The Validity of Mortarion

[Prot]

I kind of hinted on this in another topic but I've been playing pretty middle of the road DG lists, and I can see from my experiences with certain armies I have to be able to turn it up... considerably.

 

So with marines, including DG, the new IG are an example of something that it really isn't even a game, and no real mystery in how the games go. 

 

I started thinking about throwing Mort in the mix. But I do not use Daemons, and my experiences with Magnus have not been good. Using the IG example I'm looking at bunches of Lascannons re-rolling all to hits, and a good deal of indirect fire from Basi/Manticore.

 

So for example last game, using terrain to my best benefit in T1 I lost a Plague Crawler and another one down to 3 wounds, and lost a Myphitic Blight hauler..... converting that to Mort, he's probably dead...except in the event I get Deathshroud terminators in the mix (but most likely would Deepstrike them T1 to keep pace for a turn with Mort.)

 

What do you think? Is it even worth it? Or perhaps an exercise in futility?

 

[MyD4rkPassenger]

I have fought tooth and nail in my local store to convince people he isn't as big of a deal as he seems.  One of the guys I know who plays guard runs 5 basilisks and 4 russes with a bunch of autocannon teams.  He's tabled my death guard every time we've played yet can't convince himself if he gets turn 1 the game is pretty much over for me even with Mortarion.  I honestly consider my DG an exercise in futility against my local guard players.  I've had to tweak my mono DG list so much to try and balance around tanks that I'm losing my strengths against other armies.  

Edited December 28, 2017 by MyD4rkPassenger

[hushrong]

I have only used him once so far and it was against the guns of the guard. Besides trying to use terrain I was very happy with Miasma of Pestilence and with the Deathshroud backing him up. It was nail biting just getting him into the fray because he does attract a ton of attention/gunfire.

 

With all of his special rules though once you get him into melee he truly reaps a bloody toll.

 

I am really tempted to try and get a CSM jump pack sorcerer into my list somehow for warptime.

 

*EDIT*

 

 

I have fought tooth and nail in my local store to convince people he isn't as big of a deal as he seems.  One of the guys I know who plays guard runs 5 basilisks and 4 russes with a bunch of autocannon teams.  He's tabled my death guard every time we've played yet can't convince himself if he gets turn 1 the game is pretty much over for me.  

Jeez.

Edited December 28, 2017 by hushrong

[Prot]

  He's tabled my death guard every time we've played yet can't convince himself if he gets turn 1 the game is pretty much over for me even with Mortarion.  I honestly consider my DG an exercise in futility against my local guard players.

 

This is my experience as well. I won't get into the defensive posturing that happens when I mention the same scenario (IE: if he has first turn I have no chance). Needless to say it borders on absurdity. Regardless, it's good to know it's not just me. (Misery loves company!) 

 

Your experience echoing my own has me really thinking against Mort though. Again I play Mono-faction lists. no Warp time or Daemon soup for me.

[MyD4rkPassenger]

 

  He's tabled my death guard every time we've played yet can't convince himself if he gets turn 1 the game is pretty much over for me even with Mortarion.  I honestly consider my DG an exercise in futility against my local guard players.

 

This is my experience as well. I won't get into the defensive posturing that happens when I mention the same scenario (IE: if he has first turn I have no chance). Needless to say it borders on absurdity. Regardless, it's good to know it's not just me. (Misery loves company!) 

 

Your experience echoing my own has me really thinking against Mort though. Again I play Mono-faction lists. no Warp time or Daemon soup for me.

 

I wouldn't completely count him out, as hushrong said he's really a monster in melee and deathshroud plus miasma make him hard to shift.  I've had a lot of fun in marine vs marine games, and one really cool tyranid game where he dueled the Swarmlord.  I'm just of the mindset the guard are the new 7E Eldar, and I take games against them with a grain of salt.  I would just take a look at your local group and see if you feel it's worth the investment.  I personally think he is against just about all armies.

Edited December 28, 2017 by MyD4rkPassenger

[SkimaskMohawk]

If you guys are going up against really strong guard lists, like not a  "woops that list I wanted to try was way stronger than I thought, I'll tone it down", but a deliberately made very strong list, then use magnus with him. Warptime, mega smite, and another huge threat that moves fast really shifts up how opponents deal with a list. Between miasma mort, and weaver of fates magnus you should be able to tank enough non mortal wound fire power to have them both survive

[Prot]

lol. There is no way I’m taking Mort and Magnus.

 

First of all I don’t know who I’m playing in advance. Most of my opponents in one group are capable ITC type players. Maybe one guy is some one you wouldn’t put in that category.

 

I agree in Marine in marine scenarios that is probably a good use for Mort. In my group I am the only marine player (except one guy who is really just learning). Hence it’s usually an uphill battle. 90 percent of my opponents are Xenos or IG.

 

I have to play fairly hard as nails my personal restrictions are staying within DG. If this means Mort isn’t worth it, then so be it.

 

To a degree I can replicate this premise with Typhus dropping in with Death shroud or with normal terminators and heavy weapons. This saves me needing a body guard by replacing shrouds with combo plasma terminators and about 300 points going from Mort to Typhus. However if Mort is that good then maybe it’s worth it. (Just keep in mind I’m not using warp time nor Daemons. $

[Bulwyf]

If you are sticking to mono DG, which I heartily approve of since all of my armies are mono as well, then Morty versus IG is never going to be worth it. That's too many points in a 2k list (I'm assuming this is 2k games) on a model that is going to be shot to pieces the entire game if not killed in turn one.

[Azekai]

Against guard things get pretty frustrating because the battles hardly seem to involve tactics (or even much interaction). The grand strategy involves buying a parking lot and shelling your opponents into oblivion. Once the guard player gets the momentum going from that first barrage, it is really hard to do anything but lose.

The easiest solution I have found is to avoid playing against guard. It's a cop out, sure, but it beats getting tabled by the end of turn 3. If you aren't having fun, you aren't obligated to play.

If you absolutely insist on playing against guard, I would play smaller point games. Your army is smaller, of course, but the guard player doesn't have as much firepower to splash around. Killing a single high cost model or squad in one go becomes more difficult. Missions are also important. I would not play anything that rewards static lines of tanks blowing up my lovingly painted plaguelings.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Azekai

[McElMcNinja]

He's a lot of points to lose at once, but in the games I've played I feel if they weren't shooting at him I would be losing just as many points elsewhere.

I was able to use him at my local GW Tanksgiving Day battle and I felt like I had an unfair advantage. Still fun to see how he did against so many different factions heavyweights.

[DuskRaider]

Playing Mortarion against any horde based list is going to result in frustration. Sure, he can probably clear a unit a turn but they'll either be replaced with another one or he'll just get riddled with high damage ranged weaponry.

[Kilofix]

Played him in 5 games so far. First game he was scary and folks weren’t sure what to do. Next 4 games he was dead by turn 2, once people figured him out. I’d rather take 3 Blight Hauler. Not that Blight Haulers are tougher but I’ll probably get more shooting in.

[Prot]

Yea I’m convinced in an ‘aware’ meta it’s extremely difficult to make him pay off. It feels very high risk/reward.

 

Coincidentally I just watched a FLG batrep today where Frankie’s Mort got walked very early by vanilla Dark Angels and then nearly tabled. It pretty much encapsulates my suspicions about Mort. Like I said Magnus is hard enough and he has inherent access to Warp Time and Weaver of Fate and I don’t think Mort can compare to that level of economic buffing.

[DuskRaider]

In order to best utilize Mortarion, you need to have Deathshroud strategically placed on the field as well as Daemonic allies for healing... bringing Epidemius also helps buff Mortarion as your army starts piling the bodies high.

 

When I bring him, I give him Putrescent Vitality and Blades of Putrefaction. I ensure he can buff himself in case he's on his own, but he should always have some sort of chaperone... be it Deathshroud, Bloat Drones, or even Daemon Princes. Anything to assist him in survival and threat prioritization.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Threat saturation is really the biggest issue. You need them to have to decide between mort or like 2-3 drones and 2 or so princes.

[Kilofix]

The four subsequent games where I lost Morty by turn 2, I had been running him with a 3 man Deathshroud, but no Blight Haulers as I didn’t have them yet.

 

This probably biased the meta / results but knowing that I was taking Morty, my opponents had taken stuff to deal with him. One list had 3 Predators (Killshot), another had a Repulsor (man that thing has a lot of shots - low AP but didn’t matter because of Morty’s Invul anyway) and a bunch of Hellblasters, another was Arjac + TH Terminators and Shield / Axe Dread, and lastly was a super Psyker list with Null (we weren’t using Beta Smite rules at this point).

 

The above chewed through my Deathshroud and Morty easily, and I subsequently lost those 4 games.

 

Again, the above would probably have also done a lot of damage to whatever I would have used if I hadn’t used Morty, but the problem with Morty is that offensively (though he does a decent amount of damage) he can really only effectively engage 1 opposing unit and can get blocked by screens.

 

The upper limit of Morty’s damage is like maybe 2x3 for Lantern and 6xD6 in CC. But if there are marines surrounding / screening a Predator then he’s stuck wasting his attacks on killing like 10 Marines. And if he flys too far forward then his Deathshroud can’t support. Meanwhile the equivalent in points of 3 Predators will hit Morty and his Deathshroud with like 12xD6 from Turn 1.

[DuskRaider]

I'm not really sure Blight Haulers will be good bait for opponents. Truthfully, even though I bought 3 and had been eagerly anticipating their release, I'm unsure if they're actually worth the 460 or so points it costs to field them. Then again, my buddy plays Iron Warriors which completely ignore the Haulers' buff and my son plays Ad Mech with a ton of Omnispex Arquebus', so I may be biased on this. Coupled with exactly zero weapons options and stuck with Multi-Melta and Missile Launcher, they're not exactly threat monsters.

 

When I played last against Tyranid swams, I also fielded a max unit of Plaguebearers, 3 Bloat Drones, a flying Daemon Prince (my Warlord with Supprocating Plate & the WL Trait to give him +1 Toughness), a Plague Hulk, 2 max units of Poxwalkers, Typhus, various ICs, 3 x 7 Plague Marines, Epidemius, 3 x Deathshroud, and a Herald to follow Morty around and buff him. He attempted to focus on Mortarion, but Deathshroud absorbed a ludicrous amount of damage and anything that went through to Mortarion himself was healed by the Herald (well, D3 worth). In the meantime, everything else was able to focus on his Synapse and caused him a lot of grief. When push came to shove though, swarms and bubble wrapping can really limit his effectiveness and it's a lot of points to invest into one dude. I will say though, I had previously scoffed at the Nurgle's Rot strategem until I actually played against massed infantry... well worth the 3 CP.

 

Edit: Oh I forgot, Blightlords too... you can't go wrong with DSing Blightlords into your enemy's backfield. They're extremely resilient and can punch holes in their army, especially with Combi-Plasma and Blight Launchers. 

Edited December 29, 2017 by DuskRaider

[Kilofix]

I admit, I haven’t actually tried Haulers in place of Morty yet. Will report back later after I get a few games in with them.

 

Btw, the Morty list I was using consisted of LoC, Caster, 2 x 7 PMs, 2 Rhinos, Pox, Biologus, squad of Blightlords, squad of Deathshroud, Plague Drone, and Morty right at 2000.

 

Edit - forgot to say I also had points to summon a Herald for heal.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Kilofix

[SkimaskMohawk]

Looks like a rather unthreatening list

[DuskRaider]

He's right. You're lacking anything that can actually keep up with Mortarion's advance, meaning your opponent has little to worry about otherwise. A single Bloat Drone isn't enough. 

[Panzer]

Well the Rhinos and the Terminators are pretty quickly in the opponents face as well, however those aren't dangerous until turn 2 or even later and Mortarion is simply a bigger threatso all the shooting would instinctively go into the big bad guy first.

You need some threats that can reach out to the enemy turn 1 as well so he can't ignore those for a turn to focus on Mortarion.

[Kilofix]

Perhaps I’m doing it wrong then - I’d be open to suggestions on what to take in a Morty list.

 

Edit:

 

The following list barely fits 2000. I didn’t have Haulers previously so I had gone with deep striking Loc, Terminators and using 2 Rhinos. But again, I’m open to suggestions on how to best run Morty myself.

 

DP (no points for wings)

Plaguecaster

 

10 Pox

2x5 Plague Marines (Blight Launchers)

 

3 Deathshroud

Biologus

 

2 Blight Drones (Flamers)

3 Haulers

 

Mortarion

Edited December 29, 2017 by Kilofix

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well this is going to be highly dependant on what you own.

 

But.

 

Wings on the Prince, more poxwalkers, and maybe a squad of cultists. Biologus can be dropped and invest his points somewhere else, as can the haulers. More drones, DP, las preds or dreads instead; you need a lot of foot sloggers to get value out of the cover aura or you're paint a lot for two single shot guns

[Kilofix]

DP w/Wings

Plaguecaster

 

10 Pox

10 Pox

5 Marines w/Blight Launcher

 

3 Blight Drones

2 Las Preds

 

3 Deathshroud

Mortarion

 

That’s just over 2000.

[Panzer]

Definitely Laspreds. Nobody likes his own armor to get blown up turn 1 so the opponent will want to get rid of those asap.....and luckily the units that would want to shoot at your Laspreds are the very same units he'd want to use against Mortarion as well.

 

Blightdrones are always good too. Fast and durable little things that can wittle down a lot of things in your opponents army. He may underestimate them the first one or two games but either he learns that he can't ignore them or they keep doing work. You can also use them to tie up non-FLY heavy weapon units that would otherwise threaten your Mortarion.

 

Daemon Princes with wings are pretty much a no-brainer imo. They are fast, they are reasonably tough and they can wreck a lot havoc in the enemy lines of he ignores them.

 

You should take at least two of the things above. Multiple times at that. Taking only one of each wouldn't be enough to keep your opponent busy.

After you added those units and Mortarion to your list you have already lots of points spent and not much on the table so you need some mass in form of Poxwalker and Plague Marines.

 

Imo such a list writes itself almost on it's own. The difficult part is to make it work on the table. I don't have much experience playing with (read: none) or against Death Guard so I can't say how strong such a list is but that's how I would attempt to write a list with Mortarion in it.