Blood Angel Biker Army Viable?

[Aothaine]

I was browsing through the lists forums to see if I could pick up on any trends or something I had not thought about and I came across a list that was using librarians on bikes. I think we would need to use the index for this but it got me thinking. Could we field a viable biker list? 

 

Benefits of Bikes: +1 Toughness, 14" Movement, Free Twin Boltguns/Bolters

 

Captain on Bike

Librarian on Bike

Techmarine on Bike

Chaplain on Bike

Apothecary on Bike

Space Marine Bike Squad

Scout Bike Squad

 

So, lets go into it a little bit here.

 

The captain on bike:

Master Crafted Boltgun/Combi-weapon & Thunder Hammer(Relic), Death Company Strat (Sweet!)

 

Librarian on bike:

Force Sword/Stave/Axe, Combi-Weapon/Bolt Pistol/Boltgun, can also use all the normal bells and whistles

 

Techmarine on bike:

2+ Save, with a servo harness he gets two servo arm attacks as well as a plasma cutter which is pretty awesome!, he can swap out his pistol for a combi-weapon, and a flamer. or you can not take the harness and swap out the servo arm with a conversion beamer. Pretty damn impressive.

 

Chaplain on bike:

Can take combi-weapon and lets everything in range reroll failed hits in melee

 

I don't have the rules for the space marine squad but I think they have chainswords right? I already know the scout bikers are super good. Then there are the attack bikes.

 

An all biker army that moves 14" then charged 2d6 gives you a 16"-26" charge range on turn one. That is pretty impressive. Or you can advance for a guaranteed 20" move.

 

I'm thinking about this and man... a chaos biker army would be equally if not more scary with that renegade chapter rule that lets them charge after advancing, 22"-32" charge range. Really really scary. I'm going to investigate this more over my three day weekend. Could be really cool to run a Renegade Biker Army with Air support and Daemon Princes. ^_^

 

[Panzer]

I honestly don't see a reason why one should take bikes over jump packs. Especially as Blood Angel.

 

Bikes:

- T5

- 14“ movement

- 6“ advance

- combi bolter

- not infantry so 1) harder to benefit from cover 2) can't carry specific mission objectives

- no FLY keyword (which also kinda invalidates their higher movement advantage again plus a lot of other things)

- no deep strike

- can't move into the upper levels of ruins

- can't use some of the best BA stratagems

 

 

The only bikes I'd take in a BA list are Scout bikes and maybe the occasional attack bike.

[Aothaine]

I honestly don't see a reason why one should take bikes over jump packs. Especially as Blood Angel.

 

Bikes:

- T5

- 14“ movement

- 6“ advance

- combi bolter

- not infantry so 1) harder to benefit from cover 2) can't carry specific mission objectives

- no FLY keyword (which also kinda invalidates their higher movement advantage again plus a lot of other things)

- no deep strike

- can't move into the upper levels of ruins

- can't use some of the best BA stratagems

 

 

The only bikes I'd take in a BA list are Scout bikes and maybe the occasional attack bike.

 

 

Something else to point out now that I can look at my codex. All the space marine bikers can drop their bolt pistol for chainswords giving them all two attacks base in combat and the sgt can take a special weapon so Power Axe allowing him to wound on 2+ with three attacks that hit on 3+. Not to bad. Rock them in units of 5 and that is a pretty scary mobile platform and you can support them with a Sang priest on bike from the index as well. That will allow the entire unit to wound on 2+. I wonder if it would be better to just run the Power Sword at that point.

 

So... Lets say you have something like this. Run it in one outrider and one supreme command detachments. You'll have 5 CP. Should be about 1995 points.

 

HQ - Librarian on Bike (Warlord) - 133

- Force Axe(Artisan of War), Twin Boltgun, Storm Bolter 

- Quickening & Wings of Sanguinius or Unleash Rage

 

HQ - Sang Priest on Bike - 100pts

- Chainsword  & Power Sword & Veritas Vitae & Twin Boltgun

 

HQ - Chaplain on Bike - 117pts

- Crozius Arcanum & Power Fist & Twin Boltgun

 

HQ - Chaplain on Bike  - 117pts

- Crozius Arcanum & Power Fist & Twin Boltgun

 

HQ - Sang Priest on Bike - 100pts

- Chainsword  & Power Sword & Twin Boltgun

 

FA - Bike Squad (9-man) - 247

- Chainsword(replaces bolt pistol) x8, Power Sword (Sgt), Twin Boltgunx9

 

FA - Bike Squad (9-man) - 247

- Chainsword(replaces bolt pistol) x8, Power Sword (Sgt), Twin Boltgunx9

 

FA - Bike Squad (9-man) - 247

- Chainsword(replaces bolt pistol) x8, Power Sword (Sgt), Twin Boltgunx9

 

FA - Scout Bike Squad (9-man) - 229

- Shotgun x9, Twin Boltgun x9, Power Sword

 

FA - Scout Bike Squad (9-man) - 229

- Shotgun x9, Twin Boltgun x9, Power Sword

 

FA - Scout Bike Squad (9-man) - 229

- Shotgun x9, Twin Boltgun x9, Power Sword

 

 

 

The Scout Bike Squads should be able to clear chaff with their massive firepower allowing the choppy bike squads to rush in and assault Turn 1 with the Sang Priest giving +1 str and the Chappy giving reroll all hits. Then the marines are wounding on 2+ against meq with chainswords and 4+ against T6-7 if the enemy is putting their units in vehicles. 

 

The Bike Squads setup like this have the following stats on the charge: 16 S5 AP0 D1 attacks that hit on 3+(reroll all misses) and wound on 2+, then you have 3 S5 AP-3 D1 attacks that hit on 3+(reroll all misses) and wound on 2+

 

That should be enough to put the hurt on a lot of things. You also have the Chappy and Sang Priest getting in on the fun too. And if you wanted to you could just setup the assaults on the first turn and fire the following into your enemy.

 

54 S5 AP 0 D1 (Shotguns if scouts are within 6" of enemy)

240 S4 AP 0 D1 (Twin Boltguns)(Add the shotgun shots to this if the scouts are over 6" from enemy) (Divide the 240 in half if the Boltguns are not in rapid fire range but they should all be able to get in rapid fire range)

 

This is nothing to laugh at. Your also fielding 59 models with T5, decent saves against small arms fire and incredible mobility. Sure they can't scale a building but you just unleash hell into the building and wipe the units in there with over-whelming fire. This is the same concept of the hurricane bolters and people should know how effective those are by now. Mass bolter fire is very scary.

 

Edit: Updated point costs. Couldn't afford two predators so I dropped them and added a supreme command detachment. I think I'm happier with this list.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Aothaine

[Xenith]

Don't forget that bikers and bike characters have an extra wound this edition.

 

Any bike list is going to be a shooty power list.

 

171pts for 3bikes, 2 plasma+attack bike is putting out:

16 bolt shots, 4 plasma, 1 melta shots at 12", and has 10 wounds

 

Which isn't too bad.

[Panzer]

 

Something else to point out now that I can look at my codex. All the space marine bikers can drop their bolt pistol for chainswords giving them all two attacks base in combat and the sgt can take a special weapon so Power Axe allowing him to wound on 2+ with three attacks that hit on 3+. Not to bad. Rock them in units of 5 and that is a pretty scary mobile platform and you can support them with a Sang priest on bike from the index as well. That will allow the entire unit to wound on 2+. I wonder if it would be better to just run the Power Sword at that point.

 

That's not how Chainswords work. The additional attack is with the Chainsword only, so the Sergeant would have two Power Axe attacks and a Chainsword attack.

 

Also you really need something else than Bikes as well or you won't be able to score any objective your opponent placed high in ruins etc.

[Aothaine]

 

 

Something else to point out now that I can look at my codex. All the space marine bikers can drop their bolt pistol for chainswords giving them all two attacks base in combat and the sgt can take a special weapon so Power Axe allowing him to wound on 2+ with three attacks that hit on 3+. Not to bad. Rock them in units of 5 and that is a pretty scary mobile platform and you can support them with a Sang priest on bike from the index as well. That will allow the entire unit to wound on 2+. I wonder if it would be better to just run the Power Sword at that point.

 

That's not how Chainswords work. The additional attack is with the Chainsword only, so the Sergeant would have two Power Axe attacks and a Chainsword attack.

 

Also you really need something else than Bikes as well or you won't be able to score any objective your opponent placed high in ruins etc.

 

 

Ohhh right! Can't believe I forgot about the powersword/chainsword thing :p silly me.  Also, about objectives in high buildings can't you just shoot the building down? There must be rules for it because some chapters have bonuses to do that. It is just not done that often since people are usually trying to kill the enemy first. Also, this list would more likely be used to table an opponent rather than win by objectives if they are up on top of buildings and such right?

 

 

Don't forget that bikers and bike characters have an extra wound this edition.

 

Any bike list is going to be a shooty power list.

 

171pts for 3bikes, 2 plasma+attack bike is putting out:

16 bolt shots, 4 plasma, 1 melta shots at 12", and has 10 wounds

 

Which isn't too bad.

 

Totally agree. I mean, you don't even have to have an entire army of bikes. I'm just trying to highlight that they might actually be better than most people think they are. Especially with Red Thirst.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

Something else to point out now that I can look at my codex. All the space marine bikers can drop their bolt pistol for chainswords giving them all two attacks base in combat and the sgt can take a special weapon so Power Axe allowing him to wound on 2+ with three attacks that hit on 3+. Not to bad. Rock them in units of 5 and that is a pretty scary mobile platform and you can support them with a Sang priest on bike from the index as well. That will allow the entire unit to wound on 2+. I wonder if it would be better to just run the Power Sword at that point.

 

That's not how Chainswords work. The additional attack is with the Chainsword only, so the Sergeant would have two Power Axe attacks and a Chainsword attack.

 

Also you really need something else than Bikes as well or you won't be able to score any objective your opponent placed high in ruins etc.

 

 

Ohhh right! Can't believe I forgot about the powersword/chainsword thing silly me.  Also, about objectives in high buildings can't you just shoot the building down? There must be rules for it because some chapters have bonuses to do that. It is just not done that often since people are usually trying to kill the enemy first. Also, this list would more likely be used to table an opponent rather than win by objectives if they are up on top of buildings and such right?

 

Buildings != ruins. Two different things.

[Bonzi]

Bikes are great for BA as well as some Landspeeder variants. Bikes have the dakka, toughness and staying power that our jump units don't. Do trade all pistols for chainswords. The only weakness of bikes is that unlike jump, they can't leave combat and still shoot. Landspeeders with dual h flamers can though and both these units are great at soaking overwatch so our frail jumpers don't have to. All bikes may be a touch much, but it would deffo be good if you sprinkle a few other units in.

 

Let Blood Rodeo make it's return!

[Aothaine]

Bikes are great for BA as well as some Landspeeder variants. Bikes have the dakka, toughness and staying power that our jump units don't. Do trade all pistols for chainswords. The only weakness of bikes is that unlike jump, they can't leave combat and still shoot. Landspeeders with dual h flamers can though and both these units are great at soaking overwatch so our frail jumpers don't have to. All bikes may be a touch much, but it would deffo be good if you sprinkle a few other units in.

 

Let Blood Rodeo make it's return!

 

True but they can fallback and assault again. I think people are forgetting this. It lets us auto renew red thirst if the units we're assaulting survive. But also in the list above I've kind of planned for that with the scout bikers. You assault with the bike squads, fall back and shoot with the scouts then charge again with the bike squads. You can even use cluster mines with the scouts if they get assaulted or assault.

[Panzer]

 

Bikes are great for BA as well as some Landspeeder variants. Bikes have the dakka, toughness and staying power that our jump units don't. Do trade all pistols for chainswords. The only weakness of bikes is that unlike jump, they can't leave combat and still shoot. Landspeeders with dual h flamers can though and both these units are great at soaking overwatch so our frail jumpers don't have to. All bikes may be a touch much, but it would deffo be good if you sprinkle a few other units in.

 

Let Blood Rodeo make it's return!

 

True but they can fallback and assault again. I think people are forgetting this. It lets us auto renew red thirst if the units we're assaulting survive. But also in the list above I've kind of planned for that with the scout bikers. You assault with the bike squads, fall back and shoot with the scouts then charge again with the bike squads. You can even use cluster mines with the scouts if they get assaulted or assault.

 

They can't tho. Only White Scars Bikes can do that.

[Aothaine]

 

 

Bikes are great for BA as well as some Landspeeder variants. Bikes have the dakka, toughness and staying power that our jump units don't. Do trade all pistols for chainswords. The only weakness of bikes is that unlike jump, they can't leave combat and still shoot. Landspeeders with dual h flamers can though and both these units are great at soaking overwatch so our frail jumpers don't have to. All bikes may be a touch much, but it would deffo be good if you sprinkle a few other units in.

 

Let Blood Rodeo make it's return!

 

True but they can fallback and assault again. I think people are forgetting this. It lets us auto renew red thirst if the units we're assaulting survive. But also in the list above I've kind of planned for that with the scout bikers. You assault with the bike squads, fall back and shoot with the scouts then charge again with the bike squads. You can even use cluster mines with the scouts if they get assaulted or assault.

 

They can't tho. Only White Scars Bikes can do that.

 

 

And Deathwatch. I mistakenly thought that relentless assault was available to all bike squads. So it does change things up a bit then. hmm...

[Panzer]

For me the crucial difference is that compared between Assault Marines/Vanguard Veterans/Company Veterans/Deathcompany/Sanguinary Guard and Bikes...FLY is such an incredibly useful keyword that can't really get replaced and the amount of utility our Codex offers for Jump Pack units with the two Stratagems while Bikes don't get anything others wouldn't get as well.

That and the fact that Jump Pack units are usually infantry which lets them get easily cover and enables them to carry specific objectives depending on the mission.

Edited December 31, 2017 by sfPanzer

[Mostwanted]

Does the codes supersede the index book meaning no bikes for our characters? I have no idea why we can't give our characters bikes in our codex, unless I'm missing something?

[Aothaine]

Does the codes supersede the index book meaning no bikes for our characters? I have no idea why we can't give our characters bikes in our codex, unless I'm missing something?

 

No we can. Gw released a article saying that we can still us index rules for models that are not represented in our dex.

 

For me the crucial difference is that compared between Assault Marines/Vanguard Veterans/Company Veterans/Deathcompany/Sanguinary Guard and Bikes...FLY is such an incredibly useful keyword that can't really get replaced and the amount of utility our Codex offers for Jump Pack units with the two Stratagems while Bikes don't get anything others wouldn't get as well.

That and the fact that Jump Pack units are usually infantry which lets them get easily cover and enables them to carry specific objectives depending on the mission. But mainly really th

 

Yeah I think I kind of agree then at this point that bikes are kind of sub-optimal but can still be used. But Scout bikes are still amazing if you want a strong firebase and I think they can support intecessor squads amazingly well with some lascannon preds on the backline.

[Mostwanted]

Ahh great, thanks Aothaine. Another purchase for me then. Edited December 30, 2017 by Mostwanted

[Aothaine]

Ahh great, thanks Aothaine. Another purchase for me then.

 

Lol I hear ya! I am pretty sure every unit in our dex is usable and good. Just depends on how you want to build everything.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

I really like the look of scout bikers, they've got shotguns in addition to their twin bolters, so can put out decent dakka, have combat blades and bolt pistols so not only do they get an extra attack in melee, but can also shoot while locked in combat. Also they've got that cool stratagem that let's you do mortal wounds when you fallback from combat. The only advantage regular bikes have over scout bikes is the 3+ save and access to special weapons, and while the former could be seen as a bit of a disadvantage, the latter is pretty irrelevant considering that BA can take them in our RAS.

[Bonzi]

For me the crucial difference is that compared between Assault Marines/Vanguard Veterans/Company Veterans/Deathcompany/Sanguinary Guard and Bikes...FLY is such an incredibly useful keyword that can't really get replaced and the amount of utility our Codex offers for Jump Pack units with the two Stratagems while Bikes don't get anything others wouldn't get as well.

That and the fact that Jump Pack units are usually infantry which lets them get easily cover and enables them to carry specific objectives depending on the mission.

Not every unit in the army must benefit from strategems in order to be worth it because CP are so limited that not every unit will get to use CP anyway. Some units need to be considered because their abilities fill gaps inherent in BA style armies.

 

Bikes price per wound is better than most jump units, they also are tougher and bring superior dakka and their mobility puts them right on the front line with our jumpers. These are the guys who peel bubble wrap so jumpers can make better charges. These are the guys who can take abuse while our jumpers are waiting in reserve for good targets.

 

I sometimes wonder if players are hamstringing their armies chasing CPs and strategem based one trick ponies at the cost of solid list functionality.

 

I just ran a BA list last week that had one, just one guy with a jump pack. I had scouts, Tacticals, assault Terminators, bikes, devastators, and rhinos lead by a term captain, a term Libby, a term ancient, and a sang priest. I used not one jumper strategem but I beat a Mars mechanicus list lead by Crawl and backed by a Knight Crusader. My list was a whose who of non-meta for BA and it was effective, fun, and felt as glorious as my Archangels of old.

[Panzer]

I didn't say every unit has to benefit from Stratagems. We're talking about a whole army of bikes here. Also Stratagems was only part of my argument anyway.

[Charlo]

Bikes have a place for us, but its just quite different to how it used to be. In 7th they were our best (and one of our only) Grav-caddies so could keep on the pressure and dismantle elite units. Now it seems that they are much better at clearing chaff with lots of bolt shots & special weapons etc

 

How do they compare in points to Aggressors? Because they're deceptively similar... Especially if you give bikes Flamers too. Aggressors obviously having more "punch" in combat with power fists.

[Panzer]

I'd honestly rather compare them with Inceptors than Aggressors. Both same amount of wounds, same amount of attacks, same toughness, both are pretty mobile and both excel at clearing chaff. Just that one does it with regular S4 AP0 shooting and the other does it with the more expensive S5 AP-1 shooting.

 

Both also cost the same amount of points per model without weapons included. On that basis alone I'd definitely say that Inceptors are winning out here since the only thing that Bikes have over them is now the Advance move of flat 6" while Inceptors still have all the benefits that come with the FLY keyword and being Jump Pack units.

However the basic weapons of Bikes are almost free while the Inceptors pay 20ppm for their two weapons. So basically 18p to upgrade from 24" Rapid fire2 S4 AP0 to 2x 18" Assault3 S5 AP-1. Imo worth the points if you have them.

The other thing is that Bikes of course have a bit more options what to take (tho I'd say Stormbolter and maybe Flamer is the best loadout for them) and the Sergeant can take a fancy melee weapon but I wouldn't put too many points into that considering they don't have the FLY keyword and the rest of the unit wants to mainly shoot instead of getting stuck in melee except for wiping some leftovers from the board.

 

I'd say it's a tossup with a clear advantage for Inceptors. Even more than the comparison with our other Jump Pack units.

[Morticon]

 

Not every unit in the army must benefit from strategems in order to be worth it because CP are so limited that not every unit will get to use CP anyway. Some units need to be considered because their abilities fill gaps inherent in BA style armies.

 

Bikes price per wound is better than most jump units, they also are tougher and bring superior dakka and their mobility puts them right on the front line with our jumpers. These are the guys who peel bubble wrap so jumpers can make better charges. These are the guys who can take abuse while our jumpers are waiting in reserve for good targets.

 

I sometimes wonder if players are hamstringing their armies chasing CPs and strategem based one trick ponies at the cost of solid list functionality.

 

I just ran a BA list last week that had one, just one guy with a jump pack. I had scouts, Tacticals, assault Terminators, bikes, devastators, and rhinos lead by a term captain, a term Libby, a term ancient, and a sang priest. I used not one jumper strategem but I beat a Mars mechanicus list lead by Crawl and backed by a Knight Crusader. My list was a whose who of non-meta for BA and it was effective, fun, and felt as glorious as my Archangels of old.

 

 

I think this is quite well said.  I like the idea of using units to fill gaps rather than be bound to the strats.   I'm still figuring out that balance. 

[aluriel00]

My thinking on bikes is as a fast moving screen, the same way tanks would be.

 

3-5 vateran squad on bikes with storm bolters/storm shields OR power sword/storm shield

1-2 jump units in their shadow

 

Bikes move forward firing and then jump units jump them to charge OR

Bikes move forward firing and jump unts jump over them and enemy so enemy cant withdraw when bikes charge

 

I have a lot of the outrider bikes and really want to paint them red

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Jump infantry has so many perks for BA - bikes were great last edition but from what I have seen even the mighty RW struggles now to be truly competitive.

[Xenith]

 

Not every unit in the army must benefit from strategems in order to be worth it because CP are so limited that not every unit will get to use CP anyway. 

 

Indeed. This is Descent of Angels trap all over again.

 

Just because our jump units can use DoA doesn't mean every unit should. 

 

Bikes have a solid place in an army.