Encarmine weapons and force weapons

[Paladin777]

Does anyone know of a remotely decent reason for the encarmine weapons of the sanguinary guard to cost drastically more than force weapons of the same type despite having identical profiles?

[Calistarius]

I think it’s an attempt to limit the number of SG people use competitively. They reduced their overall cost but left them slightly expensive so you won’t see a Golden Host on every table. Just my opinion.

[The Unseen]

Kinda defeats the whole purpose of having weapons and bodies be costed separately then, doesn't it?

 

They should cost the same. If GW thinks that would make Sanguinary Guard too cheap, they should increase their base price. Not have an overpriced weapon option they are forced to take. Power Fists should not be tied for the CHEAPEST melee weapon option they have, when they are also superior most of the time.

[Panzer]

I think it’s an attempt to limit the number of SG people use competitively. They reduced their overall cost but left them slightly expensive so you won’t see a Golden Host on every table. Just my opinion.

That's extremely unlikely.

It's most likely just an oversight from GW.

[Paladin777]

Kinda defeats the whole purpose of having weapons and bodies be costed separately then, doesn't it?

 

They should cost the same. If GW thinks that would make Sanguinary Guard too cheap, they should increase their base price. Not have an overpriced weapon option they are forced to take. Power Fists should not be tied for the CHEAPEST melee weapon option they have, when they are also superior most of the time.

And this is precisely the reason I’m waiting for the faq before I start blood angels in earnest.

[Kallas]

Isn't the point that they can cost the weapons differently? If SG just had Force Weapons (which wouldn't make sense any way) then any cost adjustments would impact SG and Librarians; with them being a separate weapon, they can cost them more or less, depending on how they want to balance the units that can take them and the comparable weapons.

 

Why are Encarmine weapons more than Force Weapons? *shrug* Probably something to do with bigger units, cheaper base body and better use of Stratagems and buffs. A Librarian gets +1 Force weapon attack out of Unleash Rage; a unit of Sanguinary Guard gets +1-10 (depending on current unit count), for example.

[Calistarius]

Isn't the point that they can cost the weapons differently? If SG just had Force Weapons (which wouldn't make sense any way) then any cost adjustments would impact SG and Librarians; with them being a separate weapon, they can cost them more or less, depending on how they want to balance the units that can take them and the comparable weapons.

Why are Encarmine weapons more than Force Weapons? *shrug* Probably something to do with bigger units, cheaper base body and better use of Stratagems and buffs. A Librarian gets +1 Force weapon attack out of Unleash Rage; a unit of Sanguinary Guard gets +1-10 (depending on current unit count), for example.

Exactly. Why does it just have to be an oversight if you don’t like it? Part of the Force Weapon cost may be built into the Librarians price considering they don’t have access to the same array of CC weapons as other HQs. It’s just an attempt at balance.

[toaae]

It's because SG have access to Powerfists, so they have to balance the cost of the model, the encarmine weapons, and the power fist. If encarmine weapons were the same as FW, and the model just cost more to compensate, than a SG with PF would be overcosted. I suppose they could have made "encarmine fists" and given it it's own, lower point cost, but then we'd just be shifting this same question.

[Paladin777]

Except the power fist is the best weapon of the three most of the time and is tied for cheapest. Having looked at a it a bit more, the encarmine weapons are the same point costs as the corresponding force weapons used to be so I don’t think that the idea that it’s an oversight is that outrageous. I’m still holding off on getting sanguinary guard until the faq/errata comes out. Edited December 26, 2017 by Paladin777

[toaae]

Except the power fist is the best weapon of the three most of the time and is tied for cheapest. Having looked at a it a bit more, the encarmine weapons are the same point costs as the corresponding force weapons used to be so I don’t think that the idea that it’s an oversight is that outrageous. I’m still holding off on getting sanguinary guard until the faq/errata comes out.

 

I don't know about that. -1 to hit hurts, especially with so few attacks. Meanwhile, an axe or sword-with-priest-support don't have the malus to-hit, wound T4-and-under on 2s, and either have the same AP (sword) or just one worse (axe), with the same D3 damage.

 

I'm sure it's my own anecdotal experience, but power klaws on lone Nobs have often left me wildly disappointed, and those chaps come with 3-base attacks.

[Calistarius]

Except the power fist is the best weapon of the three most of the time and is tied for cheapest. Having looked at a it a bit more, the encarmine weapons are the same point costs as the corresponding force weapons used to be so I don’t think that the idea that it’s an oversight is that outrageous. I’m still holding off on getting sanguinary guard until the faq/errata comes out.

I agree with toaae here. The new Red Thirst rules give way more merit to the axe and sword than I think you’re giving them. Is this from personal experience? Have you used a proxy in your games to know for sure? The -1 of the fist is a big deal. Feel free to wait for the FAQ before purchasing anything. That’s probably a smart move. Just consider there are now 3 of us pointing out how this is likely a case of balancing out the new point costs, and not simply an oversight. Many of these things are intentional.

[The Unseen]

Yeah no. GW has shown time and time again its totally capable of screwing up anything and everything. Our Predators aren't costed appropriately either, they don't have the 12 pt reduction the other marine factions got in Chapter Approved. You think GW did that intentionally Calistarius? Or how about the fact that our Empyric Channeling isn't worded the same as the Vanilla and DA versions? Or Razorbacks being significantly under-costed until Chapter Approved? I could go on. Point is, GW is making a lot of mistakes, just as they always have.

 

Encarmine weapons are the second case I know of for melee weapons costing differently in the same codex for the same weapon, the other being Thunder Hammers, which get MORE EXPENSIVE when taken by a Character, not less.

 

Power Fists are worse vs T3, almost statistically identical vs T4 3+ save (3.5 compared to 3.7 for Fist vs Axe vs Meq, though the axe gets better vs lower save units marginally), and better vs everything else. If, on the other hand, they were costed the same as the recently reduced in price Force Weapons, to 8 for the swords, and 12 for the Axe and Fist both, choosing which weapon would at least be a cost/benefit comparison. The Swords would be 4 pts cheaper per model, and basically the same vs MeQs, while not being a whole lot worse vs tougher things, which would at least require a decision on the part of the player. But right now, Power Fists are significantly better overall than either of the other 2 options, which is pretty bad.

 

The simplest, and most consistent, reason is just that GW remains incapable of writing their own rules very well. Unless you think 20 pt Inferno Pistols, 7 pt Hand Flamers, and Power Fists and Thunderhammers that both cost 20 pts in the indexes were somehow intentional and well thought out decisions. Same people who wrote the Indexes are writing the codexes. I will say, that this go round on the edition train has seen GW make massive strides in building a better game and listening to customer feedback, and making changes when it seems like they're needed, and for that I applaud them. But their design team still apparently hasn't mastered basic statistical analysis.

[toaae]

I'm not going to argue that GW can make mistakes. As you point out, the predator is obviously an oversight. But when confronted with the question of this topic, it seems pretty clear to me that they wanted SG with either sword or fist to cost the same. I don't think Power fists are significantly better; I think swords have their niche.

Anyways, I guess what I'm getting at is that I wouldn't be surprised either way if they change the cost of encarmine weapons. I'd hesitate to bet that they would, though.

[Panzer]

I really don't think we can see any intention for either from GW there and the most likely case really is that it's an oversight as so often before.

Anyway there's no point in discussing that.

Edited December 26, 2017 by sfPanzer

[Calistarius]

The indexes were the first lines of rules for a new edition. The point costs are being lowered across the entire platform. Being able to use those pistols in combat perhaps left the writers feeling they needed a higher cost. I don’t know, but I’m not going to say these people are incompetent. I choose to believef these are intentional, and they don’t ruin my games. The individual weapon costs are a balancing mechanic. I guess we’ll all have to just keep disagreeing.

[Paladin777]

Well, I can agree to disagree and we will find out for sure when the FAQ comes out. Cheers mate! Edited December 26, 2017 by Paladin777

[Panzer]

Damn you are WAY more optimistic about how GW handles stuff than I am. Maybe it's just experience on my part tho.

Definitely have to agree to disagree with you on this one.

Well, I can agree to disagree and we will find out for sure when the FAQ comes out. Cheers mate!

Not necessarily. GW doesn't always include everything that needs adjustments in their FAQs either unfortunately.

[Calistarius]

Damn you are WAY more optimistic about how GW handles stuff than I am. Maybe it's just experience on my part tho.

Definitely have to agree to disagree with you on this one.

 

Well, I can agree to disagree and we will find out for sure when the FAQ comes out. Cheers mate!

 

Not necessarily. GW doesn't always include everything that needs adjustments in their FAQs either unfortunately.

Fair enough buddy. It’s just the mindset I choose to have. I’ve played since 3rd edition, and have witnessed a large number of mind numbing iterations of rules since then, as I’m sure you have too. They’re getting better as the years go on, and this is the most balanced I can remember the game in a really long time. We’ll see if that continues once everyone has a codex.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The sword is the better weapon for SG hence the point cost.