Specialist Games making a return

[Bryan Blaire]

I was hoping to get the Wrath and Glory rulebook as soon as it came out since some of my friends had shown interest in starting a Roleplay group but things like fighting Primarchs seem so unfitting for 40K. A random character from a random planet taking on a Primarch? Yeah, right. It really clashes with the setting.

 

Well, I think the question at that point becomes “Does the game require that the GM use Primarchs to fight the player characters, or does the rule set simply provide stats for them?”

 

If the game requires something of the GM like the use of specific enemies to fight PCs, it’s probably not that great anyway, because not only is it railroading the characters already, it’s also railroading the GM.

 

If it simply provides the stats for a Primarch, then a good GM will simply ignore them as wasted effort unless the players are themselves playing Primarchs as well, or the story actually needs the use of a Primarch (the PCs are a Space Wolf “honor guard” pack that needs to take the Primarch out for some reason).

[Charlo]

I think BFH would be a tighter start to the game and then you could always add more Xenos later.

 

Maybe set it during the scouring or something?

 

You could have a LOT of variety among the ships in that era, even if they are all Imperial or corrupted Imperial.

 

The rules would be rather diverse among legions too, like like the fluff: IW & DG could take a beating, WS would be fast as hell, AL could sabotage enemy ship components, WE & IF would have crazy good boarding actions :)

[Marshal Rohr]

I think BFH would be a tighter start to the game and then you could always add more Xenos later.

 

Maybe set it during the scouring or something?

 

You could have a LOT of variety among the ships in that era, even if they are all Imperial or corrupted Imperial.

 

The rules would be rather diverse among legions too, like like the fluff: IW & DG could take a beating, WS would be fast as hell, AL could sabotage enemy ship components, WE & IF would have crazy good boarding actions :)

For real. Imagine how sick a Thousand Sons Fleet vs. Alpha Legion would be.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

 

I think BFH would be a tighter start to the game and then you could always add more Xenos later.

 

Maybe set it during the scouring or something?

 

You could have a LOT of variety among the ships in that era, even if they are all Imperial or corrupted Imperial.

 

The rules would be rather diverse among legions too, like like the fluff: IW & DG could take a beating, WS would be fast as hell, AL could sabotage enemy ship components, WE & IF would have crazy good boarding actions

For real. Imagine how sick a Thousand Sons Fleet vs. Alpha Legion would be.

 

I think one of the real problems of getting deep into HH era for BFG is that you lose a lot of current factions that are playable. necrons, tau, tyranids, grey knights, sisters of battle (not that they really have a fleet presence besides the black ships) are all off the table, and thats almost half of the available armies and a good chunk of most of the BFG line.

 

While it does bring back a lot of ships that dont exist anymore in the current time line, it does make things pretty bland for the tabletop. At this time period the Imperial fleet is so massive and so powerful that they pretty much scoured almost all xenos from the galaxy, and any factions they add as a playable faction for BFG is gone long before 40k time period (unless they do more ret-conning). You end up with LOTS of imperial/chaos ships, some eldar ships, ork hulks and roks, and thats about it without any other xenos they are going to have to make. While the HH novels certainly give us some aliens to think about, not many of them have a massive fleet that could be much of a threat compared to the massive armada's that the legions brought with them.

 

Not to mention the mechanicus ships that were available at the time. The power scale between the imperium and almost any other species is beyond what we have for BFG in the modern times. Take the Tau for example, a manta might be able to handle some destroyers/cruisers, or possibly take out an imperial battleship if its lucky. But thats current era, HH era ships are leaps and bounds even more powerful. Better shielding, better computers, better weapon systems, more support craft and support systems to the point that almost any other alien craft other than necron or eldar could even pose a threat to the Imperial ships.

 

I am not saying HH BFG cant be done, but what I am saying is that there isn't much in the way of xenos that could stop the imperial galactic crusade, and that pretty much means HH BFG is really just going to be Imperium vs Imperium, and thats just boring. While HH fans might enjoy it, the lack of variety outside of that fanbase is probably going to kill it because its going to be really niche and there isnt going to be enough people to keep the specialist game afloat. Its not like you could make your own legion and bring it to the field, you can only take one of the 18 legions and mechanicus and thats it for the imperial fleet. Of which almost everyone has the same ships outside of a few specialized ships.

[Seahawk]

I am not saying HH BFG cant be done, but what I am saying is that there isn't much in the way of xenos that could stop the imperial galactic crusade, and that pretty much means HH BFG is really just going to be Imperium vs Imperium, and thats just boring.

 

 

This is what would make it super exceedingly boring. If we all wanted to use same/similar ships...why not backtrack to a WWII naval game; it's about on par with BFG's basic game design anyway! :lol:

 

Besides, you can already play Thousand Suns vs Alpha Legion in the current setting. Mostly. 

[Warpmiss]

A HH BFG would be interesting because I'd love to see models for every important ship of the HH but ultimately, 40k BFG has more options for different factions that aren't Imperium or Space Marine Legions...

 

 

 

I was hoping to get the Wrath and Glory rulebook as soon as it came out since some of my friends had shown interest in starting a Roleplay group but things like fighting Primarchs seem so unfitting for 40K. A random character from a random planet taking on a Primarch? Yeah, right. It really clashes with the setting.

 

Well, I think the question at that point becomes “Does the game require that the GM use Primarchs to fight the player characters, or does the rule set simply provide stats for them?”

 

If the game requires something of the GM like the use of specific enemies to fight PCs, it’s probably not that great anyway, because not only is it railroading the characters already, it’s also railroading the GM.

 

If it simply provides the stats for a Primarch, then a good GM will simply ignore them as wasted effort unless the players are themselves playing Primarchs as well, or the story actually needs the use of a Primarch (the PCs are a Space Wolf “honor guard” pack that needs to take the Primarch out for some reason).

Yeah, greatly depends on the GM. I guess that in my case, that'd have to be me so at least I could come up with a fluffy campaign that doesn't put a normal person against something that they can't possibly face by 40k Logic. But I have 0 experience as GM.

 

Then again, according to the FAQ, WnG is supposed to be divided in Tiers of power scaling where Tier 1 would be normal humans facing a Cultist uprising, for example. Primarchs would be in a really high Tier, I imagine.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

I think BFH would be a tighter start to the game and then you could always add more Xenos later.

 

Maybe set it during the scouring or something?

 

You could have a LOT of variety among the ships in that era, even if they are all Imperial or corrupted Imperial.

 

The rules would be rather diverse among legions too, like like the fluff: IW & DG could take a beating, WS would be fast as hell, AL could sabotage enemy ship components, WE & IF would have crazy good boarding actions

For real. Imagine how sick a Thousand Sons Fleet vs. Alpha Legion would be.

I think one of the real problems of getting deep into HH era for BFG is that you lose a lot of current factions that are playable. necrons, tau, tyranids, grey knights, sisters of battle (not that they really have a fleet presence besides the black ships) are all off the table, and thats almost half of the available armies and a good chunk of most of the BFG line.

 

While it does bring back a lot of ships that dont exist anymore in the current time line, it does make things pretty bland for the tabletop. At this time period the Imperial fleet is so massive and so powerful that they pretty much scoured almost all xenos from the galaxy, and any factions they add as a playable faction for BFG is gone long before 40k time period (unless they do more ret-conning). You end up with LOTS of imperial/chaos ships, some eldar ships, ork hulks and roks, and thats about it without any other xenos they are going to have to make. While the HH novels certainly give us some aliens to think about, not many of them have a massive fleet that could be much of a threat compared to the massive armada's that the legions brought with them.

 

Not to mention the mechanicus ships that were available at the time. The power scale between the imperium and almost any other species is beyond what we have for BFG in the modern times. Take the Tau for example, a manta might be able to handle some destroyers/cruisers, or possibly take out an imperial battleship if its lucky. But thats current era, HH era ships are leaps and bounds even more powerful. Better shielding, better computers, better weapon systems, more support craft and support systems to the point that almost any other alien craft other than necron or eldar could even pose a threat to the Imperial ships.

 

I am not saying HH BFG cant be done, but what I am saying is that there isn't much in the way of xenos that could stop the imperial galactic crusade, and that pretty much means HH BFG is really just going to be Imperium vs Imperium, and thats just boring. While HH fans might enjoy it, the lack of variety outside of that fanbase is probably going to kill it because its going to be really niche and there isnt going to be enough people to keep the specialist game afloat. Its not like you could make your own legion and bring it to the field, you can only take one of the 18 legions and mechanicus and thats it for the imperial fleet. Of which almost everyone has the same ships outside of a few specialized ships.

The additions of the other races shrinks the game more than you realize. It’s counter intuitive, sure. More races, more options right? Not really. In the game or in the background. The old BFG Xenos Fleet rosters are not diverse at all. Sure the Tau May have a standard fleet, but the Eldar factions, known for their piracy and artistry, all use the same three patterns of cruiser over and over across the galaxy? Why does every park kill cruiser look like it comes from the kill cruiser plant off of an assembly line? That’s counter factual to the background.

 

The idea that the Heresy ships wouldn’t be diverse is laughable since the Black Books have extensively covered how unique the imperial navy is at this point in Imperial history. That could easily translate into model kits that are plug and play, but not uniform like the old battleships and cruisers. Frankly, it’s lack of imagination, like always. People see marines vs marines and get up on that high horse (not you Saxxon, specifically, but others) complaining that it’s all the same, when pretty much the state of 40k is the same meta armies sitting in two corners of the boards not maneuvering. It’s pathetic.

 

Starting in the Horus Heresy is ideal because it allows you to introduce a massive faction of ships that can be designed from the ground up, if designed well from a rule perspective. Then you can slowly add in Xenos fleets which have always been less diverse and more uniform than the Imperial Fleet in the previous iteration of BFG. It’s like we can have new stuff AND the old stuff, and the anti-Heresy posters don’t want that because it acknowledges the Heresy at all. Like the people who want Titanicus to be 40k :rollseyes:

[Brother Tyler]

As much as I'm a fan of the Horus Heresy setting, I think that if BFG is brought back, it should be brought back in its classic form - the Gothic War (i.e., the 12th Black Crusade of Abaddon the Despoiler), with the "current era" xenos fleets included.
 
A Horus Heresy add-on would be perfectly fine, and something I would very much look forward to.
 
Suggesting that a switch to the Horus Heresy would be preferable is like telling Necromunda players that their new Necromunda is set on some other planet and features generic gang X versus generic gang Y. That would disenfranchise a great many players of the previous version of the game, especially those that only have xenos fleets. From a business perspective, retaining the established BFG setting/campaign/fleets reduces development costs, allowing them to focus on minor adjustments rather than having to work from the ground up. Neither of those (switching the setting, extensive redesign) makes any sense whatsoever.

[Magos Takatus]

I would be very curious to see what Dark Eldar, Tyranid and Necron fleets could look like with better quality models than the rather unimpressive models that they had before.

[Marshal Rohr]

As much as I'm a fan of the Horus Heresy setting, I think that if BFG is brought back, it should be brought back in its classic form - the Gothic War (i.e., the 12th Black Crusade of Abaddon the Despoiler), with the "current era" xenos fleets included.

 

A Horus Heresy add-on would be perfectly fine, and something I would very much look forward to.

 

Suggesting that a switch to the Horus Heresy would be preferable is like telling Necromunda players that their new Necromunda is set on some other planet and features generic gang X versus generic gang Y. That would disenfranchise a great many players of the previous version of the game, especially those that only have xenos fleets. From a business perspective, retaining the established BFG setting/campaign/fleets reduces development costs, allowing them to focus on minor adjustments rather than having to work from the ground up. Neither of those (switching the setting, extensive redesign) makes any sense whatsoever.

Follow my train of thought, each specialist game has come in a boxed set with just two starting factions. If you redesign the model ranger to be more modular, allowing for customized ships, the initial box set would obviously be Chaos vs Imperial, which could be combined for a FW black book tie in rule set. The way Geigor Fell Hand came from a boxed set and ended up in a plastic kit. So your grand cruisers and light cruisers could all be from one box of chaos vs imperials, or you can make them part of a legion Fleet.

 

It just makes more sense to design it with Heresy uses in mind.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

 

As much as I'm a fan of the Horus Heresy setting, I think that if BFG is brought back, it should be brought back in its classic form - the Gothic War (i.e., the 12th Black Crusade of Abaddon the Despoiler), with the "current era" xenos fleets included.

 

A Horus Heresy add-on would be perfectly fine, and something I would very much look forward to.

 

Suggesting that a switch to the Horus Heresy would be preferable is like telling Necromunda players that their new Necromunda is set on some other planet and features generic gang X versus generic gang Y. That would disenfranchise a great many players of the previous version of the game, especially those that only have xenos fleets. From a business perspective, retaining the established BFG setting/campaign/fleets reduces development costs, allowing them to focus on minor adjustments rather than having to work from the ground up. Neither of those (switching the setting, extensive redesign) makes any sense whatsoever.

Follow my train of thought, each specialist game has come in a boxed set with just two starting factions. If you redesign the model ranger to be more modular, allowing for customized ships, the initial box set would obviously be Chaos vs Imperial, which could be combined for a FW black book tie in rule set. The way Geigor Fell Hand came from a boxed set and ended up in a plastic kit. So your grand cruisers and light cruisers could all be from one box of chaos vs imperials, or you can make them part of a legion Fleet.

 

It just makes more sense to design it with Heresy uses in mind.

 

 

If a BFG was being developed from the ground up without and predecessors for the HH, an Imperial vs Chaos is just fine as the original BFG starter box was just that, Imperial and Chaos ships. The problem is that BFG is ALREADY established, an extensive model range was already created and a rulebook and expansion for BFG. BFG is already a thing with an established playerbase (though not particularly active, but people do own the models and rulebooks still, including myself). rebooting BFG to the HH era inherently screws over the established players who already invested into the game the first time.

 

Reworking and streamlining the BFG ruleset to allow both BFG and HH era allows GW to have their cake and eat it too. It gives players who already invested in it the first time around updated rules and an active community for new players to play with. Which having a playerbase is the hardest part of starting up a specialist game, if there is no one to play with/against, nobody will buy the game. But if there are already players who have their fleets ready and available to come out of the woodwork, you can build on that foundation.

 

GW can capitalize on the idea by launching campaign/rule books like they did back in the EYE OF TERROR days where you could have rules to run campaigns in BFG and the tabletop, and bring back MIGHTY EMPIRES for campaign tiles for people to keep track of. If you build an ecosystem and support it like they did back in 3rd/4th/5th edition, we could see another golden age for GW and a good influx of new players to play with established players.

[Marshal Rohr]

Releasing these games is good for models and players, but the studio is so incapable at creating worthwhile background that even with the great models and rules it’ll never be as immersive as it once was.

[Red_Shift]

Personally I would release bfg as battlefleet Armageddon and have it imperials vs orks. The illustrations for the ork ships in the bfg book were fantastic but the models were sub par. Allows a space marine strike cruiser to be chucked in on the imperial side also.

[Magos Takatus]

Personally I would release bfg as battlefleet Armageddon and have it imperials vs orks. The illustrations for the ork ships in the bfg book were fantastic but the models were sub par. Allows a space marine strike cruiser to be chucked in on the imperial side also.

That could be interesting. Didn't they release rules for other Battlefleets later in the BFG releases? That could be pretty interesting.

[Red_Shift]

Yes around the time of the 40k ArmAgeddon campaign. It seems like a logical selling point to me, get players to buy their army again in epic scale with titans and then a fleet and play linked battles.

 

Rules wise bfg May need an overhaul IIRC the eldar were a nightmare and when necrons arrived they were crazy overpowered.

[Seahawk]

The 2010 FAQ has been pretty steady as an update to the whole thing. Still, I've talked to Andy Chambers about it and even he agrees that, while solid, it's showing its age as a rule set. 

[Red_Shift]

I think dropfleet is more or less bfg version 2 Andy Chambers style. A bit too much of a departure for gw though.

[Seahawk]

Yep, he said it's the spiritual successor of BFG...I still haven't given it a read yet though. I guess it being centered over a planet never really interested me as much.