Sell me on Blood Talons

[Quixus]

Are blood talons really that bad compared to a pair of Furioso Fists? Both can reroll misses, both do three damage, but the blood talons have two less strength and  one less AP, yet they are three meltabombs more expensive.

 

Am I missing some cool rule like the extra attacks in 5th edition, or did GW this up?

[Damon Nightman]

Blood talons reroll to wound. That's the justification for the higher cost I assume

[Quixus]

Ah I missed the "and to wound" part. I'm still not sure that the reroll is worth 15 pts and the loss of wounding T6 on a 2+ and the AP.

[Panzer]

Well against T1-5 and T7-9 the Talons wound better than the Fists so it depends on what you want to attack with him I guess. ^^

[Karhedron]

Against infantry, rerolling 1s to wound is probably not worth the extra 15 points. Against T7-9 targets, rerolling 1s and 2s looks slightly more useful although again, whether it is worth the 15-point premium is debatable.

 

I think that in general, the loss of AP offsets the benefit of rerolling to wound meaning I think their 15 point premium is not worth it.

[Brother Crimson]

With red thirst you wound T9 and less on 2+ what you gain with reroll to one you lose with ap2 vs ap3.

 

Only better vs unit with invulnerable saves.

[Orpheus Black Blood]

But blood talons are strength 10 and with red thirst the first round of combat would wound toughness 9 or less on a 2+. Am i wrong?

 

Edit, too slow XD

Edited December 20, 2017 by Orpheus Black Blood

[Orblivion]

Ah I missed the "and to wound" part. I'm still not sure that the reroll is worth 15 pts and the loss of wounding T6 on a 2+ and the AP.

 

Against anything T9 or below you're still wounding on a 2+ because of Red Thirst, and the reroll means you'll be getting more wounds against those Toughness levels than with the Fists.  As sfPanzer said though, it will depend on what you want to hit with him.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Orblivion

[Panzer]

Right, I didn't include Red Thirst in my tought process.

So actually Talons wound better against T1-9 lol

[olcottr]

Because they look cooler.

[Damon Nightman]

Because they look cooler.

This is the real reason. I also roll an extraordinary amount of 1s...

[tychobi]

Can't. AP is kinda sad on the talons. Should be equal cost or have ap3 on the talons

[Karhedron]

With red thirst you wound T9 and less on 2+ what you gain with reroll to one you lose with ap2 vs ap3.

 

Only better vs unit with invulnerable saves.

D'oh, your quite right. That's teach me to type before I think properly.

 

Even less case for Blood Talons then. save the points and go Fists all the way.

[sebs_evo7]

Haven't got my codex on me but is the red thirst applied similar to how modifiers are applied to hit?

[Pendent]

Haven't got my codex on me but is the red thirst applied similar to how modifiers are applied to hit?

Modifiers happen before rerolls but because the Red Thirst is a +1 it doesn't actually matter.

[Withershadow]

Still fail on natural 1s though.

 

When wounding on 2s, you are successful ~83% of the time. Rerolls kick that to an astonishing 97%. The reduction in AP means it is 16.6% more likely to fail to penetrate armor. So in that regard it’s basically a wash. 14% more likely to wound, 17% less likely to get through armor.

 

However against anything with higher toughness and/or an invulnerable save, the Talons are much better.

[Brother Crimson]

Haven't got my codex on me but is the red thirst applied similar to how modifiers are applied to hit?

It is applied like other mod, it means astorath get flat 3 dmg on 5-6 on dice, but that is a different subject.

[sebs_evo7]

Yep was just thinking while i was driving and thought there could be a situation where you would be forced to re roll a 2 despite it wounding

[swordofmandulis]

So they did that in the Dark Artisan batrep the other day, but the wording for rerolls doesn't say anything about MUST re roll so I see no reason why you wouldn't just leave those on the table and re roll the ones that will still be fails after the modifier is applied.

[Pendent]

Yep was just thinking while i was driving and thought there could be a situation where you would be forced to re roll a 2 despite it wounding

 

That is fortunately incorrect. The wording on the Blood Talons is that you can reroll failed hit and wound rolls, not that you must.