Are Intercessors a better Troops choice than Grey Hunters?

[Havok13]

I keep hearing the grey hunters are the best troop choice, and while I agree due to upgrade choices available, I think intercessors are much better for the points cost. The fact they get an extra wound and attack each, then the -1 on the bolt rifle as well as increased range. Doing the math hammer for the points and sustainability they are the best current choice.

 

Opinions......

[Guest]

The grey hunters are very well rounded. They all offer bolter, chainswords, bolt pistols for a cheap price.

 

You can have 10x GH with a WG, 2x power swords, 1 plasma pistol, 2 plasma guns for 12 pts less than 10 Intercessors and 1 power sword. The intercessors are so limited on options they are inflexible. You unit run into a sudden tank? Overcharge plasmas and hope you don't roll a 1. You tun into a melee heavy army? 16 attacks and 2 power swords plus shooting in melee will probably do them in. Intercessors lack these options and are too restricted as a rock paper scissors like scenario.

 

Edit: that said if Intercessors ever get the ability to add specialty weapons then they become the better choice in all aspects.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Caldersson

[Karhedron]

+5ppm for double the durability, improved leadership and a better gun. The problem with Intercessors is that there is a lot of multi-wound weaponry out there which makes their 2 wounds less valuable than they ought to be.

 

I have some Hellblasters in my army and they are really working out well for me, particularly when they accompany Bjorn for rerolls. For regular Troops though I think I will be sticking with my Grey Hunters for the time being. The flexibility and ability to embark on cheap Transports edges them ahead in the lists I tend to make. I freely concede that this is based just on how I tend to field mine and it is look fairly close. If you are primarily playing a foot-slogging list and/or want some backfield objective campers, Intercessors are probably a better bet.

[Runefyre]

Also never underestimate Grey Hunter's ability to enter a cost effective (points and money-wise) transport, a razorback (or rhino as the case may be).

 

I have yet to see somebody bring more than one repulsor, and it's never transporting intercessors. Unless you outflank them they're forced to footslog almost every time.

[Deadnaughty]

No ability to use a good transport.

Their biggest cost is the extra wound which is ignored by the ever popular Plasma gun.

No special weapons (plasma or melta).

They don't have an extra attack over GH (chainswords for free) 

[Guest]

Well the chainswords is ignored by the fact the Primaris have 2 attacks.

[tetsuhau]

Well the chainswords is ignored by the fact the Primaris have 2 attacks.

Or are the Primaris' 2 attacks ignored by the free chainswords?

[NightHowler]

Maybe the two attacks the Primaris have and the Chainswords the Grey Hunters have just ignore each other. Would make parties incredibly awkward.

 

"Ragnar, could you tell Two-Attacks know that I'm not talking to him."

 

"Ragnar, let Chainswords know that I couldn't care less if they talk to me or not."

 

Ragnar turns to Njal and starts talking about the weather.

[Guest]

It boils down to this.

 

+1 wound, -1 AP bolter rifle (or assault 2 no AP bolt rifle) vs cheaper, 2 special ranged weapons, transport capable, 1 melee special weapon, and access to a wolf guard and all his capabilities

 

For me the GH takes the win, being able to easily transport and a more variable loadout makes the GH a hard Target to deal with.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Caldersson

[Kasper_Hawser]

It boils down to this.

 

+1 wound, -1 AP bolter rifle (or assault 2 no AP bolt rifle) vs cheaper, 2 special ranged weapons, transport capable, 1 melee special weapon, and access to a wolf guard and all his capabilities

 

For me the GH takes the win, being able to easily transport and a more variable loadout makes the GH a hard Target to deal with.

 

For all our preference for GH, i'm going to try intercessors in future as tough objective campers. Let the Grey Hunters and Blood Claws rush forward for the glory while the intercessors hold the line. Hopefully my opponent will ignore the 5 man intercessors squad as he deals with my GH and BC, right until the intercessors get in rapid fire range.

 

TLDR, by themselves they are weak. But together with the regular marines, they have potential. Hellblasters have nearly found their place in marine mix lists. I believe its possible for the rest as well.

[rgr_maddog]

I like both, Intercessors for deployment zone objective camping (trade transports and specials for wounds) and Hunters to rush forward with specials and trasports. 2 squads of Hunters and 1 of Intercessors seems to work well in a Battalion, while saving some points for elites.

[Araith]

I second Maddog on that.

 

As regards the point raised on multiple damage weapons, yes those effectively counter intercessor toughness, but it's more likely those weapons get turned to higher priority targets than those 5 intercessors.

Unless of course you're playing certain Mechanicum armies that sport all multiple damage weapons, but that's one possible foe.

[Thefallenjackal]

A fully upgraded GH squad is no match to a intercessor squad. But if you’re running a smaller game, even up to 1500 points, I think you want to put the bulk of your points into your elite units and max out squads of Wulfen, Aggressors, Wolf Guard anything, hellblasters etc. and keep you troop costs to a minimum. A apples to apples comparison of the two troops a 5 man squad of intercessors is the same cost as a 7 man squad of grey hunters.

 

With this basic comparison the intercessors have more wounds. When you want a squad to walk up the board (because you just used 3 CP’s to pop 2 squads of Wulfen and a squad of hellblasters right next to your enemy) they can take weapons that can shoot twice at 24” which increases their effective damage output over the grey hunters and if you need a squad or two to sit in your deployment and hold an objective or 2 you can take the Stalker bolt rifles with a 36” range and -2AP which is also more effective than the grey hunter squad.

 

If you do want to put more points into your troop choices then taking an upgraded GH/BC squad in a razorback or drop pod I would agree GH/BC are more effective. If you want to hold a squad in your deployment or walk up the table I would go with the intercessors.

[Havok13]

My thoughts are a 5 man GH choice with PG and PP is just short of the standard Intercessor squad. Against marines and inferior targets the Intercessors are much more resilient. Even though the bolt rifles are only ap -1, the seem to inflict more damage than the GH squad on average too. Dont get me wrong i love GH but i have not had a great deal of luck with them, their shooting is average (probably my rolling skills :) ) and even in close combat always seem to under-perform in current index form. My opponents are usually Primaris and when they are all sat together with the buffs to reroll this and that, i really struggle. Interesting enough i have found sitting back and out shooting to be more efficient with long fangs, Bjorn and WGBL than being a close combat oriented army.

[CaptainStabby]

I have a tough time seeing any use for Intercessors aside from deployment zone objective camping. GH flexibility plus transport availability makes them a clear winner in my mind, regardless of what math hammer says.

 

Walk up the board with Hellblasters + Bjorn tbh.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Just faced a full Imperial Fists Primaris list, filled to the brim with Intercessors, hellblasters, with only one Repulsor as transport, plus couple of Inceptors AND a couple of Reivers.

 

It was brutal. I admit my list was lacking in multi damage weapons, but regardless the net result is that I couldn't kill enough of his marching wall. I was using mainly melta and plasma on my Grey Hunters, but I couldn't make a big enough dent on his 4-5 Intercessor 5 man intercessor squads before his hellblasters cut down my response team. And he wasn't even using an apothecary.

 

Needless to say, I'm impressed with Intercessors now despite their inflexibility. They are definitely resistant towards 1 damage weapons like heavy bolters and twin assault cannon which most marines bring to deal with hordes, and their 30" threat range is more impressive than it seems.

 

As mentioned before in my previous post, the trick is HOW they best supplement an existing force. I'm leaning towards midfield/backfield objective campers while GH and BC in rhinos/razorbacks become the rapid response team.

[Deadnaughty]

Just faced a full Imperial Fists Primaris list, filled to the brim with Intercessors, hellblasters, with only one Repulsor as transport, plus couple of Inceptors AND a couple of Reivers.

 

It was brutal. I admit my list was lacking in multi damage weapons, but regardless the net result is that I couldn't kill enough of his marching wall. I was using mainly melta and plasma on my Grey Hunters, but I couldn't make a big enough dent on his 4-5 Intercessor 5 man intercessor squads before his hellblasters cut down my response team. And he wasn't even using an apothecary.

 

Needless to say, I'm impressed with Intercessors now despite their inflexibility. They are definitely resistant towards 1 damage weapons like heavy bolters and twin assault cannon which most marines bring to deal with hordes, and their 30" threat range is more impressive than it seems.

 

As mentioned before in my previous post, the trick is HOW they best supplement an existing force. I'm leaning towards midfield/backfield objective campers while GH and BC in rhinos/razorbacks become the rapid response team.

Why were you shooting Intercessors and not Hellblasters.

 

The key to beating Primaris is to get rid of the units that do actual damage (like Hellblasters) asap.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Because he kept them out of the way until the intercessors, inceptors and reivers dealt with my 3 Long Fangs squads. There was also too many terrain which turned out to be advantageous for him so that I had to move my fangs. My heavy bolter razorbacks tried to whittle them down but had a surprisingly hard time cutting them down to size.

 

Admittedly, I also made a tactical error trying to engage him in his turf. I should have pulled back all of my rhinos and forces and castled in my corner, forcing his hellblasters to cross open ground and whittle them down with my admittedly limited heavy weapons. that way i could also have responded fast and concentrate enough to kill the damn inceptors and reivers. and his intercessors did do a fair amount of damage to my Grey Hunters and rhinos.

 

On another note, 6 Blood claws including sergeant fighting 5 Reivers with CCW, turned out to be a bloody stalemate even with me getting the charge. Note to self: don't charge primaris without a power weapon. we just ended up grinding each other with him in the advantage as he had double the wounds.

 

All in all, I am now open enough to use intercessors.

[Havok13]

Because he kept them out of the way until the intercessors, inceptors and reivers dealt with my 3 Long Fangs squads. There was also too many terrain which turned out to be advantageous for him so that I had to move my fangs. My heavy bolter razorbacks tried to whittle them down but had a surprisingly hard time cutting them down to size.

 

Admittedly, I also made a tactical error trying to engage him in his turf. I should have pulled back all of my rhinos and forces and castled in my corner, forcing his hellblasters to cross open ground and whittle them down with my admittedly limited heavy weapons. that way i could also have responded fast and concentrate enough to kill the damn inceptors and reivers. and his intercessors did do a fair amount of damage to my Grey Hunters and rhinos.

 

On another note, 6 Blood claws including sergeant fighting 5 Reivers with CCW, turned out to be a bloody stalemate even with me getting the charge. Note to self: don't charge primaris without a power weapon. we just ended up grinding each other with him in the advantage as he had double the wounds.

 

All in all, I am now open enough to use intercessors.

I am finding it the same. Looking forward to a codex, and I'm more open to primarus depending on the fluff in the codex. Edited December 26, 2017 by Havok13

[Karack Blackstone]

So, I have six Veteran Primaris Intercessor Sergeants, still in boxes, waiting in the training halls to see how Space Wolves gain Primaris.

 

Don't get me wrong; if SW's get Primaris able to take even just a combat knife, then they become a very solid choice. Right now, even though I sadly have no games of 8th in yet, the perspective I have right now is that Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, and Intercessors, are all different purpose arrows in Hawkeye's proverbial quiver.

 

Please, by all means, let that sink in: we, as players, are gaining access to a different, and still useful, unit type that can fulfill a great firebase need for bolstering defense and supporting the charge and advance of the Grey Hunters and Blood Claws. If  I end up adding Intercessor squads, and I plan to, I would love to see how the advance of Grey Hunters and Blood Claws are best aided by having say, two GH packs advancing in Rhinos with an Intercessor pack in fire support and suppression position. Also, Grey Hunters, sitting in the backfield, with Intercessors and Long Fangs within fire support distance of each other, might be a really fun and effective way to bring the pain on any enemy units that make a push into my deployment zone.

 

So, for a quick summary of the above, why limit ourselves to just using Intercessors on the defense? Intercessors on the attack, especially a two GH pack with one Intercessor pack, providing an advance and mobile fire suppression unit, the Intercessors, with their best all-rounder weapon would seriously make the enemy think about the amount of pressure my units are moving up with, towards whatever my goal in game happens to be.

 

I personally think, if a game large enough to allow it, two separate three pack groups of one or two GH's, zero to one BC's, and one Intercessors, makes for a great backfield defense force, and, their equivalent for the advance, with the same choices available to make up the packs, GH's, BC's, Intercessors, is a much better long term solution.

 

If the backfield force needs range, give their Intercessor pack the longest range boltgun option they have access to; at the same time, I expect the advancing packs will need firepower. So, that Intercessor pack gets the highest rate of fire boltgun they can get. For mobile heavy fire support options, a Rifleman Dreadnought sounds pretty solid, with weapons varying to choice as far as the best option goes, depending, on the all rounder approach, if one is so inclined.

 

Anyway, I hope this helps.

 

Again:

- 1 to 2 GH's

- 0 to 1 BC's

- 1 Intercessors

 

With at least two of these groups as a base of fire, might truly aid a fight if they can be a wise consideration, long term.

 

I will wait and see, myself; as to the rest of you, please, realize that there are far more options now, thanks to the firm fact that SW's will get Intercessors. The options our Primaris will get however, that, is the rub.

[Schlitzaf]

I can show the math for those those curious, Primaris excel in mid-field Fire Support roles. Cheap as a 5 Man MSU with Double Plas, and equivalent level of firepower. The reasons is that rapid at 15” means a turn earlier you can rapid over regular 12”. And your no slouches in close combat either.

 

They are lackluster as backfield as they are primarily anti-infantry and 5 Shots your basically better off bringing a Heavy Bolter for Cheaper. What they replace or do replace is the 10 Man BolterBro/Fire Support Squads.

 

My own Black Templars have three variants on our Crusader Squad. 5 Man MSU Spec/Spec/Hvy, 6-4 Mid Field Fire Support and 7-6 (Or 7) Tide Squads. The 6-4 is most akin to a 10 Man Grey Hunter Squad. That setup is basically a worse 5 Man MSU Intercessor with BoltRifle.

 

However the the advantage of Grey Hunters lays instead with its ability to load up on cheap specials. You can have 4 Wolfsword, 7 Plasma Shots, 12 Bolter Attacks, 16 Regular Attacks, 10 Wounds, at 192 and Wolf Banner to save Command Points. Just for sake of comparison, two PowSword Intercessors have 6 PowSword*, 20 -Bolter and 16 Regular attack’s, 20 Wounds at 188. Now both sets up can flexible a bit but the two Scenerios are similar.

(For those those 6 Man Grey Hunter Squad for 137 with same Loadout barring 4 bodies compares to 94 point Intercessor is 4 FrostSword vs 3 PowSword, 5 Plasma and 4 Bolter vs 10 BotlRifle, 6 wounds vs 10 wounds and 6 Melee vs 8 Melee).

 

10 Man Grey Hunter Squad in this comparison actually beside wound counts come out ahead of the Intercessors where the 6 Wound does not considering you can nearly get 2-3 more Intercessors**. A good army would take to capitolize on these two differences. A more centered force using regulars while Intercessors shore up the flanks and provide cheap bodies to help once combat is joined.

 

*I forget if Wolf Intercessors can take PowSwords

**Barring Razor spam lists

[Karack Blackstone]

I can show the math for those those curious, Primaris excel in mid-field Fire Support roles. Cheap as a 5 Man MSU with Double Plas, and equivalent level of firepower. The reasons is that rapid at 15” means a turn earlier you can rapid over regular 12”. And your no slouches in close combat either.

 

They are lackluster as backfield as they are primarily anti-infantry and 5 Shots your basically better off bringing a Heavy Bolter for Cheaper. What they replace or do replace is the 10 Man BolterBro/Fire Support Squads.

 

My own Black Templars have three variants on our Crusader Squad. 5 Man MSU Spec/Spec/Hvy, 6-4 Mid Field Fire Support and 7-6 (Or 7) Tide Squads. The 6-4 is most akin to a 10 Man Grey Hunter Squad. That setup is basically a worse 5 Man MSU Intercessor with BoltRifle.

 

However the the advantage of Grey Hunters lays instead with its ability to load up on cheap specials. You can have 4 Wolfsword, 7 Plasma Shots, 12 Bolter Attacks, 16 Regular Attacks, 10 Wounds, at 192 and Wolf Banner to save Command Points. Just for sake of comparison, two PowSword Intercessors have 6 PowSword*, 20 -Bolter and 16 Regular attack’s, 20 Wounds at 188. Now both sets up can flexible a bit but the two Scenerios are similar.

(For those those 6 Man Grey Hunter Squad for 137 with same Loadout barring 4 bodies compares to 94 point Intercessor is 4 FrostSword vs 3 PowSword, 5 Plasma and 4 Bolter vs 10 BotlRifle, 6 wounds vs 10 wounds and 6 Melee vs 8 Melee).

 

10 Man Grey Hunter Squad in this comparison actually beside wound counts come out ahead of the Intercessors where the 6 Wound does not considering you can nearly get 2-3 more Intercessors**. A good army would take to capitolize on these two differences. A more centered force using regulars while Intercessors shore up the flanks and provide cheap bodies to help once combat is joined.

 

*I forget if Wolf Intercessors can take PowSwords

**Barring Razor spam lists

 

Schlitzaf, the Space Wolves Codex is not out yet; once it is, then we can answer your first * point, at the bottom of your post.

 

I personally feel that a far more solid Troops choice base would be at least 30 Grey Hunters, two 6 strong Long Fang packs, and either a SkyClaw or Blood Claw pack, to round out the ground work of one's infantry forces. I personally think the Razorspam list concept is great, there's just never enough wounds in any single pack to withstand dedicated fire.

[Schlitzaf]

I’d 2 Packs of 10 Man Grey Hunters and 2 packs of Intercessors personally

[Karack Blackstone]

I’d 2 Packs of 10 Man Grey Hunters and 2 packs of Intercessors personally

 

Apologies, my 7th Ed. thinking slipped back into gear.

 

Yes, if one has a core of at least four packs, two full Grey Hunter packs, and two full Intercessor packs, the grouping of the units into one of each, supporting the other, seems wisest.

I am currently theorizing to myself mentally, and would love some feedback, on what people think of the above mentioned thought process I had. Would the unit selections of:

 

At least two groups of the following:

- one or two Grey Hunter packs

- zero or one Blood Claw / SkyClaw / SwiftClaw packs

- one Intercessor pack

 

With each either all rounder, or with a specific mission, depending upon the player's choice, make sense, too? If not, I need to know why, because, at least right now, this seems like a perfectly viable way to build a force. A Solid Troops section in a larger game can help carry the day; then again, so can a great many other things, so, as always, feedback welcome.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I don't really like how grey hunters look next to primaris (I like them, its just my marines look so small next to the big guys). My hope is that they stay right were they are now.

 

A full kitted out pack of grey hunters is better imo because of the specials, rhino access, power weapons, and standard. That said a squad of five intercessors is better than a small grey hunter squad because of the better base weapons and two wounds. Admittedly I don't see the razorback adding to much value to the small squad of hunters because the intercessors do unlock it (even if they can't embark) and its tough use the razor as an effective transport and leverage its turret.

 

At some point I do plan on making a Primaris chapter and it will probably be wolves, it'll just be more of stand alone project.