Malcador: First Lord of the Imperium.

[DarkChaplain]

You could almost think Laurie stole people's lunch money and handed out wedgies in return...

[Marshal Rohr]

The more i read about the 'planned rebellion' idea the more i dislike it. Its just so full of logical holes.

 

Tho it is the perfect staging ground for the Laurie Goulding special 'its not badly thought out you all are just too simple to comprehend it'. So in a way it makes perfect sense.

He’s not with the company now and they will never confirm if it’s planned or not in any of the work so hopefully all that nonesense died when he bailed.

[MrDarth151]

You could almost think Laurie stole people's lunch money and handed out wedgies in return...

 

Because... disliking his handling of the narrative means personal grudge now?

 

I'm sorry, but this is a fallacious approach to this argument. Whether or not I like the man is irrelevant. I find his approach to the particular subject of the Emperor of Mankind to be poor. Saying that I do it just because I don't like him is tantamount to ad hominem. I do it, because I don't find the narrative compelling.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

You could almost think Laurie stole people's lunch money and handed out wedgies in return...

Because... disliking his handling of the narrative means personal grudge now?

 

I'm sorry, but this is a fallacious approach to this argument. Whether or not I like the man is irrelevant. I find his approach to the particular subject of the Emperor of Mankind to be poor. Saying that I do it just because I don't like him is tantamount to ad hominem. I do it, because I don't find the narrative compelling.

It wouldn’t be as hominem either. If you follow his twitter you can see examples of him belittling people well before MoM came out when most of us considered him a fellow frater and nice guy. It’s like finding out the guy at the office everyone likes talks mad :cuss about everyone at home. Really disappointing.

[Cleanse And Purify]

I have no feelings on Goulding but I do strongly dislike the "JUST AS PLANNED" Horus Heresy narrative. Sounds like a terrible 1d4chan meme. Personally, I prefer the idea that Malcador is making it up just to comfort the dying astropath, give her the illusion that everything is under control.

 

I don't mind the theory existing, but I do hope they never confirm it. Similar to Master of Mankind, where Land perceives the Emperor as this cold, pragmatic scientist. Is the Emperor truly this way, is he playing a part for Land, or does it go even further, and everyone hears what they "want to hear" when the Emperor speaks (1 Corinthians 9:22, Emperor in a nutshell)? I like the ambiguity it introduces into the setting, and I hope they never resolve it either way.

[MrDarth151]

I don't mind the theory existing, but I do hope they never confirm it. Similar to Master of Mankind, where Land perceives the Emperor as this cold, pragmatic scientist. Is the Emperor truly this way, is he playing a part for Land, or does it go even further, and everyone hears what they "want to hear" when the Emperor speaks (1 Corinthians 9:22, Emperor in a nutshell)? I like the ambiguity it introduces into the setting, and I hope they never resolve it either way.

 

The problem is, in my mind, that this idea doesn't really work when it comes to its practical implementation. It works, if we treat HH as a creation myth, which it isn't. Not any more.

 

What of Lorgar? What of Angron? Did they also hear what they wanted to hear? If so, how do you explain bitter resentment Angron has towards the Emperor of Mankind? How do you explain Emperor breaking Lorgar's viewpoint so completely, if Lorgar was supposed to hear arguments that were supposed sound believable in his ears? How do we explain away the fact that philosophy and practice are tied to one another, to the point that, if people heard what they wanted to hear from the Emperor, it would lead to seemingly contrary actions?

 

The idea is good, but not if we consider the Emperor to be a factor that acts and orders people. It works for a prophet, not a leader of major polity, in a conflict that overwhelmingly relies on people betraying someone they should trust explicitly.

 

This idea was introduced in the last stages of a major storyline, and the rest of it just doesn't line up with it. Not helped by the fact that Emperor's portrayal, frankly, does not support the idea of ambiguity. It supports the idea of him being manipulative bastard that isn't that good at his job, by our standards, not standards of immortal gods with intellect beyond human understanding.

[Cleanse And Purify]

Maybe he can turn it off?

[nagashnee]

You could almost think Laurie stole people's lunch money and handed out wedgies in return...

 

I would quote the man himself but i would at best get a mod warning and at worse a ban. Should tell you all you need to know about how he treated the customer base. 

[helterskelter]

 

 

You could almost think Laurie stole people's lunch money and handed out wedgies in return...

I would quote the man himself but i would at best get a mod warning and at worse a ban. Should tell you all you need to know about how he treated the customer base.

Replace the curse words with:cuss I wanna see how bad he is because I don't tweet

[Indefragable]

 

 

You could almost think Laurie stole people's lunch money and handed out wedgies in return...

I would quote the man himself but i would at best get a mod warning and at worse a ban. Should tell you all you need to know about how he treated the customer base.

Replace the curse words with:cuss I wanna see how bad he is because I don't tweet

 

 

Yea, okay, this is something we really need to see (for those of us in the dark about this).

[nagashnee]

You dont have to go on twitter, he was quite vocal on sites such as this as well. Funnily enought describing sites like this. Mewling *cuss*tards were the War Seer users for instance. Who were better off dead then active.

 

But then again at least 'Laurie' did not take anyones lunch money eh DarkChaplain?

[animal310]

OK, I found it. In this thread on 2016-12-06:

 

 

 

 

 

On a personal opinion level, I don't see how anyone can say the Emperor made bad decisions. He had a plan so complex that human minds can't comprehend it, and then Chaos threw the plan off-centre, and he never managed to recover, or things were done in his name that ended up ruining the plan.

Maybe, MAYBE, it was something like this?

1) So, I need to help mankind ascend. The way I do that is by unifying the Imperium, removing the need for warp travel and then dying gloriously. That's my divine plan, I move in mysterious ways etc.

2) First, unify Terra, except my Custodian Guard are too valuable and too few to do it quickly. Create army of gene-spliced barbarian Thunder Warriors.

3) Terra is unified. Have Custodians kill off key elements of Thunder Legion, rest will eventually die because I didn't build them to last.

4) Reconquer galaxy. Going to need to be in about 20 places at once for this, so create post-human primarch generals to lead my armies of transhuman Space Marines. Give them all unique traits to add variety and specialisations.

5) Make deal with UNKNOWABLE GODS OF DARKNESS. Part of the deal involves "accidentally" scattering the primarchs across the galaxy. That's okay though, because I'll end up finding all those worlds as I conquer the galaxy anyway.

6) Next phase after this is a new age of peace and prosperity for mankind, where we won't need Space Marines or primarchs. Hmmm... I can't build in a limited lifespan as I don't know how long they need to last... So instead I need something a bit more elaborate...

7) Part of new age will also be the webway, which will get rid of three of the most powerful parts of the crusading Imperium - the Navigators, the Legions and the Primarchs. None of them are going to be happy about that, and they will do whatever they can to stop it, if they find out.

8) Instead of risking an unpredictable rebellion, I will engineer a smaller one. I know, I'll put Primarch XVI in charge of the others - he's popular, and ambitious, and smart. He'll figure out what I'm doing, and I've given him everything he needs to rebel in a manageable way, AND gotten rid of the psykers in the Legions who might have been able to foresee it. There's no way this can all go wrong, especially because I abolished all religion and any possible interaction with those DARK GODS that I tricked earlier...

9) Leave Great Crusade, start work on the webway.

10) :cuss, MAGNUS. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? THIS WAS ALL CAREFULLY BALANCED, YOU DINGUS. Russ, go and fetch Magnus. What an idiot. I need to explain my secret plan to him. Hope that doesn't mess with the whole Horus thing... anyway, I need to deal with this. Dorn, Malcador, hold my calls while I go back downstairs. Sigh, daemons everywhere...

11) ...Wait, WHAT? I've been in another realm, unable to monitor the actions of my underlings, and you've all completely thrown this plan down the toilet. Right, I'll fix this. Let's just wait for Horus and his... four, five... NINE?!... traitor Legions to come here. It's fine, I can still have a glorious death, Chaos is now quite clearly the biggest danger to all sentient life, and humanity will do pretty much anything I say.

12) Deal with Horus. Hey Malcador, hold my beer...

I get the impression that Goulding did not like the original version (maybe it ‘didn’t meet his personal expectations’) and wanted to change it to this, his personal preference. I strongly dislike it. I can only now hope that it is left ambiguous so that we can each take our own read on events.

[bluntblade]

 

 

 

 

You could almost think Laurie stole people's lunch money and handed out wedgies in return...

I would quote the man himself but i would at best get a mod warning and at worse a ban. Should tell you all you need to know about how he treated the customer base.

Replace the curse words with:cuss I wanna see how bad he is because I don't tweet

Yea, okay, this is something we really need to see (for those of us in the dark about this).

I'm not going to enjoy seeing it, but I'm also curious.

[MrDarth151]

 

OK, I found it. In this thread on 2016-12-06:

 

 

 

On a personal opinion level, I don't see how anyone can say the Emperor made bad decisions. He had a plan so complex that human minds can't comprehend it, and then Chaos threw the plan off-centre, and he never managed to recover, or things were done in his name that ended up ruining the plan.

Maybe, MAYBE, it was something like this?

1) So, I need to help mankind ascend. The way I do that is by unifying the Imperium, removing the need for warp travel and then dying gloriously. That's my divine plan, I move in mysterious ways etc.

2) First, unify Terra, except my Custodian Guard are too valuable and too few to do it quickly. Create army of gene-spliced barbarian Thunder Warriors.

3) Terra is unified. Have Custodians kill off key elements of Thunder Legion, rest will eventually die because I didn't build them to last.

4) Reconquer galaxy. Going to need to be in about 20 places at once for this, so create post-human primarch generals to lead my armies of transhuman Space Marines. Give them all unique traits to add variety and specialisations.

5) Make deal with UNKNOWABLE GODS OF DARKNESS. Part of the deal involves "accidentally" scattering the primarchs across the galaxy. That's okay though, because I'll end up finding all those worlds as I conquer the galaxy anyway.

6) Next phase after this is a new age of peace and prosperity for mankind, where we won't need Space Marines or primarchs. Hmmm... I can't build in a limited lifespan as I don't know how long they need to last... So instead I need something a bit more elaborate...

7) Part of new age will also be the webway, which will get rid of three of the most powerful parts of the crusading Imperium - the Navigators, the Legions and the Primarchs. None of them are going to be happy about that, and they will do whatever they can to stop it, if they find out.

8) Instead of risking an unpredictable rebellion, I will engineer a smaller one. I know, I'll put Primarch XVI in charge of the others - he's popular, and ambitious, and smart. He'll figure out what I'm doing, and I've given him everything he needs to rebel in a manageable way, AND gotten rid of the psykers in the Legions who might have been able to foresee it. There's no way this can all go wrong, especially because I abolished all religion and any possible interaction with those DARK GODS that I tricked earlier...

9) Leave Great Crusade, start work on the webway.

10) :cuss, MAGNUS. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? THIS WAS ALL CAREFULLY BALANCED, YOU DINGUS. Russ, go and fetch Magnus. What an idiot. I need to explain my secret plan to him. Hope that doesn't mess with the whole Horus thing... anyway, I need to deal with this. Dorn, Malcador, hold my calls while I go back downstairs. Sigh, daemons everywhere...

11) ...Wait, WHAT? I've been in another realm, unable to monitor the actions of my underlings, and you've all completely thrown this plan down the toilet. Right, I'll fix this. Let's just wait for Horus and his... four, five... NINE?!... traitor Legions to come here. It's fine, I can still have a glorious death, Chaos is now quite clearly the biggest danger to all sentient life, and humanity will do pretty much anything I say.

12) Deal with Horus. Hey Malcador, hold my beer...

I get the impression that Goulding did not like the original verison and wanted to change it to this, his personal preference. I strongly dislike it. I can only now hope that it is left ambiguous so that we can each take our own read on events.

 

 

If anything, it makes his later claims that he aimed for ambiguous portrayal of the Emperor in the course of Heresy suspect, because what we have gotten so far fits this completely.

 

I dislike dishonesty. I might not like this interpretation at all, but if you are going to go with it, just go with.

[animal310]

 

 

OK, I found it. In this thread on 2016-12-06:

 

 

 

On a personal opinion level, I don't see how anyone can say the Emperor made bad decisions. He had a plan so complex that human minds can't comprehend it, and then Chaos threw the plan off-centre, and he never managed to recover, or things were done in his name that ended up ruining the plan.

Maybe, MAYBE, it was something like this?

1) So, I need to help mankind ascend. The way I do that is by unifying the Imperium, removing the need for warp travel and then dying gloriously. That's my divine plan, I move in mysterious ways etc.

2) First, unify Terra, except my Custodian Guard are too valuable and too few to do it quickly. Create army of gene-spliced barbarian Thunder Warriors.

3) Terra is unified. Have Custodians kill off key elements of Thunder Legion, rest will eventually die because I didn't build them to last.

4) Reconquer galaxy. Going to need to be in about 20 places at once for this, so create post-human primarch generals to lead my armies of transhuman Space Marines. Give them all unique traits to add variety and specialisations.

5) Make deal with UNKNOWABLE GODS OF DARKNESS. Part of the deal involves "accidentally" scattering the primarchs across the galaxy. That's okay though, because I'll end up finding all those worlds as I conquer the galaxy anyway.

6) Next phase after this is a new age of peace and prosperity for mankind, where we won't need Space Marines or primarchs. Hmmm... I can't build in a limited lifespan as I don't know how long they need to last... So instead I need something a bit more elaborate...

7) Part of new age will also be the webway, which will get rid of three of the most powerful parts of the crusading Imperium - the Navigators, the Legions and the Primarchs. None of them are going to be happy about that, and they will do whatever they can to stop it, if they find out.

8) Instead of risking an unpredictable rebellion, I will engineer a smaller one. I know, I'll put Primarch XVI in charge of the others - he's popular, and ambitious, and smart. He'll figure out what I'm doing, and I've given him everything he needs to rebel in a manageable way, AND gotten rid of the psykers in the Legions who might have been able to foresee it. There's no way this can all go wrong, especially because I abolished all religion and any possible interaction with those DARK GODS that I tricked earlier...

9) Leave Great Crusade, start work on the webway.

10) :cuss, MAGNUS. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? THIS WAS ALL CAREFULLY BALANCED, YOU DINGUS. Russ, go and fetch Magnus. What an idiot. I need to explain my secret plan to him. Hope that doesn't mess with the whole Horus thing... anyway, I need to deal with this. Dorn, Malcador, hold my calls while I go back downstairs. Sigh, daemons everywhere...

11) ...Wait, WHAT? I've been in another realm, unable to monitor the actions of my underlings, and you've all completely thrown this plan down the toilet. Right, I'll fix this. Let's just wait for Horus and his... four, five... NINE?!... traitor Legions to come here. It's fine, I can still have a glorious death, Chaos is now quite clearly the biggest danger to all sentient life, and humanity will do pretty much anything I say.

12) Deal with Horus. Hey Malcador, hold my beer...

I get the impression that Goulding did not like the original verison and wanted to change it to this, his personal preference. I strongly dislike it. I can only now hope that it is left ambiguous so that we can each take our own read on events.

If anything, it makes his later claims that he aimed for ambiguous portrayal of the Emperor in the course of Heresy suspect, because what we have gotten so far fits this completely.

 

I dislike dishonesty. I might not like this interpretation at all, but if you are going to go with it, just go with.

This has not always been the case. The start of the series seemed to stick more to the original senario. For example in Horus Rising Horus is encouraging his marines to prepare for the end of the crusade and the peaceful life that will follow. In Deliverance Lost the twenty primarch rooms on terra are revealed etc. The above agenda does seem to have been pushed to the fore when Goulding took over the direction of the series, the absolute worst example being this piece, written by himself!. I do think he improved many aspects mind, such as tightening up all the discrepancies between books etc. I disagree about them just going with the above interpretation. Better to leave it ambiguous then everyone can take what they prefer from it.

[bluntblade]

I'm still going with the "Malcador's comforting lie" interpretation

[MrDarth151]

 

 

 

OK, I found it. In this thread on 2016-12-06:

 

On a personal opinion level, I don't see how anyone can say the Emperor made bad decisions. He had a plan so complex that human minds can't comprehend it, and then Chaos threw the plan off-centre, and he never managed to recover, or things were done in his name that ended up ruining the plan.

Maybe, MAYBE, it was something like this?

1) So, I need to help mankind ascend. The way I do that is by unifying the Imperium, removing the need for warp travel and then dying gloriously. That's my divine plan, I move in mysterious ways etc.

2) First, unify Terra, except my Custodian Guard are too valuable and too few to do it quickly. Create army of gene-spliced barbarian Thunder Warriors.

3) Terra is unified. Have Custodians kill off key elements of Thunder Legion, rest will eventually die because I didn't build them to last.

4) Reconquer galaxy. Going to need to be in about 20 places at once for this, so create post-human primarch generals to lead my armies of transhuman Space Marines. Give them all unique traits to add variety and specialisations.

5) Make deal with UNKNOWABLE GODS OF DARKNESS. Part of the deal involves "accidentally" scattering the primarchs across the galaxy. That's okay though, because I'll end up finding all those worlds as I conquer the galaxy anyway.

6) Next phase after this is a new age of peace and prosperity for mankind, where we won't need Space Marines or primarchs. Hmmm... I can't build in a limited lifespan as I don't know how long they need to last... So instead I need something a bit more elaborate...

7) Part of new age will also be the webway, which will get rid of three of the most powerful parts of the crusading Imperium - the Navigators, the Legions and the Primarchs. None of them are going to be happy about that, and they will do whatever they can to stop it, if they find out.

8) Instead of risking an unpredictable rebellion, I will engineer a smaller one. I know, I'll put Primarch XVI in charge of the others - he's popular, and ambitious, and smart. He'll figure out what I'm doing, and I've given him everything he needs to rebel in a manageable way, AND gotten rid of the psykers in the Legions who might have been able to foresee it. There's no way this can all go wrong, especially because I abolished all religion and any possible interaction with those DARK GODS that I tricked earlier...

9) Leave Great Crusade, start work on the webway.

10) :cuss, MAGNUS. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? THIS WAS ALL CAREFULLY BALANCED, YOU DINGUS. Russ, go and fetch Magnus. What an idiot. I need to explain my secret plan to him. Hope that doesn't mess with the whole Horus thing... anyway, I need to deal with this. Dorn, Malcador, hold my calls while I go back downstairs. Sigh, daemons everywhere...

11) ...Wait, WHAT? I've been in another realm, unable to monitor the actions of my underlings, and you've all completely thrown this plan down the toilet. Right, I'll fix this. Let's just wait for Horus and his... four, five... NINE?!... traitor Legions to come here. It's fine, I can still have a glorious death, Chaos is now quite clearly the biggest danger to all sentient life, and humanity will do pretty much anything I say.

12) Deal with Horus. Hey Malcador, hold my beer...

I get the impression that Goulding did not like the original verison and wanted to change it to this, his personal preference. I strongly dislike it. I can only now hope that it is left ambiguous so that we can each take our own read on events.

 

If anything, it makes his later claims that he aimed for ambiguous portrayal of the Emperor in the course of Heresy suspect, because what we have gotten so far fits this completely.

 

I dislike dishonesty. I might not like this interpretation at all, but if you are going to go with it, just go with.

This has not always been the case. The start of the series seemed to stick more to the original senario. For example in Horus Rising Horus is encouraging his marines to prepare for the end of the crusade and the peaceful life that will follow. In Deliverance Lost the twenty primarch rooms on terra are revealed etc. The above agenda does seem to have been pushed to the fore when Goulding took over the direction of the series, the absoulte worst example being this peice, written by himself!. I do think he improved many aspects mind, such as tightning up all the descepances between books etc. I disagree about them just going with the above interpretation. Better to leave it ambiguous then everyone can take what they prefer from it.

 

 

I know that. I've read everything that has ever been published for Heresy, I'd like to think I am not that ignorant of it.

 

I cannot also claim to be unbiased, because to be perfectly frank, I find Goulding's interpretation of the events to be hugely detrimental to the idea of the Emperor of Mankind.

[animal310]

 

 

 

 

OK, I found it. In this thread on 2016-12-06:

 

 

 

 

 

On a personal opinion level, I don't see how anyone can say the Emperor made bad decisions. He had a plan so complex that human minds can't comprehend it, and then Chaos threw the plan off-centre, and he never managed to recover, or things were done in his name that ended up ruining the plan.

Maybe, MAYBE, it was something like this?

1) So, I need to help mankind ascend. The way I do that is by unifying the Imperium, removing the need for warp travel and then dying gloriously. That's my divine plan, I move in mysterious ways etc.

2) First, unify Terra, except my Custodian Guard are too valuable and too few to do it quickly. Create army of gene-spliced barbarian Thunder Warriors.

3) Terra is unified. Have Custodians kill off key elements of Thunder Legion, rest will eventually die because I didn't build them to last.

4) Reconquer galaxy. Going to need to be in about 20 places at once for this, so create post-human primarch generals to lead my armies of transhuman Space Marines. Give them all unique traits to add variety and specialisations.

5) Make deal with UNKNOWABLE GODS OF DARKNESS. Part of the deal involves "accidentally" scattering the primarchs across the galaxy. That's okay though, because I'll end up finding all those worlds as I conquer the galaxy anyway.

6) Next phase after this is a new age of peace and prosperity for mankind, where we won't need Space Marines or primarchs. Hmmm... I can't build in a limited lifespan as I don't know how long they need to last... So instead I need something a bit more elaborate...

7) Part of new age will also be the webway, which will get rid of three of the most powerful parts of the crusading Imperium - the Navigators, the Legions and the Primarchs. None of them are going to be happy about that, and they will do whatever they can to stop it, if they find out.

8) Instead of risking an unpredictable rebellion, I will engineer a smaller one. I know, I'll put Primarch XVI in charge of the others - he's popular, and ambitious, and smart. He'll figure out what I'm doing, and I've given him everything he needs to rebel in a manageable way, AND gotten rid of the psykers in the Legions who might have been able to foresee it. There's no way this can all go wrong, especially because I abolished all religion and any possible interaction with those DARK GODS that I tricked earlier...

9) Leave Great Crusade, start work on the webway.

10) :cuss, MAGNUS. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? THIS WAS ALL CAREFULLY BALANCED, YOU DINGUS. Russ, go and fetch Magnus. What an idiot. I need to explain my secret plan to him. Hope that doesn't mess with the whole Horus thing... anyway, I need to deal with this. Dorn, Malcador, hold my calls while I go back downstairs. Sigh, daemons everywhere...

11) ...Wait, WHAT? I've been in another realm, unable to monitor the actions of my underlings, and you've all completely thrown this plan down the toilet. Right, I'll fix this. Let's just wait for Horus and his... four, five... NINE?!... traitor Legions to come here. It's fine, I can still have a glorious death, Chaos is now quite clearly the biggest danger to all sentient life, and humanity will do pretty much anything I say.

12) Deal with Horus. Hey Malcador, hold my beer...

I get the impression that Goulding did not like the original verison and wanted to change it to this, his personal preference. I strongly dislike it. I can only now hope that it is left ambiguous so that we can each take our own read on events.

If anything, it makes his later claims that he aimed for ambiguous portrayal of the Emperor in the course of Heresy suspect, because what we have gotten so far fits this completely.

 

I dislike dishonesty. I might not like this interpretation at all, but if you are going to go with it, just go with.

This has not always been the case. The start of the series seemed to stick more to the original senario. For example in Horus Rising Horus is encouraging his marines to prepare for the end of the crusade and the peaceful life that will follow. In Deliverance Lost the twenty primarch rooms on terra are revealed etc. The above agenda does seem to have been pushed to the fore when Goulding took over the direction of the series, the absoulte worst example being this peice, written by himself!. I do think he improved many aspects mind, such as tightning up all the descepances between books etc. I disagree about them just going with the above interpretation. Better to leave it ambiguous then everyone can take what they prefer from it.

I know that. I've read everything that has ever been published for Heresy, I'd like to think I am not that ignorant of it.

 

I cannot also claim to be unbiased, because to be perfectly frank, I find Goulding's interpretation of the events to be hugely detrimental to the idea of the Emperor of Mankind.

I never suggested you didn’t know, i was merely ruminating on the changes in direction that occurred under Goulding.

 

I agree that his interpretation of the Emperor is very damaging to the setting.

[Indefragable]

Please please please snip multi level quotes.

[Ascanius]

I don't understand the meaning of expressions like "damaging to the character of the Emperor", really.

 

Did you think the Emperor should be cool, powerful, and successful? Admirable? He was introduced as a being who existed as little more than a corpse suffering untold agonies on his throne, forever.

 

Back in 1987, this wasn't yet defined as being because he failed in his great work, and of course back then there were other possible causes. He might have, instead, been someone so greedy and grasping for power that he defied death itself to remain in control, despite the terrible cost.

 

(Arguably, por que no los dos? I bet he could have chosen to die rather than be enthroned.)

 

But once it was determined why he was in the condition he was in, then the story of the Emperor became one of hubristic failure - someone who challenged the order of the universe in the name of his grand vision, and was punishingly rebuked.

 

I don't agree with people who think the story of the Horus Heresy needs to be a story of the great, golden future of Mankind being snatched away at the last second. That's the story the Imperium tells itself, and they're a bunch of genocidal religious fanatics.

 

It makes sense to me if the Emperor's plan was always flawed, always took great risks in pursuit of what the Emperor believed to be a great reward.

 

It's a better tragedy, for my money, if the reason the Emperor doomed humanity to ten thousand years or more of darkness and terror - and that's on the peaceful, Imperial planets! - is because he fundamentally didn't understand the nature of the people he was trying to lead, and thought they could be dragged up the mountain to salvation with no real danger of falling over a cliff.

 

I mean, even if you want to admire the Emperor, it makes him look like more of a chump if his plan would have worked if it weren't for those pesky Chaos kids - because what did he think was gonna happen?

[Indefragable]

<snip>

 

I mean, even if you want to admire the Emperor, it makes him look like more of a chump if his plan would have worked if it weren't for those pesky Chaos kids - because what did he think was gonna happen?

 

That's why I think a certain level of mysterious and multiple interpretations is vital to the setting.

[MrDarth151]

I don't understand the meaning of expressions like "damaging to the character of the Emperor", really.

 

Do you really? Or is it more that you just don't agree with it? I have been rather clear on the matter.

 

Did you think the Emperor should be cool, powerful, and successful? Admirable?

 

I would like to not get the feeling that I'm smarter than thirty thousand years old demigod.

 

And really, the problem with The Emperor being admirable is that most of people who criticise the idea have very different perception of what admirable means than I do. Most of you would call a character I find admirable repugnant.

 

But once it was determined why he was in the condition he was in, then the story of the Emperor became one of hubristic failure - someone who challenged the order of the universe in the name of his grand vision, and was punishingly rebuked.

 

And thus is the huge, expansive universe of 40k reduced to a single concept of existential nihilism.

 

And you know what is the problem in that? Not the concept itself, but that 40k, as a story of existential nihilism, is just simply poorly done.

 

And we run into the good old problem of the fans trying their hardest to convince me that the universe I like actually sucks.

 

Also: Eight Deadly Words.

 

I don't agree with people who think the story of the Horus Heresy needs to be a story of the great, golden future of Mankind being snatched away at the last second.

 

That's your prerogative. And mine is to consider that to be a superior tragedy.

 

It makes sense to me if the Emperor's plan was always flawed, always took great risks in pursuit of what the Emperor believed to be a great reward.

 

The flaws in the Emperor's plan should not, however, be based in plan being stupid from perspective of our understanding. It works like that: I have read many book dealing with theory and practice of warfare, politics and economics. If there are things that are relatively basic mistakes from my perspective in the Emperor's plan, he stops being a believable character, and starts being a victim of idiot ball.

 

It's a better tragedy, for my money, if the reason the Emperor doomed humanity to ten thousand years or more of darkness and terror - and that's on the peaceful, Imperial planets! - is because he fundamentally didn't understand the nature of the people he was trying to lead, and thought they could be dragged up the mountain to salvation with no real danger of falling over a cliff.

 

So the real tragedy is the Emperor not having access to college level sociology books.

 

I continue to believe that the Emperor's flaws should stem from his humanity, not from essential qualities that each absolute ruler needs to be remotely good at this job.

[Mellow]

Is Malcador First Lord likely to be put into an anthology in written form?

[Primarch Son]

I just bought this mini-audio drama and I'm a little perplexed. I've never liked the Emperor, always thought he was an arrogant jackass and the ultimate dead beat dad, but Malcador's reveal is almost unbelievable. Even the Emperor can't be that bad and callous and my view of Malcador as a character that I liked, stemming from his appearances in the Garro audio dramas and books, took a big nose dive. I'm disappointed that everything I read about the Heresy and the Emperor's role seemed like an unintentional tragedy and yeah the Emperor more than played his role in reaping the Heresy, but I never saw it as his plan to foment rebellion at the start. I hope Malcador is lying really I do. Oh and is he really older than the Emperor and did he manipulate the Emperor the way it sounds in this? I'm a newbie so forgive me if I rambled.

[DarkChaplain]

First off, Malcador only says that the Emperor didn't go by that moniker before, not that he's older. In fact, that'd mean he'd have to be around 50,000 years old or thereabouts. 6000 wouldn't really cut it.

 

The audio drama isn't about giving you any real hard facts. It's about Malcador telling comforting lies, or half-truths, to an old friend on her deathbed. If Malcador's reveal is "almost unbelievable", then that's exactly because it isn't supposed to be taken at face value. Malcador is putting on a facade of control, when really, everything has been tumbling down from the start.

 

We know that Malcador had far-reaching plans of his own, and was establishing the Grey Knights in the background with the help of Garro and the Knights Errant. We know Malcador had various disagreements with the Emperor, and has been hoarding artifacts of human history, like the Rosetta Stone. We know he is recruiting the first Inquisitors. We know he has been nudging and maneuvering various Primarchs over the centuries, from Dorn in The Lightning Tower to Mortarion in Daemonology. While the Emperor went to fix up his Webway dreams, Malcador maintained the political stuff on Terra and the Imperium. He even went and sent assassins, knowing the Emperor didn't approve of it.

 

Malcador has always, always been firmly planted in the grey areas of the setting. Even Garro had doubts about his loyalties at some point early on. He is a creature of secrecy, shadow games and blatant manipulation. That is literally his character.

 

What we see here though is a more human Malcador, a character who is seeing the end coming ever closer and hates what it makes him do and the toll it takes on everything. We see the mask of control slip exactly because he is trying so hard to maintain it.

 

We can make efforts to try and discern what is likely more truth than lie, or more lie than truth, but it isn't supposed to give you straight answers. Heck, the drama itself references the Black Books from ForgeWorld, which are written from an in-universe perspective and supposed to be written in a propaganda sense. One of the writers is literally in the story, said to be working on his chronology.

 

Malcador comes out of this as a pretty pitiable creature, in my opinion. This is a man who has lived for millennia and worked towards a greater goal for the species, with his supposed Emperor being out of touch for years, fighting a losing war, just as Malcador is painfully aware of how everything has gone to hell over the past decade alone - while trying to salvage things, making up backup plans like the Grey Knights, the Inquisition, trying to save humanity from making the same mistakes again in the future by archiving and collecting pieces of our history. He has his spies everywhere, he hears more than even the Emperor at this point, I'd wager. While the Emperor is all ethereal in a sense, the Sigillite is firmly planted in reality, more pragmatic than the Emperor with his dreams. Malcador is consistently shown throughout the series as being a more cynical advisor to the Emperor. He disagrees on things. He makes suggestions to the contrary. He makes snide jokes about how the Primarchs should've been ladies instead.

 

But most importantly, he actually interacts with the characters in a way the Emperor hasn't really done in ages. He talks to the characters, not just the Primarchs but also the Legiones Astartes, and the mortals. He bonds with a lot of them on some level, whereas the Emperor is aloof and distant to most of his sons. He is at the same time more open to them as he is playing them up to reach their potential in one way or another. He argues. He also suffers for it. He sees everything he has worked towards falling down, people he knew fall to the worst the galaxy has to offer, and no matter what he tries, it'll never be enough. The Emperor on the other hand doesn't really seem to realize the immediate damage to humanity over the loss of the ideal future. That is not to say that the Emperor doesn't care, but that he has a different perspective from Malcador, who didn't leave disappointed sons behind, didn't walk into another dimension and bound himself to a throne just to keep the door shut with all his might and attention.

 

And yet he is the Sigillite. He knows more than probably any other man in existence, besides the Emperor. He is a figure larger than life, who has to maintain a veneer of control and wisdom, of the sage wizard who guides the heroes to paradise. But this story? This dying friend? It's personal. She knows many of his labors, his secrets, his communiques. So he is trying to put her at ease in a way that does not deny outright that things are bad, but by claiming that things are bad by design. That it was all as planned and that the great labor was not for nothing, had meaning, and those long, long lives of them both weren't wasted on hubris and suffering alone. He wants his friend to feel like she could go in peace, knowing that her century-long sacrifice helped, had a point, and wasn't useless in the end. But when she ends up dying, Malcador has to confront that he, himself, cannot die the same way. He cannot bow out being told those same comforting lies, because he knows, and his tally of sacrifices is millennia long.

 

It's not about the things he said to soothe a dying companion so much as it is about who Malcador himself is, what he's been through, what he is still sacrificing, and how it is breaking him. He is a vastly powerful man, not just in terms of his massive psychic abilities, but also in terms of sheer character and the way he can project confidence to others even as he himself is gripped by doubts and sorrow. This is the guy who will sacrifice himself to hold the fort atop the Golden Throne, just to buy the Emperor some time to fix things. But in the end, he may be one of the most powerful psykers in the galaxy, but he is also just a man, with more humanity than the Emperor appears to hold. And he will lie to protect it, while at the same time hurting himself through it.