Letting yourself get assaulted, now viable? I think yes.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

In my last game I deep struck 9 SG, an SG ancient, and a SP. Because of terrain and model placement I knew I had decent shot of reaching at least one of his 10 man TH&SS terminators if I used the stratagem, but little to no chance of getting my buff guys in. In this case his terminators were also near an objective and I had scouts hidden nearby.

 

Granted TH&SS terminators are one of the last units you want to get assaulted by first... but with the relic banner I was still able to hang in and draw him away from objective. The priest brought a few guys back too. If he chose any other combat prior I would've cut in but he was smart.

 

In either case it got me thinking... most units in the game get no additional attacks for being the first to assault (except DC etc), and our new "chapter tactic" works even when we're assaulted. Obviously, going first is better! ...but letting yourself get assaulted is as good as it's been for BA. You can ensure they come where you want, you don't leave your buff guys behind, you might still be able to cut in and assault first, and you still get +1 to wound; your characters can also use Heroic Intervention after he's fought to add weight. Some enemy units are still going to be too deadly for this but I don't feel it's as necessary as it was to charge first (or fail), and it's quite a bit easier to have all your buffs included.

 

It makes me think that the new Red Thirst had this thinking in mind by including both being charged and heroic intervention.

 

Thoughts?

[Charlo]

I've been thinking this too.

 

Ultimately I'm not sure if striking second is great, but I suppose you get overwatch....?

 

Heroic intervention is easy enough and we can sure create a big wall of overlapping buffs to take advantage of. Not to mention being fat enough to counter charge in unexpected places. Plus our units have fly to fall back or special pistols to use once they get locked?

 

It's a hum-dinger!

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

The thing is...you have to be charged. If that is your plan your opponent can just make a shooty list and not charge you but shoot you off the table.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Obviously going first is better... just thinking though, when you're fully buffed and you can take punch (like SG with relic banner), you don't lose much, same attacks, same bonus and no losing buff characters plus heroic intervention.

 

Even some high volume overwatch from new primaris stuff.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Chaplain Gunzhard

[The Unseen]

Umm.... Except Sanguinary Guard can't take a punch. They are incredibly fragile for their points, even with the relic banner. Especially against stuff like Thunder Hammers. A 5 man squad of TH/SS termies kills like 3 Sanguinary Guard every time they swing. That isn't something you want to let happen. If you let a squad of Khornate Berzerkers charge your squad of Sanguinary Guard, your unit is probably dead/crippled before it even swings.

 

You should be using the (in general) better mobility of our units to make sure were the ones doing the charging, not hanging out waiting for the enemy to engage us.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

They can though, granted as I said, TH&SS terminators are one of those units you don't really want attacking first...

 

That said, my 9 SG, plus ancient and priest took that charge from 10 salamander TH&SS bad dudes. The 5+ fnp helped a lot and the priest kept bringing them back.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

The thing is...you have to be charged. If that is your plan your opponent can just make a shooty list and not charge you but shoot you off the table.

Totally agree, I'm not advocating trying this as your primary strategy... just saying there are instances where it is in fact better to let them charge (or not) rather than go for unbuffed charge, and that is 100% new for us.

 

Previously we lost a ton of attacks and buffs by not charging and they got extra attacks at you - none of that matters now.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Chaplain Gunzhard

[tychobi]

I feel like we do well for our points in general on the receiving end of a charge but it is not a viable means to an end. It happens and savvy generals may choose to forgo assaulting our units in favor of shooting them but you have zero choice in the matter. I feel like "viable" assumes a strategy and the only time you might forgo assaulting with a blood angel is if you are assaulting an over watch specialist. Angels wing is awsome vs baneblades and tau shenanigans. But not if you don't charge!

[Grazcruzk]

I had a moment last week where I had two squads multi charged by a razorback. Five intercessors and and five scouts. He tied me up like he wanted to but it really kind of psyched him out when he saw how many saves he was rolling on the return. I agree with the consensus of not getting charged when you can avoid it, but instances similar to this may give our enemies pause in future engagements and get them over-thinking things and hopefully making mistakes.

[Shaezus]

As with anything it is situational and varies depending if your oppo is more hakka than dakka, but this concept of 'baiting' a charge is what made me consider having the Sanguinor with the SG, along with priest and ancient. I wouldn't charge turn 1, but turn 2 would be a riot for me if the oppo doesn't deal with that unit. I suppose having an all-assault list makes the most out of not charging, to cause a prioritisation headache.

 

On the downside, and the reason I might just leave Sangy out of my army, is if I'm going to DS and not charge I may as well take a strong shooty unit, plasma etc. to maximise T1 damage.

 

I feel with this dex that there are so many carrots being held before our eyes, but taking one means we can't have any of the others.

[Pathstrider]

I think there is a further risk - the charging opponent will get to choose the order they attack in, so there is a risk they take out the ancient first so you lose the banner to the rest.

 

On the broader point, I agree - being charged is much less of a bad thing for us. So much so I’m thinking about taking cataprachtii terminators with a heavy flamer to drop, shoot and then take a charge

[Xerxus]

EDIT: nvm

Edited December 25, 2017 by Xerxus

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I think there is a further risk - the charging opponent will get to choose the order they attack in, so there is a risk they take out the ancient first so you lose the banner to the rest.

 

On the broader point, I agree - being charged is much less of a bad thing for us. So much so I’m thinking about taking cataprachtii terminators with a heavy flamer to drop, shoot and then take a charge

Agree with most points all around, but one of the advantages is you can arrange your models without relying on random and/or failed charges. The ancient is a separate unit, so he'd have to be able to multi charge them both, if he can't, you can use Heroic Intervention.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

The more I think about that combat with the 10 Salamander TH&SS, I wonder, ok best case scenario I charge, and my Ancient and Priest also get in and I do enough wounds to hurt these guys. This is clearly the best.

 

But If either the Priest or Ancient fail, and much worse if Ancient fails, then no Str bonus, no rerolls, no FnP-5+, the termies take a 3++ and hit back with same number of attacks, still rerolling for Salamanders, we lose a bunch of guys who only get a 6+ and no FnP.

 

If the termies charge, most likely they fight first, unless they choose another combat and you cut in, but you keep all your buffs (+1 str, rerolls, 6+/5+) and can keep the characters out of combat to heroically intervene, hitting back with same number of attacks and the Red Thirst.

 

I'd be curious to see the tiered mathhammer for this.

Edited December 25, 2017 by Chaplain Gunzhard

[tychobi]

Not charging to maintain our character buffs. . . This is all kinds of unfluufy rules tearing the heart out of the spirit of our army. Sad truth is you have a point. Charge may have been the wrong move. I'm going to sit over here depressed for a while

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Haha I feel you dude... and I'm definitely a go big or go home 40k player, so if there's a fairly decent chance of getting my buff guys in, I'll always go for it...

 

But I don't feel as bad about not charging anymore if it looks unprofitable.

 

In that instance I was so sure he'd pick to fight against captain smashypants first so I could cut in and fight next with SG but he made the smart move and it still worked out.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Chaplain Gunzhard

[Silas7]

Not charging to maintain our character buffs. . . This is all kinds of unfluufy rules tearing the heart out of the spirit of our army. Sad truth is you have a point. Charge may have been the wrong move. I'm going to sit over here depressed for a while

The fluff vs crunch is much better than it has been, so cheer up.