Malcador: First Lord of the Imperium.

[bluntblade]

This arguably builds on something that had come before; Vel Kheredur distinguishes between the effect of Angron's implants and those in the World Eaters' heads, the former being far more damaging.

[MrDarth151]

Things!

 

 

But isn't that the idea behind the "managed heresy" theory? It was a means to cull the most damaged an unstable Primarchs who would have little place once the Great Crusade drew to a close. Angron and Curze are obviously damaged goods and Perturabo seemed to have been consigned in that direction as well. What other Primarchs were envisaged as being potential liabilities is not clear. Lorgar is a bit of an oddball case.

 

It is very heavily implied that the "managed heresy" would have culled them all, not just the unstable ones.

 

It's part of the reason I am so against the idea. The number of Primarchs who were actual issues is somewhat small. Engineered Heresy is bad idea on all accounts.

 

I mean... the fall of Word Bearers shows that Emps had no actual capability to engineer such a thing. Consider: Word Bearers landed on Cadia, a world at the entrance to the blood Eye of Terror. Word Bearers, at that point, do not have the capability to intercept the messages of Custodes, because that is a Chaos thing, and they ally themselves with Powers in the Warp after that.

 

So, Lorgar and crew land on a world next to the biggest Warp Rift in existence, come back short a Custodes, and several of their number, Argel Tal tells a lie so outrageous that it blows my mind that nothing happens. No follow up investigation. They don't even check the corpses.

 

The idea of a controlled rebellion is a nonsensical one from any practical consideration. Even assuming it would go as planned, billions would still die for relatively small gains. The Webway in no way makes the Legions obsolete. And it there was no way it would go as planned.

 

Even the assumption that all access to Chaos Gods is eliminated, which I remind you, is one of the basic assumptions the Emperor makes according to Laurie's outline of his plan, is utterly baseless, and any remotely competent person would not reach this conclusion, when every year there are new planets being found. The Emperor must have a degree of trust in his sons, otherwise he comes of as an idiot who is just really bad at his job. And you don't trust tools. You use tools.

 

I cannot stress this enough: I don't want Emps to be flawless in all aspects, I want him to have flaws steeming from his humanity, rather than his inability to lead and rule, because I find the latter to be largely detrimental to his character, if I am to believe he actually succeeded at task as impossible as the Great Crusade and subsequent unification of the galaxy.

 

Let's be frank here: The entire emotional crux of the Heresy lies in the Emperor being capable. Horus Heresy is tragic because there are things at stake that are lost. An endeavour doomed to fail from the start because the one leading it is not capable of achieving it even without outside interference has no emotional value. And that is the exact feeling the characterisation of the Emperor has been giving me off lately: A man so thoroughly mediocre he only succeeds because plot requires him too. 

 

 

I can understand that you don't like the idea (I am not mad about it myself) and I can also agree that in-universe POVs are subjective. But the theory is self-consistent. The GC required that the Galaxy be conquered in the minimum amount of time to keep Chaos and the various xenos species on the back-foot. This required the use of all possible resources. Angron and Curze may not have been pretty in their methods but at least they were efficient. Lorgar at least gave the appearance of efficiency after Monarchia.

 

Angron? Efficient? The very basis of confrontation between Angron and Russ was the fact that Angron was not efficient. He turned his legion into one that was good at suicidal charges to kill everything. It's like... he is a textbook definition of horrible commander. He doesn't listen to orders. His legion completely lack cohesion. He murders compliant planets for the hell of it, wasting valuable resources, both in terms of time and logistics.

 

Like, it is as clear as it gets that the twelve would be a superior force if Emps just let Angron die. That's the thing. Angron, by all principles of warfare I know of, is actively detrimental to the efforts of the Crusade.

 

 

 

You are of course completely free to oppose the idea that He viewed His primarchs as tools. However it is clearly stated in Master of Mankind.

 

'A compromised primarch is still a primarch,' the Emperor mused, still distracted, 'What is it, Arkhan?'

 

Land hesitated. 'You are more sanguine than I would have imagined in this moment, even knowing of your holy detachment from emotion.'

 

'What would the alternative be?' The Emperor laid the bloodstained gloves on a nearby surgical trolley, where red-marked knives and other instruments lay wet and freshly used. 'That I might mourn the Twelfth as though it were my injured son, and I its grieving father?'

 

'Never that. Divine One.' Arkhan chose his words with care. 'Though some might expect that.' 

 

The Emperor unlocked the sealed vambraces of His hazard suit, then removed the surgical mask that had covered His face until now. 'It is not my son, Arkhan. None of them are. They are warlords, generals, tools bred to serve a purpose. Just as the Legions were bred to serve a purpose.'

 

For me that is proof enough that He viewed them as tools. It's stated earlier in the same passage that there was no way to remove the Nails as they had replaced whole sections of Angron's (repeatedly referred to as "The Twelfth") brain.

 

Sigh.

 

You know, I quite like A D-B. He has very similar attitude to writing fiction as I do. I think he has the right ideas, even if his execution sometimes falls short in my eyes.

 

Like, you know. Portraying the Emperor is ambiguous manner in Master of Mankind.

 

The man is on this forum. He repeated god knows how many times that the MoM portrayal is suppose to ambiguous, that people hear what they want to hear when the Emperor speaks, he literally added that to the author's notes at the end of that book.

 

And people STILL argue that what is presented in that book is somehow definitive showing of the Emperor, and unconditionally true.

 

My main criticism of how he has written Emps in that book is that said portrayal was not ambiguous enough, and that he should have made a stronger point if he wanted to preserve that intention, and every time someone brings it up as evidence that this is totally, without a doubt, how the Emperor is, I feel vindicated in making that criticism.

 

I will consider my interpretation valid for now.

[Mellow]

If you can provide me with the quote that shows The Emperor being compassionate to His primarchs then I will take another look and be happy to amend my opinion accordingly.

[Roomsky]

A choice excerpt, but most of the prologue of Wolfsbane fits the bill:

 

"Sensing his son's resentment the Emperor rested a hand on Horus' shoulder. The touch sent shivers into Horus' soul. Loving devotion welled in his hearts that he could not deny, try as he might.

'I understand your disappointment,' the Emperor said, amused. 'You and I have fought side by side for years. It is natural for you to feel this…' The Emperor's humour grew. Horus basked in it like he would the sunlight, even as it burned him. '…sibling rivalry. But I need him. We need him. He was made by me as you were. He is a brother for you, if you like. Brotherly competition is to be encouraged, because it will drive you on to greater efforts.'

The Emperor required Horus to look at Him, so Horus did."

[DarkChaplain]

Promethean Sun also has various sections of the Emperor being very compassionate with Vulkan, praising him for his humanity and humility, and even keeping tabs on him during the late Great Crusade when his compassion wavers a bit, nudging him back on track.

[Scribe]

So, they hear or feel what they expect, or he wants them to feel.

 

No problem.

[bluntblade]

The Khan feels awkwardness from the Emperor, which hardly seems like a perception the Emperor would want His son to have of Him.

[Scribe]

The Khan feels awkwardness from the Emperor, which hardly seems like a perception the Emperor would want His son to have of Him.

 

But may be what Khan FEELS or expects of himself.

 

I'm sure if the Emperor REALLY wanted Khan to feel something, Khan would feel it.

[animal310]

Mrdarth151 sums it up perfectly.

[Lord_Caerolion]

If you can provide me with the quote that shows The Emperor being compassionate to His primarchs then I will take another look and be happy to amend my opinion accordingly.

 

From the end of Perturabo:

 

Perturabo cried out in unabashed joy. Finally, he felt acceptance without caveat. Love radiated from the Emperor for his found son. Perturabo basked in it. For the first time, he felt a sense of true belonging.

[mc warhammer]

there’s a reference or two to the emperor looking upon his sons with sad eyes, which implies some level of compassion

[b1soul]

@MrDarth151

 

"And people STILL argue that what is presented in that book [MoM] is somehow definitive showing of the Emperor, and unconditionally true."

 

I honestly don't think anyone has made that argument...

 

People have said MoM generally portrays the Emp as a species survivalist from the perspective of characters who interact with the Emp. People understand that by its very nature, MoM's portrayal of the Emp is not absolute. In MoM, we get the perspectives of the likes of a Custodes Tribune and a Mechanicum Magos...but what would a very kind, humanitarian character feel and hear when conversing with the Emp? There's obviously room for flexibility and mystery even within MoM's internal framework.

 

However, some people are OK with the harsher aspects of MoM's portrayal and wouldn't mind future portrayals consistent with such

[Lord_Caerolion]

@MrDarth151

 

"And people STILL argue that what is presented in that book [MoM] is somehow definitive showing of the Emperor, and unconditionally true."

 

I honestly don't think anyone has made that argument...

 

People have said MoM generally portrays the Emp as a species survivalist from the perspective of several characters who interact with the Emp. People understand that by its very nature, MoM's portrayal of the Emp is not absolute. There's room for flexibility and mystery.

 

However, some people are OK with the harsher aspects of MoM's portrayal and wouldn't mind future portrayals consistent with such

 

Except for the fact that Mellow is outright saying exactly that, on this very thread, quoted in the very reply you're quoting MrDarth151 on. "You are of course completely free to oppose the idea that He viewed His primarchs as tools. However it is clearly stated in Master of Mankind."

 

People are very much interpreting Master of Mankind as the definitive interpretation of the Emperor, for some reason completely disregarding everything else we've seen written about the Emperor in the same series.

[mc warhammer]

mellow isn't the only one. i've seen a few more on these boards and others.

there's validity to darth's point that many who read MoM without the "benefit" of ADB's crib notes, will come away thinking of the primarchs as nothing more than tools for the emperor

i'm not so sure that making it 'more ambiguous' in the writing would help. firstly, people are always going to have personal interpretations and those interpretations will always be varied no matter how plainly you think you might be stating something

secondly, i worry it might end up being too on-the-nose. if he's overly concerned with hammering a point home, it runs the risk of taking away from adb's style ... and i personally prefer his lighter touch where these things are concerned.

thirdly, MoM isn't the first and final say on the matter. i do think there's enough within the larger context of the HH stuff i've read to suggest there's more to it. and i expect even more is in the way

lastly, if that is someone's interpretation...it's not necessarily wrong

[b1soul]

Aye...if that's the case, hope they're a minority

 

Though based on how the Emp treats the primarchs, the "tools" theory makes a lot of sense to me, moreso than the "loving father"

[Lord_Caerolion]

Eh, as we've seen in the recent cases of the Emperor being written interacting with the Primarchs, there's definitely still love there. Sure, he's not going to win any Father of the Year awards, but he's certainly not only seeing them as tools.

[mc warhammer]

i feel that if he loved them, it’s love in a different way than what we experience. it certainly wasn’t built on nurture and bonding like a lot of ours is (except maybe horus).

 

on how varied people’s perceptions are of him, it seems to be case by case. sometimes he appears as someone’s subconscious dictates, but he can also manipulate them into seeing and hearing what he wants (as seen in the IA articles)

 

personally, i prefer to think of alpharius omegon’s ability to blend with their legion as an inheritance of that power rather than just being short primarchs

 

if the emp wants you to feel love towards him, i’m sure he can go some way to making that happen. lorgar seems to have a touch of that

[Scribe]

Eh, as we've seen in the recent cases of the Emperor being written interacting with the Primarchs, there's definitely still love there. Sure, he's not going to win any Father of the Year awards, but he's certainly not only seeing them as tools.

 

Love is a curious word to describe the emotion of a being who would unquestionably obliterate any one of these 'sons' if it meant the success of his plans.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Eh, as we've seen in the recent cases of the Emperor being written interacting with the Primarchs, there's definitely still love there. Sure, he's not going to win any Father of the Year awards, but he's certainly not only seeing them as tools.

 

Love is a curious word to describe the emotion of a being who would unquestionably obliterate any one of these 'sons' if it meant the success of his plans.

 

 

So then why did he hesitate with destroying Horus? There's obviously some reason, otherwise he'd just have spirit-bombed Horus the moment he saw him on the Vengeful Spirit.

[Scribe]

 

 

Eh, as we've seen in the recent cases of the Emperor being written interacting with the Primarchs, there's definitely still love there. Sure, he's not going to win any Father of the Year awards, but he's certainly not only seeing them as tools.

 

Love is a curious word to describe the emotion of a being who would unquestionably obliterate any one of these 'sons' if it meant the success of his plans.

 

 

So then why did he hesitate with destroying Horus? There's obviously some reason, otherwise he'd just have spirit-bombed Horus the moment he saw him on the Vengeful Spirit.

 

 

We already know that is going to be ret-conned. Get ready for it now.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I just can't see them entirely getting rid of the Emperors, well, if not love, then at least regard, for the Primarchs. There's been too much written about the Emperor loving the Primarchs in recent books for me to see them changing the final duel be along the lines of the Emperor saying "I never cared about you anyway", then psychically annihilating him.

[Scribe]

Here's the rub.

 

You are a 30000+ years old Godlike being.

 

You have orchestrated the conquest of the known galaxy.

 

You have ordered genocide, against not just Xenos, but your own race!

 

You have first hand knowledge of a realm beyond reason, and those that dwell there.

 

You have been betrayed, utterly, and your realm cast down.

 

Everything you have worked toward has been lost, irrecoverable.

 

The avatar of your foe stands before you, and you want to tell me human love stays your hand? You, a being who has destroyed millions of not billions with your orders and actions?

 

Sorry, there is no level of hand waving to get me to buy that.

[mc warhammer]

y’know how some people can’t throw out food even if it’s passed the use by date? maybe it’s like that

[Lord_Caerolion]

Here's the rub.

 

You are a 30000+ years old Godlike being.

 

You have orchestrated the conquest of the known galaxy.

 

You have ordered genocide, against not just Xenos, but your own race!

 

You have first hand knowledge of a realm beyond reason, and those that dwell there.

 

You have been betrayed, utterly, and your realm cast down.

 

Everything you have worked toward has been lost, irrecoverable.

 

The avatar of your foe stands before you, and you want to tell me human love stays your hand? You, a being who has destroyed millions of not billions with your orders and actions?

 

Sorry, there is no level of hand waving to get me to buy that.

 

You've been a godlike being for 30,000 years. Finally, you decide to save humanity from itself, and create 20 beings that, for the first time in millennia, are actually capable of approaching your own level, rather than the brief, dim light of standard humanity compared to your own. In a horrific accident, they are scattered before you can fully bring them into the world, but you continue on regardless. In a stroke of luck, one of the very first planets you locate outside the Terran solar system is the home to one of these beings, still in his infancy. You take him under your wing, and raise him to be what you've always intended him to be. You fight side-by-side with your son on countless worlds, saving his life, he saving yours in turn. Other Primarchs are located, but none can truly match the bond between you and your first-found. After 30,000 years of loneliness and isolation, you finally have a son. At the height of his triumph, you name him Warmaster so that he may continue the great purpose you have bestowed upon him, to save humanity as you intended, while you return to Terra to see to more arcane purposes.

 

In your laboratory, things degrade. Your son turns against you, alongside 8 of his brothers. He turns your Imperium to ruin, besieging your Palace, and so in a last chance at saving things from ruination, you fight him. He is Chaos Incarnate, but you still see that glimmer of what he was. The one being that you could truly bond with in 30,000 years of existence. The one best hope for humanity, the pinnacle of your work, born from nothing but your genius so that humanity may reclaim its golden age. He was everything you had wanted, everything you had dreamed of, for millennia. If such a paragon can turn, can become what you see in front of you, might it be better that humanity not be destroyed utterly, to let a more deserving species claim its birthright? You've fought for 30,000 years against the darkness, and now your perfect son, the one who was meant to banish the dark alongside you, together, is consumed by it.

 

Then a normal man, one amongst trillions, comes in. He is nothing compared to the abomination before you, and still he fights. He reminds you of the spark that you fight for. There is still hope, and in reminding you of that, it extinguishes the hope you have for Horus. As Horus annihilates the soldier before you, you annihilate him in turn, and consign yourself to fighting for 30,000 years more.

[Grand Master Laertes]

Here's the rub.

 

You are a 30000+ years old Godlike being.

 

You have orchestrated the conquest of the known galaxy.

 

You have ordered genocide, against not just Xenos, but your own race!

 

You have first hand knowledge of a realm beyond reason, and those that dwell there.

 

You have been betrayed, utterly, and your realm cast down.

 

Everything you have worked toward has been lost, irrecoverable.

 

The avatar of your foe stands before you, and you want to tell me human love stays your hand? You, a being who has destroyed millions of not billions with your orders and actions?

 

Sorry, there is no level of hand waving to get me to buy that.

 

Why? Actually, it is extremely realistic. Even Hitler, which is the inventor of modern holocaust, spared a Jew (which, for him was the enemy, the abomination) because he had been his former commanding officer in the Army and so Hitler felt a deep affection for him.

 

"The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic," especially if you intimately knew that one man and never even saw the faces o the other millions.