exactly what they’re doing now until their profits start going down.

 

You try to tell us what GW have a lot of problems right now? Yes they have.

 

I think you understimate the threat as you forget what the sudden death of Alan Bligh earlier this year literally ruined ForgeWorld.

 

Also to note: recently Amazon aquired LOTR license and declared what 6 (six!) seasons of LOTR TV series would be produced. It is a pile of cash for GW (they already have all the models) and I sure they will went for it (or at least try to do it). This, along with limited production capacity, means all previous drastical changes with 8ed lore, Primaris and Primarch insertion wasn't needed.

 

When LOTR TV Series hits the TV screens around the globe, when avalnche of GW LOTR models will hit the shelves. What happend with other universes and special games during that time one only could wonder about (but they sure don't have manpower and production capacity to manage all stuff at reasonable level at the same time).

 

 

So how have Forge World been "ruined", exactly?

[Scribe]

I dont think its best to talk about a 'ruined' FW. FW is focusing on other priorities, and is hardly ruined.

[E_50_Panzer]

Interestingly, though, Lelith doesn't automatically have the Ynnari keyword, it's only an option. Hopefully this is setting the scene for the Dark Eldar to turn on the Ynnari at the first sign of a setback.

 

That would be quite nice actually. I hope that after all the Eldar codexes are said and done, Lelith can be used in either army at the least.

[Lord_Caerolion]

That's how she works in the Index, at least. Her actual datasheet has her only with Drukhari, but there's the option under the Ynnari rules to change it.

[Kizzdougs]

I wasn't playing the game in 5th or 6th edition, where some of the really big and cool things that people talk fondly about occurred. I can't speak to it, so I won't try. I do know several people who enjoyed those things. But that was years ago. A different time. A different king. It's very possible those who went through those releases may have to come to grips with a concept that eludes many of the older Star Wars fans: You aren't the target audience anymore. What worked then may not work now. Be kind to your new generation of players.

 

The people in the hobby and the attitudes they exhibit - such as how they treat their fellow hobbyists in threads like these - would be what drives me away from the hobby before any change in lore. "Lore first" means nothing in a game that take more than one person to play when the treatment by those who disagree is... Well.

 

40k is the people you play it with, not the models on the table.

That's all very true, but it's also a very game-centric perspective. Many people are in the hobby for the background or the miniatures rather than the game itself. Some people see it as a game that has miniatures and background material, and others see it as a setting that has miniatures and a game. Some people are happy to start a new army every month and play with unpainted miniatures, and some people are only happy to play games when they've fully painted their army and themed it around a specific aspect of the lore. Many people involved with the hobby don't even play the game. To these people the lore is at least as important as the game and the people they play it with (if they do play). 

 

I feel that GW is leaning more heavily towards the gaming aspect of the hobby these days, which is perfectly logical given that they are a corporate business, but it can leave certain people in the hobby feeling ignored or forgotten. And just because people that love the established lore aren't the current target audience, doesn't mean that they have to except the fact that the aspect of the hobby that they love the most is ignored or handled poorly/with contempt.

 

I acknowledge that I'm no longer the target audience, but that doesn't make me accepting of GW's current trajectory in regards to the fluff.

[Kinstryfe]

 

 

GW have already said they will continue to manufacture existing Space Marine kits. That beinf said, I highly doubt they'll come out with new ones. I expect nothing but Primaris from here on out.

 

In that vein, can I ask what new kits they might come up with that would fit with anything people think for Marines?

Well...*clears throat*...um...they could you know....

 

Update the ranges that have languished for decades, suffering in the wilderness, while Marine after Marine, after LOYALIST MARINE, kit was released.

Did...um... Did you just somehow manage to spin this into Chaos Marines are being phased out because of Primaris? : Glances at months worth of Thousand Sons and Death Guard releases:

Edit: because if you did, I'm not even mad. It's actually pretty impressive, and a somewhat valid point. Chaos Marines definitely need a new troops kit. With lots of modified heresy era armor...

[Scribe]

 

 

 

GW have already said they will continue to manufacture existing Space Marine kits. That beinf said, I highly doubt they'll come out with new ones. I expect nothing but Primaris from here on out.

In that vein, can I ask what new kits they might come up with that would fit with anything people think for Marines?

Well...*clears throat*...um...they could you know....

 

Update the ranges that have languished for decades, suffering in the wilderness, while Marine after Marine, after LOYALIST MARINE, kit was released.

Did...um... Did you just somehow manage to spin this into Chaos Marines are being phased out because of Primaris? : Glances at months worth of Thousand Sons and Death Guard releases:

Edit: because if you did, I'm not even mad. It's actually pretty impressive, and a somewhat valid point. Chaos Marines definitely need a new troops kit. With lots of modified heresy era armor...

 

 

No not at all. The point is, Primaris are here, because there is literally nothing left for Loyalist Marines for GW to make. New kits are often met with contempt at best (hi Centurions) and even the secondary kits (Assault Marines, Dev's) have been redone, in some cases multiple times.

 

Meanwhile, outside of full on REBOOTS (Dark Eldar, Necrons) many factions have had to suffer for DECADES with the same old, tired, models.

 

So if GW just needed to make new kits, why did we get Primaris, instead of you know, a good Chaos Space Marine kit, or hey Berzerkers that are not from what, 1998?

 

Its obscene.

 

Now, obviously, I KNOW why, because Loyalist Marines are the crack which makes GW money, but it still sucks.

 

And yes, we just got DG, and before that TS, but the point stands. How many years, near TWO DECADES has a 'major' faction suffered, so that Marines can get multipart plastic kits for their ELITES...

[Felix Antipodes]

Not trying to be clever here, but just which mortals are still with us at the end of the Indomitus Crusade? Still have a couple of books/codexes before I've fully caught up with the new dynamic and I feel that I missed or skimmed over this part of the debate somehow.

[Ogun]

I think a lot of the Guard characters. Pask is still alive. 

It is probably also worth noting that the birth of the Cicatrix caused all sorts of time shenanigans. Virtually no time had passed at Baal, but the Indomitus Crusade was 70 years old when it arrived. 

[Ishagu]

We don't know who's still alive. You can still use Tycho and we all know he died some time ago.

 

Honestly the more I read the more I'm surprised by the entitled vitriolic bashing of the new lore which, as I've pointed out before, isn't really different from what GW have written over the past decade.

 

This is another case of loud, vocal minorities. When I look at my local club and other communities I've visited there isn't the hatred on display here. Most people are happily getting on with things. I hope GW outright ignored all the negative posts. It's the same old "change is bad" crowd who hate Centurions, most new models and changes to the lore. Aren't you getting bored of whinging? The new lore is going to be fleshed out but it's not going to change or be erased.

 

The worst thing about the haters is their inability to accept that people might enjoy aspects of the new developments. After reading Dark Imperium there are a lot of plot points and revelations I like yet some of you are spouting opinions on the new lore as though they are objective facts.

How many of you here have read Dark Imperium and Devastation of Baal? When the books have been discussed on the forum some users have used it as an excuse to bash on the new changes and it's potentially affecting people's enjoyment. Perhaps it's time to accept and get over it.

[ERJAK]

 

 

 

 

GW have already said they will continue to manufacture existing Space Marine kits. That beinf said, I highly doubt they'll come out with new ones. I expect nothing but Primaris from here on out.

In that vein, can I ask what new kits they might come up with that would fit with anything people think for Marines?

Well...*clears throat*...um...they could you know....

 

Update the ranges that have languished for decades, suffering in the wilderness, while Marine after Marine, after LOYALIST MARINE, kit was released.

Did...um... Did you just somehow manage to spin this into Chaos Marines are being phased out because of Primaris? : Glances at months worth of Thousand Sons and Death Guard releases:

Edit: because if you did, I'm not even mad. It's actually pretty impressive, and a somewhat valid point. Chaos Marines definitely need a new troops kit. With lots of modified heresy era armor...

 

 

No not at all. The point is, Primaris are here, because there is literally nothing left for Loyalist Marines for GW to make. New kits are often met with contempt at best (hi Centurions) and even the secondary kits (Assault Marines, Dev's) have been redone, in some cases multiple times.

 

Meanwhile, outside of full on REBOOTS (Dark Eldar, Necrons) many factions have had to suffer for DECADES with the same old, tired, models.

 

So if GW just needed to make new kits, why did we get Primaris, instead of you know, a good Chaos Space Marine kit, or hey Berzerkers that are not from what, 1998?

 

Its obscene.

 

Now, obviously, I KNOW why, because Loyalist Marines are the crack which makes GW money, but it still sucks.

 

And yes, we just got DG, and before that TS, but the point stands. How many years, near TWO DECADES has a 'major' faction suffered, so that Marines can get multipart plastic kits for their ELITES...

 

You really don't get to discount 2(technically 4) major faction releases because you didn't get as much as loyalist marines. You're also lumping Chaos in with lines like Eldar Aspects and SoB when you frankly, from the perspective of an SoB player, seem to be getting absolutely buried in new kits. Chaos (admittedly excluding Slaanesh), has many Xenos players and the 'off-beat' imperial factions moving towards being just as irritated at this point by the number of Chaos kits coming out as they are with new primaris stuff.

 

Personally I think if they do another Chaos release within 7 months of the new Nurgle stuff coming out in January you're going to see a lot more unrest out of the many, many factions that have been left WAY farther in the dust. Does Chaos need new kits? Yeah. Is it cool that they're making yet more marine kits no one asked for instead of chaos? Not really.

 

But there's also this: Am I just as sick as seeing SPIKY MAHREENS as I am of regular marines? You betcha.

 

We need at least an 8 month stretch of Xenos and off the wall Imperium stuff, where the only power-armored releases have boob-plate.

[Subtle Discord]

An interesting discussion that I still need to catch entirely up on. I'm sitting on the picket fence with the fiction so far and I think it might impale me; it's not all bad, from what I have consumed so far, but it keeps having these moments sprinkled throughout that just don't sit right and feel a bit too hand-wavey and convenient that leave a bad taste. I get that they're selling a product at the end of the day, but when it happens it smells a bit too much of marketing and not story/setting craft; as mentioned by others, they don't have to be mutually exclusive. It can be frustrating to live in a world so driven by marketing that it 'needs' to be a factor in everything in some corporate minds. Your customer can be sophisticated and not require things quite so sugar coated and spoon fed. But as many have said, I suspect things are going to start fraying at the seams soon enough and maybe that coating is not going to stay so sweet as time passes. We shall see...

 

Cawl is part of the problem with the NeuLore. He’s not a valuable addition.

 

This sentiment struck me and instantly got me thinking it's a good example. Cawl has a bit too much Batman going on; he's always got something in his Batbelt for almost any situation. In my humble opinion, Cawl should have been introduced basically as he is in the fiction, but as a significant supporting character who has a protege/apprentice aiding him. (the model on the table would be the apprentice, not Cawl himself) While his 'plot armour' could at first seem thick, as he starts setting his long laid plan in motion with some mixed results he ultimately gets killed or is forced to sacrifice himself, thus forcing his apprentice to attempt to step in and complete his task. The protege has been with his master for millennia, knowing many of his secrets and groomed for such an eventuality, but now that the unthinkable has come to pass at such a critical moment, can they rise to the occasion? They have the training, tools, inherited wargear, perhaps even a recovered brain of their master, but can they really finish what the master has started, with all of its complexity, in time? If they can set things in motion will they be able to keep control without making some mistake along the way? It need not stop or change anything that is being introduced in the fiction or product wise, but it adds a bit of grim and a touch if dark as you're either rooting for or against this ward thrust into his master's spotlight. In turn, this opens the door a nicely plausible crack for the possibility of something going wrong in the future, just when it seems like things are going to plan.

 

But what do I know? I'm just a builder, painter, and collector who enjoys the fiction as a backdrop to give me at least some structure to build, paint, and collect. It does matter in a big way, but only in so much as to support what I'm really involved in the hobby for.