Thoughts from first seven games of the new codex

[superwill]

Hey guys!

 

Just wanted to share some thoughts from the first bunch of games I've played, hopefully they will be helpful in giving other people ideas. I know I've benefitted from reading some other people's experiences!

 

So far I've played games against:

Mechanicus (robots, Cawl and dunewalkers bubble-wrapped) - I won with a mostly jump army and a small contingent of sisters in support (Celestine, some troops and some seraphim)

Dark Angels (Deathwing heavy) - Won with DC, primaris and lots of characters

Dark Angels (Ravenwing heavy) - Won with killshot, 9 inceptors and characters switching from defense to offense

Eldar (fire prisms and a lot of wraithguard) - lost with a pretty all-round list

Astra Militarum (a bizarrely competitive melee heavy Catachan's list) - lost, very jump infantry heavy and failed lots of charges

Astra Militarum (parking lot - Baneblade and Leman Russ') - won with mech list

Orks (210 boys plus more stuff) - won with mech list

In my group we also have Dark Eldar, Tau, Deathwatch, GK, Sisters, Ultras, Nids, Custodes, Necrons and Wolves but I haven't played them yet with the new 'dex. But we prepare lists before we know who/what we'll verse so I've tried to keep things pretty TAC.

 

Here are the things that are noteworthy from my games so far:

 

- Predator killshots are absolutely insane. On one hand, in a single turn with only 3 predators (plus assistance from a LR) I was able to wipe a Baneblade and two Leman Russ' (including Pask) off the table and degrade a third Leman Russ from the other side of the map. That's ridiculous. On the other hand, I expected they would be completely unable to deal with hordes, but in the aforementioned Orks game (which was the most hordey game I think I've ever played, we even had to ditch terrain to make room for them all) they were still mowing down a mob a turn. I've been running them alongside a lieutenant, Land Raider Excelsior and Rhino Primaris and it's pretty much 1 shot=1 kill.

 

 

- Alongside the killshot, instead of the LRE and RP, I've run a jump captain (with the "smashypants" build lol) and jump lieutenant, who can either stay at home and help the preds, or fly out and smash face. Only run it once, but worked well enough and having the flexibility is great.

 

- Vanguard Veterans are not good. This makes me incredibly sad as they're maybe my favourite unit and I've got a great squad with individual little characters. I've run them in five out of seven games, and I've even done everything I can to make them work, giving them different auras and spending CPs on them like I'm their sugar-daddy. On paper the tradeoffs seem fairly reasonable - against DC you pay 2 less points, get +2 leadership (on the serg anyway), access to wargear like SS / dual pistols / relic blades etc, but the fact they only have 2 attacks is what really kills them.

 

- In contrast, I've only run the DC once but holy hell. It was against the DA Deathwing guy, and he was fielding an Excelsior which he made his warlord and gave a relic to, meaning it was -1 to hit and had a 5+ FNP. I think he expected it would be unkillable. The DC squad was 15 men but only 2 TH and a few power weapons so wasn't exactly decked out, yet they ripped that thing open like it was a poorly wrapped Christmas present. Granted, they had +1 attack from Unleash Rage, +1 attack from the Sanguinor who dropped nearby, +1 strength from a Sanguinary Priest, re-rolls of 1s to hit and wound from a cpt and lt, meaning each guys had 5/6 attacks, wounding on 2-4s with re-rolls. But then they even got charged by a squad of 10 deathwing terminators from orbit, only lost a few men and then swung back and killed the squad (using the 3CP strat to strike twice).

 

- In the same game I also debuted my Sanguinary Guard. They were utterly useless. I dropped them in on turn two, used DoA to charge a squad of Deathwing Terminators (no storm shields) and with 5 of them I failed to do a single point of damage. I was hoping they would get some buffs but by that stage several of my characters were dead (including the Sanguinor being one-shot by a distant Vindicare assassin... never seems to do anything when I field him lol) and next time I'm going to try to make sure they are getting bonus attacks and re-rolls, because that game they were 200 points of disappointment.

 

- The Veritas Vitae is a tricksy creature. I worked in 9CP to my list, went for the Vitae over the Angel's Wing, and only got a single CP back. Haven't taken it since, but if I ever have 8CPs or more I'll probably fork out the 1CP for it in addition to the Wing.

 

- Inceptors are RIDICULOUS. My signature move has become to drop a captain and lieutenant out of orbit where they can buff the conga line of either VV, ASM or DC and also buff inceptors at the same time. No joke, three supercharging plasma inceptors wiped TEN Ravenwing Black Knights...... It was one of the most brutal things I have ever been involved in. Yeah there was a little bit of luck by getting 5 shots with each Inceptor, but you make your own luck and when you're giving re-rolls to hit and wound, you're giving yourself a good chance. Every game they have been my heroes, and I run both plasma and bolter variety.

 

- Captain Smashypants hasn't quite lived up to his potential yet, his best effort was probably taking out four fancy IG horses (I think they were Forgeworld Death Corp of Krieg Riders or something?) Actually to be honest probably the best thing he did was making it into combat with Castellan Robots and stopping his 800 point unit (or something ridiculous) from shooting (after the inceptors cleared the bubble wrap I used DoA to get the captain up to the robots). He scooped on turn one haha. But man those robots hurt, almost killed smashypants on the overwatch, leaving him on one wound.

 

- Redemptor Dread has been fielded most games. He's fine, always does something, never pulls off big moves. He definitely helped in the Ork game of course, but for the most part he is just there coz I want a third elite choice and he's a shiny new toy.

 

- I really want to make the Chaplain work, but with the inceptor combo I just always want to take the captain. I've tried Lemartes, but was underwhelmed.

 

- 9" charges are hard to make. One game I dropped a priest with Angel's Wing, a Librarian with Quickening, another Librarian with Wings of Sanguinius, Lemartes with re-rolls to charge, a DC captain next to Lemartes so he also gets re-rolls and out of the five of them, the only one who made his charge was the Librarian with WoS. Even with re-rolls, the odds are below 50%, so you definitely can't expect to drop and make your charge just coz you have re-rolls.

 

- For Librarians I've run one or two every game. Blood Boil and Blood Lance are trash, very rarely will they be better than smite and I don't think I'll ever choose them to take up a slot. Even the Shield power is probably better if you've got a big infantry squad. WoS for me is better than Quickening. I love the bonus attacks, but I've been burned twice by failing my charge even with the +3" whereas WoS is easier to cast and you're pretty much guaranteed to make it in to combat. Unleash Rage is the main reason I've been rocking Libby's and I'll keep doing it.

 

- Troops are a bit of an issue. I never find them doing particularly much. The tac squad with a single heavy weapon is never worth 90 points. The intercessors are decent just coz they have a bit more range, are less disadvantaged by moving and have the bonuses to durability and damage output. Snipers never do anything for me and I don't think they deserve any more chances. Maybe the best option is to just take boltgun scouts with a HB or ML. At least it's cheap and you can always use the stratagems if the opportunity presents itself. We play maelstrom, and I don't think I've ever drawn "sit on this objective for a turn", which is really all our troops do apart from maybe intercessors. Ultimately, i reckon these guys are really just tax, but 270 points is a lot to pay for +2 command points over a different detachment. If you use allies I'd try and find your troops there. If not, decide how important those 2CPs are to you.

 

- One last thing I learned through the whole thing is that you can't charge a unit that isn't within 12". Some people probably knew that already, but I don't think I've ever tried to make charges more than 12" before so it's never really been an issue. Now, even with DoA or Quickening, I've discovered it doesn't matter whether you could technically reach the unit as you're not even allowed to pick them as a target. Hopefully someone reading this didn't know that and avoids making that mistake

 

Overall, I'm loving the new BA! +1 to wound in combat is incredible and I think we're very lucky to have such a cool, fluffy and significant Chapter Tactic! Good luck battle brothers, do the Emperor proud

Edited December 21, 2017 by superwill

[Slothysaur]

Awesome amounts of information here thanks! Just one question about that picture though; is that just a one-of or is that the amount of terrain all your games have used?

[brother_b]

Awesome amounts of information here thanks! Just one question about that picture though; is that just a one-of or is that the amount of terrain all your games have used?

I was thinking the same thing.

 

Also what's your record over those 7 games?

 

Edit: Looking at that picture again. R"Orks" Drift anyone?

Edited December 21, 2017 by brother_b

[Panzer]

Yeah that's extremely little terrain even for 7th edition standards and in 8th we need even more. ^^

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Thanks so muich for writing this up.

Great to get first hand info and analysis.

 

I had suspected as much about troops, but have yet to get a codex game in.

I think GW might have slashed price a bit too much on Inceptors to get them selling.

 

This is better than 50% chance on a 9" charge:

Descent of Angels: 2 CP Roll 3D6 for charge instead of 2D6.

http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/3_dice_rolls.htm#.WjtxbVWnE1I

 

I infer you may perhaps be having a hard time with your jump forces. 

Perhaps because you have such a very large standoff firebase?

Perhaps you are sending them forward without enough supporting bodies sometimes?

You have more table time than me, but it's a thought that occurs reading your report.

 

Sounds like you have a large gaming group. Get peeps to have a terrain making day or three.

Just adding some large hills of foamboard to put the ruins and such on will change up your meta.

Block up some of those firelanes!

As mentioned by others you are playing on planet bowling ball in the pic there =0.

 

Enjoyed the read! I value your info highly.

Again thanks for writing this up

[brother_b]

Thanks so muich for writing this up.

Great to get first hand info and analysis.

 

I had suspected as much about troops, but have yet to get a codex game in.

I think GW might have slashed price a bit too much on Inceptors to get them selling.

 

 

I was thinking the same thing on primaris marines, especially inceptors and aggressors, as a whole. They're really looking good after the codex drop.

[Karhedron]

Yeah that's extremely little terrain even for 7th edition standards and in 8th we need even more. ^^

Agreed, as a rule of thumb in our gaming group, we try to put at least 1 large LOS-blocking piece of terrain in every 2'x2' square. We then fill in gaps with smaller pieces of terrain. It makes a big difference to the games.

[Karhedron]

- Predator killshots are absolutely insane. On one hand, in a single turn with only 3 predators (plus assistance from a LR) I was able to wipe a Baneblade and two Leman Russ' (including Pask) off the table and degrade a third Leman Russ from the other side of the map.

Can anyone clarify for me please how this works as Killshots look to be nothing special as far as I can see. My understanding is that only one Predator is affected by the Stratagem, not the 2 flanking ones. Worse, since you can only use each Stratagem once per turn, you cannot use it again to buff the other Predators, even if they are in a mutually supporting position.

[Kappel]

 

- Predator killshots are absolutely insane. On one hand, in a single turn with only 3 predators (plus assistance from a LR) I was able to wipe a Baneblade and two Leman Russ' (including Pask) off the table and degrade a third Leman Russ from the other side of the map.

Can anyone clarify for me please how this works as Killshots look to be nothing special as far as I can see. My understanding is that only one Predator is affected by the Stratagem, not the 2 flanking ones. Worse, since you can only use each Stratagem once per turn, you cannot use it again to buff the other Predators, even if they are in a mutually supporting position.

 

This is also how I understand Killshot. It still makes that one decked out Lascannon predator lethal though. 

[superwill]

Thanks for the replies guys ☺️

 

Yeah that picture is a bit misleading, I meant to refer to it in the OP but forgot. We usually play with a lot more terrain, but my opponent really wanted to try run his mass-boyz list and during deployment he realized he couldn't actually fit all his boyz in his deployment zone and would never be able to get across the table, so we decided to remove a bunch of buildings and ruins and things. Definitely made for an interesting game to be outnumber about 20-1!

 

Hmmm....... if that is how killshot works it would definitely explain why it has been so amazing... and it would make sense. I've been playing it's all 3 get buffed and my opponents have assumed the same but I'll need to go read it again!

 

For the person asking what my W/L is like I'll go update the OP with the results next to each game, and maybe a brief description of what kind of list I was running.

 

Edit: checked online and sites like frontlinegaming, 1d4chan etc all seem to say it's all 3 that get it. I think the clincher is it says "predators' weapons" rather than "predator's weapons", which means the weapons of more than one predator. So yeah pretty sure all 3 get buffed!! It's incredible.

Edited December 21, 2017 by superwill

[Charlo]

I was wondering about killshot too, but that apostrophe being at the end does indeed suggest all three get buffed and would be thematic too as it's supposed to represent them all going ham on one target.

[Blackcadian]

Thank you for your excellent summary, this is very helpful, I wish everyone (or at least a lot more people would do that). I'll start this weekend as I'll be getting my first game in tomorrow! Common people let's get that Baal Think Tank going!

 

Also - do I need to buy 3 Preds now? :/

[Remtek]

Glad i see that plasma inceptors are doing very well, they seem incredible on paper. 

[Charlo]

Thank you for your excellent summary, this is very helpful, I wish everyone (or at least a lot more people would do that). I'll start this weekend as I'll be getting my first game in tomorrow! Common people let's get that Baal Think Tank going!

 

Also - do I need to buy 3 Preds now? :/

 

If you want the power to one shot big tanks then sure!

[Karhedron]

If it is all 3 Preds then that is pretty awesome for 1CP! I agree that the position of the apostrophe is the clincher here. 3 Autolas Predators with a cheap Lt to buff make quite a Spearhead detachment for ~600 points.

 

Although I still think that Captain Smashypants is pretty good for taking out large targets.

[superwill]

Thank you for your excellent summary, this is very helpful, I wish everyone (or at least a lot more people would do that). I'll start this weekend as I'll be getting my first game in tomorrow! Common people let's get that Baal Think Tank going!

 

Also - do I need to buy 3 Preds now? :/

Against an unsuspecting opponent, and/or if I go first, the killshot is amazing. But you really do have to build around it, not just taking the three preds but preferably a couple of sources of re-rolls too. It means that if the opponent blows up one of your predators before your turn, a big part of your strategy is gone. Could go for four predators, but that's even more of an investment.

 

The game against Ravenwing I lost a predator before my first turn and never got to kill shot, and if the inceptors hadn't bailed me out I would've been in trouble.

 

I wouldn't say preds are a must have now or anything quite that extreme But if you want a mech list they're definitely a strong inclusion! If there was any one unit I am considering "must include" in my armies now, it's inceptors.

[swordofmandulis]

maybe its just me, but the wording of the stratagem really sounds like it should just be the one predator, and just how strong all 3 would be for 1 CP also makes me feel like that.

 

I'm not saying I'm right, but its just the feeling I have. I'm guessing it hasn't been clarified in FAQ yet but it definitely should be.

[Brother-Captain Lucius]

You say the Vanguard disappointed you because they only have 2 attacks, why don't you give them twin chainswords? I did that with my unit and they chop through stuff, both those and Reivers are fantastic choices in BA now I think. I'm not too sold on DC their LD7 can really knock them down!

[Panzer]

I'll check the stratagem in the german codex once I'm home. Maybe it's more clearly worded there.

[Karhedron]

To be fair, for 1CP Eldar have a stratagem that grants 2 Fire Prisms rerolls to hit and wound and only requires LOS between them rather than proximity. +1 to Wound and +1 damage isn't really so overpowering, even for 3 tanks when you consider they have to be within a 12" bubble, it only works against vehicles and MCs and the whole combo costs over 500 points for loadouts that are actually effective against vehicles and MCs. A pair of Fire Prisms can be had for just over 300 points.

[Kallas]

To be fair, for 1CP Eldar have a stratagem that grants 2 Fire Prisms rerolls to hit and wound and only requires LOS between them rather than proximity. +1 to Wound and +1 damage isn't really so overpowering, even for 3 tanks when you consider they have to be within a 12" bubble, it only works against vehicles and MCs and the whole combo costs over 500 points for loadouts that are actually effective against vehicles and MCs. A pair of Fire Prisms can be had for just over 300 points.

And don't forget one Predator being knocked out (assuming you have three) shuts down the Stratagem. I mean, hell, even stripping wounds and dropping their accuracy is enough to take some of the teeth out of it.

 

It's something to build around, and it's damn effective (and efficient) but Marines kind of need that - our tanks don't get to double tap like Fire Prisms or Leman Russ. They're not particularly cheap for their output (4 Lascannons for 200 odd points on a Rhino hull) so Killshot kicking their damage up is pretty reasonable, when they're also counterable.

I mean, hell, even stripping wounds and dropping their accuracy is enough to take some of the teeth out of it.

[Morticon]

With the apostrophe where it is in the English dex, it is definitely all three.  

 

[Arkhanist]

It's also the same apostrophe placement for the same strat for codex marines, death guard and chaos marines so it's not a one-off typo. RAW I agree it's definitely all 3, which is much more effective than I thought!

 

There's also the old predator squadron 'killshot' rule: "whilst this unit includes 3 predators, every Predator in the unit has monster hunter and tank hunter". So it's not without precedent that killshot buffs all three ;)

[Panzer]

Yeah it's VERY clearly all three in the german translation as well.

[Riot Earp]

It is an good option for your alphastrike. If one dies you have at least two preds who can dish out damage. What would be your favorite loadout for killshotpreds?