Malcador: First Lord of the Imperium.

[mc warhammer]

re malcador and female primarchs, if it’s the part i’m thinking of, it read more like a genuine suggestion to balance out the fraternity by giving them sisters. it was the emperor who took it as a joke

[mc warhammer]

found it, it could be read as 20 brothers 20 sisters, all 20 are female or a mix amongst the 20

 

Malcador smiled. ‘You brothers – such a nest of rivalries. I warned him to make you sisters, that it would make things more civilised. He thought I was joking. I wasn’t.’

is that the bit you’re thinking of DC?

[Karhedron]

The implications behind the massive differences between the Emperors approach to the various Primarchs? Two Primarchs landed and were taken in to a slave population, rose against their masters, and were found by the Emperor on the eve of their final battle for freedom. The difference? Corax got offered the use of his Legion and the other Imperial forces in orbit, allowing them to decisively win the battle and conquer the lunar strongholds. Angron, on the other hand, had his Legion in orbit, they had a Crusade Fleet there, but instead of allowing the War Hounds to blood themselves in battle beside their Primarch and then recruit Angron's comrades the same way all other Primarchs were treated, he's instead kidnapped and immediately abandoned by the Emperor while his army dies leaderless on the planet below.

 

Does that seem like both Primarchs were treated the same upon discovery? Because it sounds to me like the Emperor was basically doing everything in his power to guarantee that Angron wanted him dead.

I thought the difference was that Nuceria had already accepted Imperial compliance. The Emperor didn't want to unleash the War Hounds on a world that had peacefully accepted compliance just to sate Angron's desire for revenge.

[bluntblade]

I believe AD-B or Farrer have acknowledged it's an iffy bit of canon to work around. He could, after all, have descended at the battle's outset and halted it.

[Mellow]

Hopefully Angrons Primarch Novel will cover it off in a decent way.

[MrDarth151]

Hopefully Angrons Primarch Novel will cover it off in a decent way.

 

It won't. Angron's story is a mess that doesn't fit ANY interpretation of the Emperor. Out of all the things HH changed, his backstory should have been retconned day one.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Only thing I can think of is that the Emperor had some inkling of how damaging the Butchers Nails were, and was almost ready to write Angron off as a loss, but certainly didn't want more insane, bloodthirsty gladiators than the one he absolutely had to take. 

[bluntblade]

That seems fair enough.

[Mellow]

Well He didn’t seem too interested in trying to remove them in Emperor of Mankind. Or was it that He couldn’t see s way of removing them without causing damage.

 

A broken Primarch is still a better tool for conquest than no Primarch I guess.

[mc warhammer]

Only thing I can think of is that the Emperor had some inkling of how damaging the Butchers Nails were, and was almost ready to write Angron off as a loss, but certainly didn't want more insane, bloodthirsty gladiators than the one he absolutely had to take.

but ended up with a legion of them anyway

 

would he have been obligated to take them on?

[Karhedron]

Well He didn’t seem too interested in trying to remove them in Emperor of Mankind. Or was it that He couldn’t see s way of removing them without causing damage.

 

A broken Primarch is still a better tool for conquest than no Primarch I guess.

That was the impression I got as well, removing the Nails would have been fatal. "Butchers Nails" and "Betrayer" certainly gave me this impression although I cannot remember if it is stated as a fact.

[MrDarth151]

 

Well He didn’t seem too interested in trying to remove them in Emperor of Mankind. Or was it that He couldn’t see s way of removing them without causing damage.

 

A broken Primarch is still a better tool for conquest than no Primarch I guess.

That was the impression I got as well, removing the Nails would have been fatal. "Butchers Nails" and "Betrayer" certainly gave me this impression although I cannot remember if it is stated as a fact.

 

 

It is stated as a fact. Multiple times.

 

My personal interpretation is that the Emperor hoped that Angron could somehow overcome the Nails, even if science pointed to the contrary. And I very highly oppose the idea that he viewed him only instrumentally, as a tool to achieve an end, at the same time. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Only thing I can think of is that the Emperor had some inkling of how damaging the Butchers Nails were, and was almost ready to write Angron off as a loss, but certainly didn't want more insane, bloodthirsty gladiators than the one he absolutely had to take.

but ended up with a legion of them anyway

 

would he have been obligated to take them on?

 

 

Angron would certainly have demanded that the implantation process be attempted on them, and yes, the World Eaters did eventually end up becoming that, but by that time the Emperor had returned to Terra, so he was no longer micromanaging everything, and probably would have taken a more forceful stance if he were still active at the time.

 

Secondly, the World Eaters had the Nails implanted, but they were from a Legion renowned for its brotherhood. The pit-slaves were basically raised from birth to only value killing, and nothing else. Maybe the first fragmented reports were dismissed by the Emperor as "well, Angron doesn't seem too bad, maybe the character of the Legion will balance out the Nails, and it won't be that bad."

[Karhedron]

My personal interpretation is that the Emperor hoped that Angron could somehow overcome the Nails, even if science pointed to the contrary. And I very highly oppose the idea that he viewed him only instrumentally, as a tool to achieve an end, at the same time.

But haven't recent novels pretty much established that the Emperor only ever viewed the Primarchs as tools, not sons? Valuable tools (in some cases) but tools nonetheless.

 

With words of light and fire, the Emperor had conferred with His returned primarch, the last of His finest creations.

A creation. Not a son.

The living Emperor had been an artful being, as skilled at hiding His thoughts as He was at reading those of others. What remained of Him was powerful beyond comprehension, but it lacked the subtlety He had had whilst He walked among men. Speaking with the Emperor had been like conversing with a star. The Emperor’s words burned him.

What hurt most deeply was what went unsaid.

The Emperor greeted Guilliman not as a father receives a son, but as a craftsmen who rediscovers a favourite tool that he thought lost. He behaved like a prisoner locked in an iron cage who is passed a rasp.

Guilliman had no illusions. He was not the man who brought the rasp; he was the rasp"

[Morovir]

To be fair, that was after 10,000 years of endless pain. That's got to wear away at anybody.

[MrDarth151]

 

My personal interpretation is that the Emperor hoped that Angron could somehow overcome the Nails, even if science pointed to the contrary. And I very highly oppose the idea that he viewed him only instrumentally, as a tool to achieve an end, at the same time.

But haven't recent novels pretty much established that the Emperor only ever viewed the Primarchs as tools, not sons? Valuable tools (in some cases) but tools nonetheless.

 

With words of light and fire, the Emperor had conferred with His returned primarch, the last of His finest creations.

A creation. Not a son.

The living Emperor had been an artful being, as skilled at hiding His thoughts as He was at reading those of others. What remained of Him was powerful beyond comprehension, but it lacked the subtlety He had had whilst He walked among men. Speaking with the Emperor had been like conversing with a star. The Emperor’s words burned him.

What hurt most deeply was what went unsaid.

The Emperor greeted Guilliman not as a father receives a son, but as a craftsmen who rediscovers a favourite tool that he thought lost. He behaved like a prisoner locked in an iron cage who is passed a rasp.

Guilliman had no illusions. He was not the man who brought the rasp; he was the rasp"

 

 

I, very deliberately, choose to view it as Roboute's perception of him, caused by his own misanthropy.

 

The idea of Emps being a ruthless tyrant that viewed Primarchs as tools doesn't work for me, because it makes Angron's and Lorgar's survivals very questionable... because they are horrible tools. Angron, especially, is outright detrimental. He turned a legion of competent warriors into crazed berserks, his loyalty is none existing, and he lack ability to follow orders. If the Emperor viewed Primarchs as tools, Angron would belong in a trash bin.

[Karhedron]

The idea of Emps being a ruthless tyrant that viewed Primarchs as tools doesn't work for me, because it makes Angron's and Lorgar's survivals very questionable... because they are horrible tools. Angron, especially, is outright detrimental. He turned a legion of competent warriors into crazed berserks, his loyalty is none existing, and he lack ability to follow orders. If the Emperor viewed Primarchs as tools, Angron would belong in a trash bin.

But isn't that the idea behind the "managed heresy" theory? It was a means to cull the most damaged an unstable Primarchs who would have little place once the Great Crusade drew to a close. Angron and Curze are obviously damaged goods and Perturabo seemed to have been consigned in that direction as well. What other Primarchs were envisaged as being potential liabilities is not clear. Lorgar is a bit of an oddball case.

 

I can understand that you don't like the idea (I am not mad about it myself) and I can also agree that in-universe POVs are subjective. But the theory is self-consistent. The GC required that the Galaxy be conquered in the minimum amount of time to keep Chaos and the various xenos species on the back-foot. This required the use of all possible resources. Angron and Curze may not have been pretty in their methods but at least they were efficient. Lorgar at least gave the appearance of efficiency after Monarchia.

 

Presumably the 2nd and 11th Primarchs did not fit into this mold. The Emperor claims in MoM that failure is a greater crime than treachery. Presumably the lost Primarchs failed big-time in some fashion.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

My personal interpretation is that the Emperor hoped that Angron could somehow overcome the Nails, even if science pointed to the contrary. And I very highly oppose the idea that he viewed him only instrumentally, as a tool to achieve an end, at the same time.

But haven't recent novels pretty much established that the Emperor only ever viewed the Primarchs as tools, not sons? Valuable tools (in some cases) but tools nonetheless.

 

With words of light and fire, the Emperor had conferred with His returned primarch, the last of His finest creations.

A creation. Not a son.

The living Emperor had been an artful being, as skilled at hiding His thoughts as He was at reading those of others. What remained of Him was powerful beyond comprehension, but it lacked the subtlety He had had whilst He walked among men. Speaking with the Emperor had been like conversing with a star. The Emperor’s words burned him.

What hurt most deeply was what went unsaid.

The Emperor greeted Guilliman not as a father receives a son, but as a craftsmen who rediscovers a favourite tool that he thought lost. He behaved like a prisoner locked in an iron cage who is passed a rasp.

Guilliman had no illusions. He was not the man who brought the rasp; he was the rasp"

 

 

The stuff that A D-B has written about Master of Mankind goes against that, though. We've been shown recent portrayals (like Perturabo, off the top of my head) where the Emperor has treated the Primarchs as valued sons. If we continue with the intended idea of "what the Emperor says will be changed by the perspective of the listener", then the scene with Guilliman can, as MrDarth151 pointed out, be explained by a combination of the massive shaking of Guillimans "faith" by seeing what has happened to his beloved Imperium since he has been gone, basically turning into the exact opposite of what was intended, combined with the Emperor being changed by 10,000 years of unending agony and watching what happened to the Imperium.

Now one of the Primarchs has returned, and not just any, but the one renowned across the fledgling Imperium for his statecraft and empire-building. The Emperor has ever been a pragmatist, teary reunions can wait until the Imperium isn't at imminent risk of being devoured whole by eldritch abominations. He finally has a subject that can follow instructions without tearfully crying out "Only the true messiah would deny that he is the messiah!", or isn't still stubbornly devoted to twiddling their thumbs making sure the Emperor himself is safe while the Imperium crumbles around him. I think it's understandable that his reaction is along the lines of "finally, for the first time in 10,000 years we can get   done! Ok, first thing I need you to do..." Combine that with the mental state of Guilliman, and the discussion isn't going to be one filled with paternal love.

[mc warhammer]

there are hints in dark imperium that guilliman's understanding of things may be incomplete

[Mellow]

 

My personal interpretation is that the Emperor hoped that Angron could somehow overcome the Nails, even if science pointed to the contrary. And I very highly oppose the idea that he viewed him only instrumentally, as a tool to achieve an end, at the same time. 

 

You are of course completely free to oppose the idea that He viewed His primarchs as tools. However it is clearly stated in Master of Mankind.

 

 

 

'A compromised primarch is still a primarch,' the Emperor mused, still distracted, 'What is it, Arkhan?'

 

Land hesitated. 'You are more sanguine than I would have imagined in this moment, even knowing of your holy detachment from emotion.'

 

'What would the alternative be?' The Emperor laid the bloodstained gloves on a nearby surgical trolley, where red-marked knives and other instruments lay wet and freshly used. 'That I might mourn the Twelfth as though it were my injured son, and I its grieving father?'

 

'Never that. Divine One.' Arkhan chose his words with care. 'Though some might expect that.' 

 

The Emperor unlocked the sealed vambraces of His hazard suit, then removed the surgical mask that had covered His face until now. 'It is not my son, Arkhan. None of them are. They are warlords, generals, tools bred to serve a purpose. Just as the Legions were bred to serve a purpose.'

 

For me that is proof enough that He viewed them as tools. It's stated earlier in the same passage that there was no way to remove the Nails as they had replaced whole sections of Angron's (repeatedly referred to as "The Twelfth") brain.

[SkimaskMohawk]

But he said that to the guy who tells the emperor that's literally exactly how he expected him to act in accordance with him being the omnissiah.

 

Like the whole bit with the emperor was that different people hear what they expected. He even tells Ra he projects the meat of the conversation into his brain

[Roomsky]

 

 

My personal interpretation is that the Emperor hoped that Angron could somehow overcome the Nails, even if science pointed to the contrary. And I very highly oppose the idea that he viewed him only instrumentally, as a tool to achieve an end, at the same time. 

 

You are of course completely free to oppose the idea that He viewed His primarchs as tools. However it is clearly stated in Master of Mankind.

 

 

 

'A compromised primarch is still a primarch,' the Emperor mused, still distracted, 'What is it, Arkhan?'

 

Land hesitated. 'You are more sanguine than I would have imagined in this moment, even knowing of your holy detachment from emotion.'

 

'What would the alternative be?' The Emperor laid the bloodstained gloves on a nearby surgical trolley, where red-marked knives and other instruments lay wet and freshly used. 'That I might mourn the Twelfth as though it were my injured son, and I its grieving father?'

 

'Never that. Divine One.' Arkhan chose his words with care. 'Though some might expect that.' 

 

The Emperor unlocked the sealed vambraces of His hazard suit, then removed the surgical mask that had covered His face until now. 'It is not my son, Arkhan. None of them are. They are warlords, generals, tools bred to serve a purpose. Just as the Legions were bred to serve a purpose.'

 

For me that is proof enough that He viewed them as tools. It's stated earlier in the same passage that there was no way to remove the Nails as they had replaced whole sections of Angron's (repeatedly referred to as "The Twelfth") brain.

 

 

You are certainly free to view the Emperor's personality in that scene as his "true" personality, but the entire theme of that book is that the Emperor is different things to different people. The manner in which he speaks to the Custodes and to Land are quite different, as is the way he speaks to his sons in other books. There is no greater evidence he is putting on a facade for everyone but Land, than he really does feel affection for his sons and downplays it in front of Custodes and Tech-Priests, or any other permutation. 

 

He seems to have a fairly poor view of things in Dark Imperium, but that is after 10,000 years of ceaseless vigilance and soul-shredding pain.

[Mellow]

You make it sound like all He did was treat everyone differently depending on how He felt at the time. Like some kind of Demigod that uses people for His own purposes!

[Roomsky]

You make it sound like all He did was treat everyone differently depending on how He felt at the time. Like some kind of Demigod that uses people for His own purposes!

 

Indeed, but that doesn't make what he said to Land objective. That he manipulates everyone around him is no great secret, but there's no indication that's born of contempt or dismissiveness. Whatever the Emperor's thoughts are on his cohort, his ever-changing personality is unlikely to communicate them. His personal feelings don't matter, that doesn't mean they don't exist.

[b1soul]

From MoM

 

"‘Can you remove it?’

‘Of course,’ the Emperor answered, still looking at the screens.

Arkhan did his best to hide his surprise. ‘Then, Divine One, why would you leave it there?’

‘This is why.’ The Emperor rested both hands on Angron’s head, one with the fingertips pressed to the primarch’s temple and cheek, the other pressed to the crown of his shaven head where the cable-tendrils joined the flesh and bone. The images on several screens immediately resolved to a clearer imprint of a brutishly dense skull miserable with crude cybernetics and the bone-scarring of powerful surgical laser cuts.

‘Do you see?’ the Emperor asked.

Arkhan saw. The tendrils were sunk deep, rooted in the meat of the brain, threaded to the nervous system, and down in roughly serpentine coils around the spinal column. Every movement must have been agony for the primarch, feeding back into the base emotions of anger and spite.

Worse, the brain’s limbic lobe and insular cortex were more than just savaged by the pain engine’s insertion; they had been surgically attacked and removed even before implantation. The device hammered into his skull hadn’t ruined those sections of the brain – it had replaced them. Ugly black cybernetics showed on the internal scans, in place of entire sections of the primarch’s brain tissue.

‘They are the only thing keeping him alive,’ Arkhan said.