Malcador: First Lord of the Imperium.

[Ascanius]

I also don't think the manipulations of Chaos shown in False Gods and Galaxy in Flames are all that good. It's too rushed; I agree with a comment made elsewhere by either Laurie or someone like AD-B or Gav that the Heresy should have actually started as a purely mundane rebellion and the Traitors only fallen to Chaos later.

[A D-B]

I also don't think the manipulations of Chaos shown in False Gods and Galaxy in Flames are all that good. It's too rushed; I agree with a comment made elsewhere by either Laurie or someone like AD-B or Gav that the Heresy should have actually started as a purely mundane rebellion and the Traitors only fallen to Chaos later.

 

I don't recall saying that, but it's an idea I like - it's what makes the Badab War such a credible and interesting conflict in the scope and context of the Imperium, and one of the reasons the Horus Heresy made more comfortable sense as a creation myth, not something examined in minute detail. If you know the deeper lore pertaining to it, Badab is a legitimate civil war that makes profound sense in the setting, from build-up to escalation to resolution. The Horus Heresy is a creation myth now retrofitted as a story.

 

That's not automatically a bad thing, but it comes with downsides.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

I also don't think the manipulations of Chaos shown in False Gods and Galaxy in Flames are all that good. It's too rushed; I agree with a comment made elsewhere by either Laurie or someone like AD-B or Gav that the Heresy should have actually started as a purely mundane rebellion and the Traitors only fallen to Chaos later.

I don't recall saying that, but it's an idea I like - it's what makes the Badab War such a credible and interesting conflict in the scope and context of the Imperium, and one of the reasons the Horus Heresy made more comfortable sense as a creation myth, not something examined in minute detail. If you know the deeper lore pertaining to it, Badab is a legitimate civil war that makes profound sense in the setting, from build-up to escalation to resolution. The Horus Heresy is a creation myth now retrofitted as a story.

 

That's not automatically a bad thing, but it comes with downsides.

from memory it was LG.

[Ascanius]

It's also, I think, fascinating to look at how the story of Horus has evolved. Go back to Realms of Chaos, and Horus was the Emperor's friend and general who betrayed him. No Primarchs, no father-son relationship, and even Space Marines weren't yet explicitly as different either psychologically or physiologically from normal humans as they are now.

 

There have been several versions of the confrontation between Horus and the Emperor, including two incompatible versions both written by William King, I believe. I think in the first, short vignette, Horus is still just the Emperor's old friend.

 

You get the idiotic fan-memes about Ollanius Pius, to the point where people act like it's a betrayal if the Emperor doesn't hold back until the obliteration of a simple Guardsman proves Horus is beyond redemption . . . but that meme is much younger than even the notion that it was a Guardsman, rather than an Imperial Fists Terminator, who intervened.

[b1soul]

I feel that there is such a thing as poor writing in the HH series, e.g. certain instances of Primarch stupidity. The quality and nature of Primarch portrayals also fluctuates wildly.

 

As for Laurie, I think he's an OK writer along the lines of Thorpe, Kyme, and Swallow.

 

The idea that the Emperor may have planned to somehow cull the Astartes legions has been around for a long time. I guess it's nice that Laurie managed to incorporate that idea into the platitudes offered by an in-universe character.

 

I do like the idea that the Emperor engineered conflicting personalities to ensure a minimum level of discord among the primarchs. Perhaps he wanted the primarchs to keep themselves in check, so that there would never be a 20-primarch rebellion against the Emperor. Perhaps he didn't want the primarchs to grow too close to each other so as to form a single bloc.

 

The idea that the Emperor thought a galactic civil war would be a good way to cull the primarchs and their legions is silly.

 

Laurie's story is neither a brilliant nor terrible exploration of these ideas.

[Kelborn]

I also don't think the manipulations of Chaos shown in False Gods and Galaxy in Flames are all that good. It's too rushed; I agree with a comment made elsewhere by either Laurie or someone like AD-B or Gav that the Heresy should have actually started as a purely mundane rebellion and the Traitors only fallen to Chaos later.

Now, I'm glad that our Icarion Insurrection does exactly this.

 

It would ne way more believable than the rushed daemonic Fulgrim, etc.

[Ascanius]

Fulgrim doesn't bother me much, since he was possessed; Horus is more of the issue, along with "If the Emperor's so powerful and wise, why didn't he kill Kor Phaeron immediately?"

[Scribe]

There are so many issues in our views and theories, but what we have to assume is that certain things are true, and then find justified reasons for those truths.

 

This is what Betrayer, and MoM did with Angron for example.

 

We have Angron. He is broken, yet the Emperor keeps him around, why?

 

That's what some of the questions and holes being pointed out are not addressing.

 

Why didn't he make 18 Robs? Well, he simply didn't. Why?

 

Was it a deal with Chaos?

Was it intended by the Emperor or an accident?

Was it Nature vs Nurture that gave us Kurze and Angron?

Why did he favour the Fists over the IW?

 

That is what some of these books (the good ones) have tried to do. Give clarity and context to the puzzles that the old lore has left us with.

 

The whole idea that the 'bad guys' could have just been sent to the frontier is missing the fact that the legions were self contained in many ways.

 

Night Lords, World Eaters, Death Guard, and Iron Warriors always had the seeds of rebellion present.

 

As they always had beef or instability in their legions practice.

[hopkins]

An interesting quote from Him in today's short

 

‘My sons were taken from me, whispered to during transit to set dark thoughts in their minds. Temptations. Lies. Propaganda. Tell me, Malcador the Sigillite, how many times have you resisted the efforts of our enemy’s lures?’

[Scribe]

I'll probably grab that short.

 

I think Moloch is the major question that hasn't (to my knowledge) been explored or answered.

 

What happened, was a deal struck, how much of it is lies, on either side!

 

I hope we get some Horus v Emp dialogue on this subject.

[Loesh]

 

I also don't think the manipulations of Chaos shown in False Gods and Galaxy in Flames are all that good. It's too rushed; I agree with a comment made elsewhere by either Laurie or someone like AD-B or Gav that the Heresy should have actually started as a purely mundane rebellion and the Traitors only fallen to Chaos later.

 

I don't recall saying that, but it's an idea I like - it's what makes the Badab War such a credible and interesting conflict in the scope and context of the Imperium, and one of the reasons the Horus Heresy made more comfortable sense as a creation myth, not something examined in minute detail. If you know the deeper lore pertaining to it, Badab is a legitimate civil war that makes profound sense in the setting, from build-up to escalation to resolution. The Horus Heresy is a creation myth now retrofitted as a story.

 

That's not automatically a bad thing, but it comes with downsides.

 

An idea i'v always liked playing around with was the concept of the rebellion being legit, even noble in intent with no Chaos use whatsoever. Just that the marines turned when they were inevitably forced into the Eye of Terror.

 

Of course when the HH even got the most base level of detail, that became impossible.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

I also don't think the manipulations of Chaos shown in False Gods and Galaxy in Flames are all that good. It's too rushed; I agree with a comment made elsewhere by either Laurie or someone like AD-B or Gav that the Heresy should have actually started as a purely mundane rebellion and the Traitors only fallen to Chaos later.

I don't recall saying that, but it's an idea I like - it's what makes the Badab War such a credible and interesting conflict in the scope and context of the Imperium, and one of the reasons the Horus Heresy made more comfortable sense as a creation myth, not something examined in minute detail. If you know the deeper lore pertaining to it, Badab is a legitimate civil war that makes profound sense in the setting, from build-up to escalation to resolution. The Horus Heresy is a creation myth now retrofitted as a story.

 

That's not automatically a bad thing, but it comes with downsides.

An idea i'v always liked playing around with was the concept of the rebellion being legit, even noble in intent with no Chaos use whatsoever. Just that the marines turned when they were inevitably forced into the Eye of Terror.

 

Of course when the HH even got the most base level of detail, that became impossible.

Boy, what an awesome story that would’ve been. Chaos, everpresent in the minds of traitors, providing them with conviction they are doing the right thing. Guiding them to safety during the Scouring. Only to reveal their true intent once the traitors were trapped in the eye. That’s the creation myth kinda thing ADB was talking about. The parable.

 

 

That’s the stuff of legends right there.

[Loesh]

I would adore that, and it also would of swerved the readership pretty hard. Could you imagine what HH would of been like if we saw Chaos machinations yes, but never saw an *actual* Chaos Space Marine until the Siege of Terra? or even until we got into a Scouring book series?

[Marshal Rohr]

It would've been a transcendently beautiful science fiction epic for the ages.

[bluntblade]

Eh, depends how it was executed. And it would've robbed us of a great many things.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

I also don't think the manipulations of Chaos shown in False Gods and Galaxy in Flames are all that good. It's too rushed; I agree with a comment made elsewhere by either Laurie or someone like AD-B or Gav that the Heresy should have actually started as a purely mundane rebellion and the Traitors only fallen to Chaos later.

I don't recall saying that, but it's an idea I like - it's what makes the Badab War such a credible and interesting conflict in the scope and context of the Imperium, and one of the reasons the Horus Heresy made more comfortable sense as a creation myth, not something examined in minute detail. If you know the deeper lore pertaining to it, Badab is a legitimate civil war that makes profound sense in the setting, from build-up to escalation to resolution. The Horus Heresy is a creation myth now retrofitted as a story.

 

That's not automatically a bad thing, but it comes with downsides.

An idea i'v always liked playing around with was the concept of the rebellion being legit, even noble in intent with no Chaos use whatsoever. Just that the marines turned when they were inevitably forced into the Eye of Terror.

 

Of course when the HH even got the most base level of detail, that became impossible.

Boy, what an awesome story that would’ve been. Chaos, everpresent in the minds of traitors, providing them with conviction they are doing the right thing. Guiding them to safety during the Scouring. Only to reveal their true intent once the traitors were trapped in the eye. That’s the creation myth kinda thing ADB was talking about. The parable.

 

 

That’s the stuff of legends right there.

 

 

i like that take, and could have preferred it if done well

 

but the creation myth adb was talking about was the one we already had for years before horus rising.

[MrDarth151]

Eh, depends how it was executed. And it would've robbed us of a great many things.

 

The story you've never read (or wrote) will always look better in your mind than the one you've got. That's true for writers and readers alike.

 

For myself, I prefer HH to be this legendary event, rather than it being done down to Terra. It strikes me as trying to be clever, and I think that trying to be clever has hurt this series enough already. 

 

There is a trend in modern writing to believe that subversions and twists automatically make the story better, and I, for one, disagree deeply with it. To put it bluntly: Horus Heresy took many twists and turns I have never expected, but it has not made it better in my eyes.

 

And the less I say about the portrayal of the Emperor, the better.

[mc warhammer]

 

There is a trend in modern writing to believe that subversions and twists automatically make the story better, and I, for one, disagree deeply with it. To put it bluntly: Horus Heresy took many twists and turns I have never expected, but it has not made it better in my eyes.

 

i like subvervise story telling, but i think its in a different vein to what you're describing. i'm 100% in agreement about twists in modern storytelling; it's one of my biggest gripes. worse, the trend has almost become a standard that's created an expectation in audiences. it's almost like they can't accept a story nowadays that doesn't employ tricks.

 

i won't talk about it directly in terms of the horus heresy though. from reading this board, it seems to me that one person's twist can be another person's confirmation. for the manipulations that i found cheap, i'm hoping they follow through with something worthwhile.

[Phoebus]

There are so many issues in our views and theories, but what we have to assume is that certain things are true, and then find justified reasons for those truths.

 

This is what Betrayer, and MoM did with Angron for example.

 

We have Angron. He is broken, yet the Emperor keeps him around, why?

Until we started seeing hints that the Emperor was in on the scattering, this had a fairly easy answer: you get lemons, you try to make lemonade. The Emperor gambled on a broken Primarch being better than no Primarch. There were atrocities, there were massacres, but for the being that operates on a completely macro-level morality, the swift conquest of the Galaxy was everything - and the XII Legion contributed to that more effectively with Angron than without.

 

Why didn't he make 18 Robs? Well, he simply didn't. Why?

But that’s the thing: until the revelations of Deliverance Lost, one could argue that the Primarchs were shaped at least as much by their destinations as they were by the Emperor.

 

Night Lords, World Eaters, Death Guard, and Iron Warriors always had the seeds of rebellion present.

 

As they always had beef or instability in their legions practice.

Did they, though? I think the Forgeworld Heresy books are excellent, but they’re clearly written with hindsight. Prior to them, most of our awareness of the legions started after their reunion with their Primarch. Until a few years ago, the Night Lords were what they were because of Nostramo, the World Eaters because of the Butcher’s Nails, the Death Guard because of Barbarus, and the Iron Warriors because of Perturabo’s disgruntlement.

 

That is what some of these books (the good ones) have tried to do. Give clarity and context to the puzzles that the old lore has left us with.

I think the best books of the series have done an admirable job of breathing life into the various legions. Not enough has been done by any entry, however, to promote the ...

 

... Emperor as the author of the Horus Heresy ...

 

... angle, though, with even the excellent The First Heretic focusing first and foremost on Lorgar, his beliefs, and the influence of the Ruinous Powers. Some of these glimpses that we’re getting as part of Advent Calendar subscriptions should’ve been delivered as far back as Mechanicum, or The Outcast Dead. By that logic, though, the entire series would have benefited from a different release order... or at least a different structure. The Primarchs series, for instance, may vary in quality but they’re a stroke of genius. With the benefit of hindsight, these should have been released in parallel to the main series from the start... and several titles that were part of the main series should probably have been released under the Primarchs imprint.

 

(I’m looking at you, Descent of Angels!)

[Indefragable]

Just listened to this one...twice.

 

Wow.

 

Some doozies in here.

 

First off, this is a lost gem. HIGHLY recommend it.

 

Secondly, this is the best atypical Warhammer/BL story since The Last Church. Opinions will vary of course, but that's the closest thing to compare to in terms of how it setups the background of the setting and the absolute lack of a single bolt shell fired, or even a weapon raised.

 

Overall I highly recommend this short listen because it will give you key insights into who Malcador is and his role in the Imperium, while also dropping some "whoa! Let me back up and hear that again!" bombs, all packaged in a touchingly Tuesdays with Morrie type scenario of letting an old friend quietly pass away.

 

Major spoilers:

Seriously, these are some big spoilers about the setting that could change your view on things and pretty much give away the good parts of the story...

 

 

You've been warned...

 

Malcador is 6,718 years old (and change)

 

 

 

...and Malcador chose the Emperor, not the other way around...

 

 

...and this next one is a BIG one:

 

 

...and it was always intended to have some Primarchs rebel against each other and the Emperor. Basically, the Primarchs and Astartes are Thunder Warriors 2.0 in every way, shape, and form: they were designed with a specific purpose and were then meant to be killed off so that normal humans could inherit the galaxy. Rebellion was the means for controlling them: from selected traits in the geneseed, to deliberate favoritism towards some over others, to why each was given a particular role was all meant to lead up to a final apocalyptic battle that would kill them all off.

 

...but of course the scattering of the infant Primarchs messed things up, and the Horus Heresy ruined the timing of it all, let alone who may have been meant to be on what side.

 

Spoiler to the Spoiler:

...but then again, like Master of Mankind, even all of the above may be a deliberate ruse. Malcador starts off saying all of the above with the words "would it give you comfort to know..."  and then has an ending soliloquy about "why do I have to keep on lying to them? You said it wouldn't be like this!"

 

...so who actually knows. But if even parts of the above are true...whoa!

 

 

[carlisimo]

You're half a year late to the party!

 

The first time I listened to it, I missed the "why do I keep lying to them?" line because the volume dips around that moment. I would've missed it forever if not for all the commotion online. I have to keep the volume down when other people at home are asleep, so volume variation is always an issue for me.

 

Lie or not, the idea makes sense to me. My pure speculation is that, prior to meeting any of the primarchs and seeing how they turned out, the Emperor's plan could've been as follows:

 

-Magnus has to stay alive to direct Webway traffic from the Golden Throne

-His legion would be a distraction, so let's give them a flesh change epidemic to take them out of the picture.

 

-The Trefoil of special legions are the only ones originally designed to be kept after the Crusade:

-Alpha Legion as secret paramilitary police. Every dictator needs that.

-Salamanders for use against non-humans in the post-Crusade galaxy. They're the only Astartes that Imperial citizen will see on a regular basis, which is why they were designed to be friendly - but also designed to look not-quite human, to maintain a degree of separation.

-Space Wolves will overlook the two others, and also get sent in against human targets when overt force is necessary.

 

That doesn't mean the Emperor can't decide to keep other legions if they turn out well. Guilliman is clearly trying to keep the Ultramarines relevant, for example, and you could make a case for keeping small numbers from most of the other loyalist legions (as monster hunters, scouts, defense engineers, etc.). But that's something the Emperor would decide on only after getting to know them. I don't think the plan was to keep all the loyalists - the Blood Angels' genetic flaw probably isn't a mistake, and Sanguinius has been designed to be self-sacrificing so that the Imperium doesn't have to somehow accommodate an obvious mutant.

 

Horus was made ambitious so that he would rebel. Other traitor primarchs were nudged towards resentment.

 

But the plan was to have a secular rebellion/Astartes cull, hence Malcador being surprised at how quickly the Chaos gods had acted. They were ready to handle regular Horus, not Chaos-imbued Horus with the Ruinstorm hurting loyalist logistics so badly.

[Indefragable]

You're half a year late to the party!

 

The first time I listened to it, I missed the "why do I keep lying to them?" line because the volume dips around that moment. I would've missed it forever if not for all the commotion online. I have to keep the volume down when other people at home are asleep, so volume variation is always an issue for me.

 

Lie or not, the idea makes sense to me. My pure speculation is that, prior to meeting any of the primarchs and seeing how they turned out, the Emperor's plan could've been as follows:

 

-Magnus has to stay alive to direct Webway traffic from the Golden Throne

-His legion would be a distraction, so let's give them a flesh change epidemic to take them out of the picture.

 

-The Trefoil of special legions are the only ones originally designed to be kept after the Crusade:

-Alpha Legion as secret paramilitary police. Every dictator needs that.

-Salamanders for use against non-humans in the post-Crusade galaxy. They're the only Astartes that Imperial citizen will see on a regular basis, which is why they were designed to be friendly - but also designed to look not-quite human, to maintain a degree of separation.

-Space Wolves will overlook the two others, and also get sent in against human targets when overt force is necessary.

 

That doesn't mean the Emperor can't decide to keep other legions if they turn out well. Guilliman is clearly trying to keep the Ultramarines relevant, for example, and you could make a case for keeping small numbers from most of the other loyalist legions (as monster hunters, scouts, defense engineers, etc.). But that's something the Emperor would decide on only after getting to know them. I don't think the plan was to keep all the loyalists - the Blood Angels' genetic flaw probably isn't a mistake, and Sanguinius has been designed to be self-sacrificing so that the Imperium doesn't have to somehow accommodate an obvious mutant.

 

Horus was made ambitious so that he would rebel. Other traitor primarchs were nudged towards resentment.

 

But the plan was to have a secular rebellion/Astartes cull, hence Malcador being surprised at how quickly the Chaos gods had acted. They were ready to handle regular Horus, not Chaos-imbued Horus with the Ruinstorm hurting loyalist logistics so badly.

 

Hey, I just found out about this neat little tale a few weeks back...

 

Anyhoo, in response to your spoiler'd comments:

 

It's definitely fun to speculate. However, I think there's a tendency in modern literature/fandom to backsplain everything. (This is a theoretical example; I have not seen the new Solo movie nor do I believe this is what actually happens): but it'd be like speculating that Han Solo once smuggled a Jedi, and he had a kid brother who was a moisture farmer, and a shooting star signified that he would one day fall in love with a rebel princess, and a fortune cookie told him to go hang out in a Mos Eisley cantina. For me, the happy accident of Han being in that bar at that time and space is one of the fun and realistic aspects of the narrative.

 

Perhaps its my background in HR, but I (IMHO) think it's far more interesting to think about how maybe the Lion was supposed to be the #2 guy and Horus was just another warlord, but chaos really messed things up so the Emps made due with the order of re-discovery. Playing with the cards he was dealt.

 

For me, the other big reveal, that Malcador chose the Emperor and not the other way around, has massive implications. That little bit alone could be genesis for a "20k" story that is set even before Unification on Terra.

 

[animal310]

“The Emperor planned it all” is for me, lazy and stupid. If that’s the road they are going down, I’m not interested.

 

What I loved about the setting was the tragedy of the betrayal of half the primarchs, if they had just stayed the course all would have been well and humanity would have triumphed, but it all falls apart right at the end.

 

The narrative that the Emperor is a complete dick is one which I also do not like. Ruthless, yes, a total evil bastard. No. The Emperor needs some love!

 

Like all ‘conspiracy theories’ “the Emperor planned it all” does not hold up to scrutiny.

[animal310]

“The Emperor stands transfixed, trying to force frozen words from his tongue. In the end he can only whisper; “Why?”

“Oh yeah, cancel, i planned it all, duh”

Honestly is this what we are heading for? The original story as written is tragic, is not some Machiavellian plan of the Emperor, has weight to it and should be respected. We have seen next to nothing so far in the HH series of the essentially decent Emperor depicted in the orginal source material. Personally I find that very disappointing.

[mc warhammer]

there’s been a few references and povs of the emperor as “good”, if not any direct stuff from the emp himself. from what i saw even back in the IA days, he always acted in mystifying and ruthless ways

 

from my understanding of the this story, it’s ambiguous. you can take or leave it