Options for Brigade Detachments

[Emissary]

Honestly, I think that the BA can do a Brigade and do it well.  I'm not sure how many signature units you feel would be necessary, but I do think you can create a BA brigade at 2,000 points that is reasonably fluffy for the chapter.  

 

For example, here is what I'm currently using:

 

Captain with Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer and Master-Crafted Boltgun (Artisan of War and maybe Angel's Wing or Veritas Vitae)

Captain with Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer and Master-Crafted Boltgun (Hammer of Baal)

Lemartes

5 Intercessors with Bolt Rifles, Auxilary Grenade Launcher, Sergeant Chainsword

5 Intercessors with Bolt Rifles, Auxilary Grenade Launcher, Sergeant Chainsword

5 Scouts with Bolt Pistols and Combat Knives, Sergeant Chainsword

5 Scouts with Bolt Pistols and Combat Knives, Sergeant Chainsword

5 Scouts with Bolt Pistols and Combat Knives, Sergeant Chainsword

5 Scouts with Bolt Pistols and Combat Knives, Sergeant Chainsword

10 Death Company with Jump Packs, 2 Thunder Hammers and 8 Boltguns and Chainswords

Dreadnought with Twin Lascannon, Dreadnought Combat Weapon and Storm Bolter

Company Ancient with Boltgun

3 Scout Bikers with Twin Boltguns, Combat Knives, Astartes Shotguns

3 Scout Bikers with Twin Boltguns, Combat Knives, Astartes Shotguns

3 Primaris Inceptors with Plasma Exterminators

Hunter with Skyspear Missile Launcher

5 Devastators with 2 Lascannons, 1 Heavy Bolter, 1 Missile Launcher, Sergeant Chainsword, Armorium Cherub

Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought with 2 Twin Lascannons

2000 points exactly

 

You can't take everything you want, but you can certainly use some nice stuff.  In my army above, you can replace the death company with a decent number of Sanguinary Guard or Vanguard Veterans.  You can also rotate in the BA dreads for the generic one I have.  You can put in a librarian for one of the captains or a Baal predator for the contemptor mortis.

 

Overall, scouts help with getting good troops selections and scout bikers for fast attack selections.  Both are fluffy for the BA as they have a ton of scouts post-devastation.  Also, both are good selections for the army.  Scouts allow you to limit where they can drop deep strikers and can get you early charges that are surprisingly decent.  The scout bikers are great bubble-wrap killers with 4 boltgun and 2 shotgun shots at 12" for each biker, then a potential charge with the combat knife. 

 

I do think that the brigade is something that is worth thinking about.  I know I've been chewing through a lot of command points so more is always good.  With 2 points for Death Visions of Sanguinius for a pair of captains, 2 points for Forlorn Fury for one captain and then maybe 1 more for a 2nd relic you're looking at spending 4-5 command points pregame.  Then 2 more for Decent of Angels, Only in Death Does Duty End and 1 more for Red Rampage, generic rerolls and Upon the Wings of Fire, you're looking at a lot of command point needs.  Getting as many as you can is a good thing IMO.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Emissary

[Are Verlo]

Re: DC vs VVS

Well, vs hordes they do just as good. Bolters and chainswords provide fantastic anti-horde. VVS can’t reach that ammount of S4 attacks

Edited December 26, 2017 by Are Verlo

[Fahlnor]

Re: DC vs VVS

Well, vs hordes they do just as good. Bolters and chainswords provide fantastic anti-horde. VVS can’t reach that ammount of S4 attacks

But then, VV benefit from the Red Thirst on all of their attacks, while DC lose it on their ranged attacks.

 

Situationally, VV can get more attacks, wounding more easily than Death Company.

 

I do want to add, though, that the fact we’re having this sort of back-and-forth is delightful - having a variety of options which are so clearly balanced that it’s hard to choose one over the other is exactly what I think the game should be about. Means that your list can focus less on efficiency and more on taking the models you think are coolest.

[Calistarius]

 

But with DC, Scouts and VVS/SG you can get them all stuck in turn 1. Even more if you use Mephiston in a pod for wings or just rush a regular liby dread or librarian with wings of sanguinus. That is one impressive turn 1

I'd be using Forlorn Fury on my Captain so not really a use for DC but yes you could have them hitting too but they're really underwhelming compared to VV.

It’s up to you and your play style. I dropped my Captain in and used DoA to charge Bjorn and some intercessors. It was a lot of fun. I’d save Forlorn Fury for the DC. Vanguard Vets have are the Swiss Army knife of combat units. They have a nice LD value and can be equipped for highly specific tasks. I still prefer to pay the 2 points more per model to gain an additional attack on the charge and a FNP, even at 6+. I’ll keep doing it until it’s no longer fun or successful. That’s not really what I started this thread for.

 

Thanks for pointing out my chainswords error. I’m glad I hadn’t done that yet.

[utilityzero]

I think the mistake is thinking CP are worth most of those stratagems. I don't use points on things like red rampage or visions of sanguinius. Instead of spending points to take brigade tax to get those stratagems just take Mephiston or Sanguinor or something.

[Calistarius]

Having used the strategems, I think they are worth it. The amount of bonus movement and flexibility alone means more to me than the aura buff from Sanguinor. The strategems also can’t be denied, and you don’t have to roll for them. I see your point, but my list building begins with what strategems I will utilize. If you’re not utilizing them then you’re missing out on what I think sets this book apart.

[Panzer]

You lose a lot of flexibility in list building when you go for a brigade for sure.

If it happens to be the list you wanted play anyway then go for it but if it's not I'd say going for a double battalion or possibly a slight soup with an AM battalion is the better approach to get a reasonable amount of CP.

[Riot Earp]

An AM Battalion is that what i´m aming for.

What would be your ideal cheap AM Battalion?

 

I would take one primaris one lord komissar and 3 infantrysquads maybe with heavy weapon. Or exchange one squad with an scion unit.

I could field 3 scion units but then i have to few boots on the ground as more of my ba battalion is deep striking.

[Panzer]

Not sure about the HQs since I never played AM myself but Infantry Squads with Lascannons sounds good. Maybe that's more a question for the AM subforum tho.

[Explorer1]

I think there's another way to approach maximising CP's though. The thing I'm turning around in my head is whether you can get the benefit of all the CPs, without taking a Brigade. Let me explain.....!

 

The idea is to take a Vanguard Detachment with an AM Company Commander and 3 Acolytes from the Inquisition Index for 48pts. If I make the  Company Commander the warlord and give him the Kurov's Aquila Relic, and the Grand Strategist Warlord trait, that means every time my opponent uses a stratagem I get a CP on a 5+, and every time I spend a CP, on a 5+ I get it back. Assuming I start with 8 CPs (Battalion plus Vanguard, plus Outrider), and my opponent has a modest 6, on average dice I should have 12+ CPs to spend. Controversially, I could use 1 CP to put the Veritas Vitia on a BA character, so when I spend a CP I roll 2 dice to get it back!!

 

I guess the difference is I cant guarantee having the point to spend in the same way as I would if I knew I had 12.

[Panzer]

I think there's another way to approach maximising CP's though. The thing I'm turning around in my head is whether you can get the benefit of all the CPs, without taking a Brigade. Let me explain.....!

 

The idea is to take a Vanguard Detachment with an AM Company Commander and 3 Acolytes from the Inquisition Index for 48pts. If I make the  Company Commander the warlord and give him the Kurov's Aquila Relic, and the Grand Strategist Warlord trait, that means every time my opponent uses a stratagem I get a CP on a 5+, and every time I spend a CP, on a 5+ I get it back. Assuming I start with 8 CPs (Battalion plus Vanguard, plus Outrider), and my opponent has a modest 6, on average dice I should have 12+ CPs to spend. Controversially, I could use 1 CP to put the Veritas Vitia on a BA character, so when I spend a CP I roll 2 dice to get it back!!

 

I guess the difference is I cant guarantee having the point to spend in the same way as I would if I knew I had 12.

I don't think you have access to the AM traits and stuff in a AM/Inquisition soup detachment tho.

Also Veritas Vitae works differently. You don't roll a dice for each CP you spend, you roll a dice for each Stratagem you use.

[tkni]

An AM Battalion is that what i´m aming for.

What would be your ideal cheap AM Battalion?

 

I would take one primaris one lord komissar and 3 infantrysquads maybe with heavy weapon. Or exchange one squad with an scion unit.

I could field 3 scion units but then i have to few boots on the ground as more of my ba battalion is deep striking.

 

If you can handle the 24" range, a battalion of 3 scion squads with hot shot volley guns (roughly, 8 special issue bolter shots), a prime with command rod (for double orders) and a psyker (for +1 to saves or -1 to enemy shooting) will get you some decent objective sitters and 3CP for ~280pts.

Edited December 27, 2017 by tkni

[Riot Earp]

I can field that but my problem is that i have to many deep strikers.

I want The Sanguinor Lemartes and maybe an librarian for more attacks, then i have 3 troops / Scout or intrecessors and one big JP DC.

I need more boots on the ground. I have also the problem that the games tend to smaller points like 1650 or 1500. Max 1850.

Not much room to bring enough units on foot to bring that many deep striker.

[tkni]

You don't *have* to deep strike scions, especially with the HSVG loadout....

 

If you're limited by points size, then maybe a cheap battalion for +3CP is too much. An outrider detachment of techmarine + 3 HB tarantulas gets you +1CP for ~170pts and 4 drops to offset your reserves. Plus, repairing tarantulas is kinda hilarious.

[Riot Earp]

Yeah i know but i have the urge if i field em.  

HSVG are an option but only on one sqad as i have 3 x 2 Plasma Scion squads of 5.

 

I will test around. AM are prefect to fill an second battalion on this point level.

[Calistarius]

Those are interesting thoughts. I’m definitely not opposed to Imperial soup lists. I like the possible narrative options there as well as the competitive aspect. I don’t own any AM as of now, but I’ve always wanted some for “allies.” Since I seem to be in the minority on brigades I’ll keep messing with the double battalion lists I currently field.

[dakkamasta]

I'm definitely making the small AM battalion a standard in my BA lists. I already play AM and love them so putting them in there doesn't really make me feel like I'm not playing the army I set out to play, especially for just over 200 points.

 

I'll be running 2 company commanders (or replacing 1 commander with a primaris psyker) and 3 infantry squads. Still tossing up whether the infantry squads should be backfield sitters with an autocannon/lascannon (either Cadian for rerolls or Valhallan for morale) or moving forward with flamers (probably as Catachan). The reason I can't decide is because despite sitting back with heavy weapons and holding objectives seems like the obvious choice, having squads moving up can provide much needed bubblewrap for our tanks. Also running them as Catachan with +1 Strength (and 3 attacks with Straken+Priest combo), they can support our marines by getting stuck in combat alongside them.

[Explorer1]

 

I think there's another way to approach maximising CP's though. The thing I'm turning around in my head is whether you can get the benefit of all the CPs, without taking a Brigade. Let me explain.....!

 

The idea is to take a Vanguard Detachment with an AM Company Commander and 3 Acolytes from the Inquisition Index for 48pts. If I make the  Company Commander the warlord and give him the Kurov's Aquila Relic, and the Grand Strategist Warlord trait, that means every time my opponent uses a stratagem I get a CP on a 5+, and every time I spend a CP, on a 5+ I get it back. Assuming I start with 8 CPs (Battalion plus Vanguard, plus Outrider), and my opponent has a modest 6, on average dice I should have 12+ CPs to spend. Controversially, I could use 1 CP to put the Veritas Vitia on a BA character, so when I spend a CP I roll 2 dice to get it back!!

 

I guess the difference is I cant guarantee having the point to spend in the same way as I would if I knew I had 12.

I don't think you have access to the AM traits and stuff in a AM/Inquisition soup detachment tho.

Also Veritas Vitae works differently. You don't roll a dice for each CP you spend, you roll a dice for each Stratagem you use.

 

All you need is an AM Warlord, so as long as the HQ in the Vanguard Detachment is a Company Commander then he can have the AM Warlord Trait and the AM Relic. I was aware of the restriction on the VV, just didn't express my self well. If I have the VV and the Grand Strategist Warlord Trait and use a 1 CP Stratagem I roll 2 dice. If it's a 2 CP Stratagem, I roll 3 dice etc. 

[Aothaine]

 

 

 

Not very bloodily-angelic, though, is it?

That list is GW's future vision of BA, and probably all "special" chapters, including DA/SW.

 

Looks potent though.

Care to explain your meaning?

 

I mean that GW will eventually, as in future editions, phase out "legacy/old/mini" marines and replace everything with Primaris. Obviously it's not happening this edition.

 

 

Didn't GW make a statement saying this is the last edition? Also, I don't think they will phase out smaller marines anymore. There will always be rules for the miniatures. Though they might stop selling them in a few more years or when the molds fail.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

 

Not very bloodily-angelic, though, is it?

That list is GW's future vision of BA, and probably all "special" chapters, including DA/SW.

 

Looks potent though.

Care to explain your meaning?

 

I mean that GW will eventually, as in future editions, phase out "legacy/old/mini" marines and replace everything with Primaris. Obviously it's not happening this edition.

 

 

Didn't GW make a statement saying this is the last edition? Also, I don't think they will phase out smaller marines anymore. There will always be rules for the miniatures. Though they might stop selling them in a few more years or when the molds fail.

 

No they never said that. They said it's the best edition we've ever seen for 40k.

 

Aside from that it has the potential to live way longer than any other without needing a reboot due the Chapter Approved books so unless they screw up or feel the need to release a new edition for whatever reason it could very well be the last edition as far as we know. ^^

[Diagramdude]

The Veritas Vitae is a BA relic, you have to have a BA warlord to take BA relics.

 

If you make the AM company commander your warlord you can only take AM relics, full stop.

[Kallas]

The Veritas Vitae is a BA relic, you have to have a BA warlord to take BA relics.

 

If you make the AM company commander your warlord you can only take AM relics, full stop.

That is debatable (and has been debated in various places, at varying lengths), but is for the OR.

[Withershadow]

Not really debatable given the wording and a relevant topic considering the discussion again turned to maximizing CPs.

 

That’s like saying, “I win all my games because whenever they start rolling well I just take my knife out and stab them.”

“ but that’s illegal!”

“ debatable. Anyway, take it to a law forum.”

 

:P

Edited December 28, 2017 by Withershadow

[Kallas]

Not really debatable given the wording and a relevant topic considering the discussion again turned to maximizing CPs.

It is debatable. It gets debated, and the wording isn't clear (unless it's been FAQ'd on which case, fair enough).

[Kolyarut]

You don't *have* to deep strike scions, especially with the HSVG loadout....

 

If you're limited by points size, then maybe a cheap battalion for +3CP is too much. An outrider detachment of techmarine + 3 HB tarantulas gets you +1CP for ~170pts and 4 drops to offset your reserves. Plus, repairing tarantulas is kinda hilarious.

 

This idea appealed to me (I ordered a buttload of third party tarantulas in a fit of pique earlier in the year) but Techmarines can only repair Blood Angels Vehicles, whereas Tarantulas are Adeptus Astartes Gun Emplacements, unless Battlescribe is wrong (entirely possible - seems odd enough that they don't appear to have a chapter keyword).

 

Not that it wouldn't make sense for them to be able to repair them, having proper dedicated heavy weapons turrets makes more sense than duct taping them to servitors - but RAW I don't think they can do this.