Returning Crusader

[Nyustukyi]

Hello All,

 

I am returning from a break due to life and 8th edition coming out. So I have questions about 8th edition and what it meant for us and some basic questions.

 

Black Templar Related:

1. What damage was done to us? (What was taken away.)

2. What gifts did we receive? (What did the give us.)

3. Can we Armor Smash or are we Foot Slogging (Or anywhere in between)?

 

General Questions that go with my Black Templar Army:

1. Can I use my Spartan/Typhoon? If so where do I find the rules for them (i.e. What supplement or book)?

2. Are Formations like the Black Templ----Land Raider Spearhead gone?

 

[Firepower]

Welcome back to the Eternal Crusade, brother. 

 

With that formality out of the way, allow me to assail you with my pessimistic cynicism over the current state of affairs. 

 

1- Well depending on how long you've been gone, our fluff in the dex may...'surprise' you.  It changed back in the 6th edition dex, when we were rolled into C:SM.  We don't have nearly the toys we used to when it comes to special abilities like the Vows.  We're more or less on an even keel with the Vanilla Chapters, with exception to our having Crusader Squads (which is arguably the best Troop unit in the dex, aside from Scouts) and no Librarians (while we aren't tainted by their filth, we struggle greatly in countering psychic powers without them).

 

Assault right now isn't great.  No one gets extra attacks for using a pistol now, or for charging.  While we used to rely on weight of dice in an assault, that's pretty much out the window.  What's worse is any unit can just run away from a melee with no penalty aside from sacrificing their shooting that turn.  In the current meta of hordes, you won't wipe most squads, they'll walk away, and you'll get shot to hell by all their mates.  So basically, aside from serious beat stick melee units (which pale in comparison to most other armies' beat sticks), charging (for C:SM) is relegated to cleaning up units that have already been shot up pretty badly.

 

In a nutshell, we are an assault army in a shooty dex.

 

But on the upside, few models are what I would call "dead," after all the drastic changes to the rules.  The biggest victim is probably the Vindicator, which is now rather useless.  With no Templates in 8th, it just fires a random number of shots...from 1 to 3.  Or a d6 if the target unit is of a certain size.  So all those big, bunched up Guardsmen/Ork/Tyranid units don't have to worry about massive pie plates, and at worst might lose 6 models.  Aside from that though, most things still work to some degree...well, assault notwithstanding.

 

2- A free re-roll for charge distances.  That's...pretty much it, really.  I guess our HQ's are good, too, but that's not really a special gain or new trick.  The Champion is dirt cheap and can hit well above his weight against characters.  Cenobytes are just 6 points, and aren't tied to Grimaldus anymore.

 

3- Well....hm.  I would generally recommend transports.  The LRC is a monstrously strong gun platform, but now vehicles can be locked up by charges, and can't shoot the turn they withdraw, so it's got a real problem there.  Most folks prefer the Storm Raven these days, which is also a ruthlessly mean gun platform and doesn't have to worry about that issue.  You do need a lot of boots on the ground just to deal with the sheer number of infantry other armies can bring, but foot slogging Black Tide is still rather dead.

 

1b- Dunno

 

2b- Yup.  They've been kinda replaced by Stratagems, which do have similarities to what the old formations could do.  The general "I wanna win" trick these days isn't in formations, but ally 'soup.'  Basically, that means taking Guard, sprinkling in a few Templar units as a garnish, and calling it a Templar army to appease your guilt...

 

Oh, as something of an upside, you've probably seen all this Primaris stuff.  Well the good news is that they aren't necessary.  There are good Primaris units, but they are fairly well balanced against other units in our Dex- not underpriced or superior in all regards to Marines Classic, so you can skip them without losing much of anything.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Firepower

[allegedlynerdy]

 

Oh, as something of an upside, you've probably seen all this Primaris stuff.  Well the good news is that they aren't necessary.  There are good Primaris units, but they are fairly well balanced against other units in our Dex- not underpriced or superior in all regards to Marines Classic, so you can skip them without losing much of anything.

 

Honestly, I don't even see a purpose for the intercessors, which seems to be what everyone is writing home about. Sternguard with special issue boltguns get the same range, better AP, you can give the sergeant a melee weapon, and you can give them heavy/special weapons. The only downside is one less wound and that they take up an elite slot instead of a troop slot (which doesn't matter since not all detachments require troops anymore, and you'll probably want to save your troop slots for crusader squads). I believe that they have a better BS as well, but I don't have my codex with me, so don't quote me on that.

 

I also disagree on melee being weak. We're weak against dedicated melee armies, but I've done very well against pretty much everyone else with a footsloggy list (with some deepstrike reinforcements). The big thing is running with aura effects, chaplain with crusader helm is always the way to go. 

 

Also, as a guard player, I can say that now, with all of the nerfs that guard has gotten, it really doesn't work well.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Hello All,

 

I am returning from a break due to life and 8th edition coming out. So I have questions about 8th edition and what it meant for us and some basic questions.

 

Black Templar Related:

1. What damage was done to us? (What was taken away.)

2. What gifts did we receive? (What did the give us.)

3. Can we Armor Smash or are we Foot Slogging (Or anywhere in between)?

 

General Questions that go with my Black Templar Army:

1. Can I use my Spartan/Typhoon? If so where do I find the rules for them (i.e. What supplement or book)?

2. Are Formations like the Black Templ----Land Raider Spearhead gone?

 

Welcome back, I remember seeing you from around here, but I can't remember which thread it was...

 

1. If your from 4th, then pretty much a lot of everything is gone... from Vows to the Holy Orb of Antioch is now gone... if you're from 5th, then Preferred Enemy is gone too... if you're from 6th-7th, then we lost all of the Chapter Tactics stuff and got stuck w/ Charge rerolls, but you have to reroll both dice when charging and not just 1... so you may get a worse roll than previous... in terms of fluff, Firepower has it pretty much down... if you're not familiar with it, then we are back to being "God-Emperor" worshiping zealots, that look longingly at other Chapters Librarians and wish we could have psykers of our own... I know, it's heretical and disgusting... the bonus is apparently we have thousands of Crusaders, and that means it throws the whole low number of Templars due to wars theory out the window... no more formations either, and Grav Weapons are significantly weaker than before...

 

2. Strategems, which we can use if we have Command Points, that can change the tide of battle, including being able to attack again in CC after finishing attacking with that squad, being able to reroll To Hit or to Wound Rolls a Turn, or for Templars, outright cancelling psychic powers used 24" away from any friendly Templar unit by rolling a 4+ or use a Command point at the start of a game to give a unit an army Relic... so Burning Blades, Armor Indomitus, Shield Eternal and similar no longer use points, but only Command Points... Command Points are gained by your force Structure, certain detachments grant CP and the more CP you have, the better... Primaris has been added, but are not a necessity, Helbrecht adds +1 St to anyone 6" of him... Emperor's Champion can cleave through characters he couldn't handle previously... and Power Fists/Thunder Hammers can now attack with the rest of the squad as long as you charge but needs 4+ to Hit for base Marines... anything and everything can be killed by Infantry provided you have the right weapon... you can use keywords to align armies with similar keywords, so anything with "Imperial" can be allied with without limitations from before... we also get a new warlord trrait... but nothing to write home about...

 

3. We can do both, but it won't be as effective as having a well balanced but efficient list... hordes will hurt Elite armies, unless you are prepared for it, and tactics are harder, but more effective now more than ever... unit placement and right timing of use of strategems can win any difficult game, but power creep will still always be apparent and it will take some time to get used to newer stronger armies...

 

4. Index: Forces of the Adeptus Astartes... check FW/GW often as now they revise and FAQ their books more often than before for game balancing

 

5. Yes they are gone... there are certain strategems that can be pulled off by having units similar in number to the formations from a while back, like Annihilation shot form 3 Preds, Demolisher shot from 3 Vindicators and so on... but it uses CP as well as having the requirements in number of said units...

[Honda]

Welcome back brother, you have missed. Much has changed since your absence....

 

With that formality out of the way, allow me to assail you with my pessimistic cynicism over the current state of affairs. 

 

 

In today's exercise, I will offer a counter point based on what I have experienced. With that being said, our groups doesn't do tourneys, we are full on narrative style gaming.

 

One of the things you'll have to get used to is that the point system is still present, but their is a new way of selecting forces called Power Levels (PL). Our group has shifted over completely to Power Level. Power Levels allow the purchase of whole units. The cost of a partial unit vs. a full unit is the same.

 

Also, PLs ignore the cost of individual weaponry, which greatly speeds up the development of a list.  I suspect that the reason is if you don't care what something costs, then you always bring what you want as does your opponent. How you kit out your units is up to you, but it is extremely liberating, to say the least, to just put your units together without worrying about he cost of everything.

 

Last night I played in a 300 PL game, which is roughly equivalent to 3000 points in older editions. I say roughly, because it depends on the options you take. I'll post more details about that in my batrep later.

 

1- Well depending on how long you've been gone, our fluff in the dex may...'surprise' you.  It changed back in the 6th edition dex, when we were rolled into C:SM.  We don't have nearly the toys we used to when it comes to special abilities like the Vows.  We're more or less on an even keel with the Vanilla Chapters, with exception to our having Crusader Squads (which is arguably the best Troop unit in the dex, aside from Scouts) and no Librarians (while we aren't tainted by their filth, we struggle greatly in countering psychic powers without them)

 

There have been several attempts to rewrite our history. Templars recognize this effort for what it is. The tendrils of Chaos have insinuated themselves in major factions of the Remembrancers and attempted to remove our history and we know it to be. High Marshal's McNeill and A-D-B have maintained their vigil and reinforced the lore that we know and believe.

 

Secondly, we have access to an armory that is significantly larger than in previous editions. Some prefer the old ways, others have embraced the increase in our abilities to bring the Emperor's Holy Wrath upon the weak, the treacherous, and the foul.

 

Assault right now isn't great.  No one gets extra attacks for using a pistol now, or for charging.  While we used to rely on weight of dice in an assault, that's pretty much out the window.  What's worse is any unit can just run away from a melee with no penalty aside from sacrificing their shooting that turn.

 

 

Although this edition (8th) has fully embraced the power of bolter, there are still units in our armory that cause great pain to the heretic. For sheer resilience and brutality, there is very little better than Assault Terminators. Again, more on them in my batrep.

 

I will say that +2 armor with high Invulnerable saves pays generous dividends.

 

In the current meta of hordes, you won't wipe most squads, they'll walk away, and you'll get shot to hell by all their mates.  So basically, aside from serious beat stick melee units (which pale in comparison to most other armies' beat sticks), charging (for C:SM) is relegated to cleaning up units that have already been shot up pretty badly.

 

 

There are varied reports from several crusades regarding their experiences. The Council of Marshals is still collating this data for presentation to our Chapter.

 

In a nutshell, we are an assault army in a shooty dex.

 

 

This is a true statement. I do not think it is a bad thing because we have tremendous firepower at our disposal as well.

 

But on the upside, few models are what I would call "dead," after all the drastic changes to the rules.  The biggest victim is probably the Vindicator, which is now rather useless.  With no Templates in 8th, it just fires a random number of shots...from 1 to 3.  Or a d6 if the target unit is of a certain size.

 

 

Alas, this is true. Our tried and true Vindicator is currently suffering from the recent weapons recalibration by the Mechanicum. This issue is quite galling.

 

In exchange, Whirlwinds have stepped up to the plate and perform well until the weapons recalibration for the Vindicator can be corrected.

 

So all those big, bunched up Guardsmen/Ork/Tyranid units don't have to worry about massive pie plates, and at worst might lose 6 models.  Aside from that though, most things still work to some degree...well, assault notwithstanding.

 

 

It seems that collaboration with other Imperial allies has been encouraged to support our endeavors. Each Marshal should decide for themselves as to how to effectively come to grips with the enemy and bring down the Emperor's retribution.

 

2- A free re-roll for charge distances.  That's...pretty much it, really.  I guess our HQ's are good, too, but that's not really a special gain or new trick.  The Champion is dirt cheap and can hit well above his weight against characters.  Cenobytes are just 6 points, and aren't tied to Grimaldus anymore.

 

 

The free re-roll is huge (our experience). Other chapters must expend a Command Point (i.e a pool of points you spend for extra actions/capabilities) to gain this ability and they can only do that once.

 

We are now able to charge better than anyone else in the Imperium! (Note: I do not yet know how the new BA codex influences that statement).

 

3- Well....hm.  I would generally recommend transports.  The LRC is a monstrously strong gun platform, but now vehicles can be locked up by charges, and can't shoot the turn they withdraw, so it's got a real problem there.  Most folks prefer the Storm Raven these days, which is also a ruthlessly mean gun platform and doesn't have to worry about that issue.  You do need a lot of boots on the ground just to deal with the sheer number of infantry other armies can bring, but foot slogging Black Tide is still rather dead.

 

 

Agree, though there times when walking on the field of battle is effective.

 

2b- Yup.  They've been kinda replaced by Stratagems, which do have similarities to what the old formations could do.  The general "I wanna win" trick these days isn't in formations, but ally 'soup.'  Basically, that means taking Guard, sprinkling in a few Templar units as a garnish, and calling it a Templar army to appease your guilt...

 

 

The danger in "soup" is the dilution of command and control as well focus. A "jack of all trades" is truly master of none. It is important for Templars to remember what our strengths are, what the weaknesses of the enemy are, and exploit their shortcomings to our advantage.
 

 

Oh, as something of an upside, you've probably seen all this Primaris stuff.  Well the good news is that they aren't necessary.  There are good Primaris units, but they are fairly well balanced against other units in our Dex- not underpriced or superior in all regards to Marines Classic, so you can skip them without losing much of anything.

 

 

As with any new addition to an armory, there are benefits and some questions. My personal experience is that Intercessors, Reivers, Hellblasters, and possibly the Inceptors are worth taking IF you want to add some Primaris units to your crusade. As Brother Firepower has stated, you are you obligated to include them.

 

Since you mentioned FW units, I must say that unfortunately, the early assessment of those units is a mixed bag. The good ones are really good...in fact, I might say that they are too good (e.g. Xiphon fighter) and resurrect the old spectre of FW not being balanced. There is a question as to whether enough play testing was done on the FW units, so don't be surprised if you experience more pushback on using them in less than open games because many of the concerns are valid.

 

This is a shame because the hobby had made great strides towards the integration of FW and GW models and I feel like we have taken a step back. So use with caution.

 

Again, welcome back brother.

 

There is much to absorb. Take your

[Firepower]

 

Secondly, we have access to an armory that is significantly larger than in previous editions. Some prefer the old ways, others have embraced the increase in our abilities to bring the Emperor's Holy Wrath upon the weak, the treacherous, and the foul.

 

*******

 

 

In exchange, Whirlwinds have stepped up to the plate and perform well until the weapons recalibration for the Vindicator can be corrected.

 

 

Case in point.  Although there are no mentions in our true scriptures that exclude Thunderfires...at least not by name. 

 

But as a venerable Chaplain, stubborn adherence to the Old Ways and paddlin' the heresies of modern diversions from the path is my sworn duty, and I perform it with pride. 

 

As for our Chapter Tactic of re-rolling charges, it helps us get into a melee, but with all the change to assault we don't have much punch once we're there.  That's the root of the problem.  I've yet to field my recent Sword Brethren Lightning Claw spam squad though.  That may prove interesting.

 

I almost forgot, every Chapter has one Stratagem unique to them, and ours is a 4+ chance to stop a psychic power (while others get only a 5+ chance with Librarians).  The catch is that it uses a precious command point, and you can only use any given Stratagem once in a turn, so enemies with psychic spam won't be overly bothered.

 

Also, as a quick note on list building, the Hunter Killer Missiles on vehicles are now a nice cheap 6 points a pop, and great anti-vehicle additions if you lean towards an assault army with lots of transports and little in the way of anti-tank units.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Firepower

[Honda]

But as a venerable Chaplain, stubborn adherence to the Old Ways and paddlin' the heresies of modern diversions from the path is my sworn duty, and I perform it with pride. 

 

 

You really do enjoy that aspect of your job, don't you? :P

 

As for our Chapter Tactic of re-rolling charges, it helps us get into a melee, but with all the change to assault we don't have much punch once we're there.  That's the root of the problem.  I've yet to field my recent Sword Brethren Lightning Claw spam squad though.  That may prove interesting.

 

 

I'm very curious to hear about how this does. I think one of things we have to get used to is that there are only so many "assault" type units in our codex and they are by no means specialists as Firepower has been saying.

 

I do think that TH/SS termies are our assault unit. I also feel that standard termies fit into that role, but are more effective in their job when they operate with a squad of TH/SS. The standard termies provide a lot of powerfist attacks and I use those a lot. I also like the amount of lead they can put down range.

 

But then, I've always been a termie nut.

 

I almost forgot, every Chapter has one Stratagem unique to them, and ours is a 4+ chance to stop a psychic power (while others get only a 5+ chance with Librarians).  The catch is that it uses a precious command point, and you can only use any given Stratagem once in a turn, so enemies with psychic spam won't be overly bothered.

 

 

This point is very true. For someone with no psychic support, we are vulnerable to a lot of the armies that can put out high volumes of Smite. However, 8th wouldn't be the first edition where we supplemented our forces with a Culexus.

 

But I agree it is an issue we face.

[Firepower]

I also have a Cataphractii squad coming in the mail that I got for $35 on ebay :)  I haven't a clue how to equip them just yet, but I got thrashed in melee by a guy supporting them with a Termie Chaplain...and I also just so happen to have one of those in need of painting!

[redmapa]

In my experience a pair of Lighting Claws are probably the best weapon for close combat, extra attacks and rerolling to wound are heckin' brutal and my Tartaros and Cataphractii squad have done very well with them amd I havent even given them any buffs. 

[Aegir_Einarsson]

I would place Helbrecht near, for. Both. Re-roll to hit, And +1 str.

[Dosjetka]

This is a true statement. I do not think it is a bad thing because we have tremendous firepower at our disposal as well.

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call Firepower "tremendous" but aye, he does a decent job around here. :P

[Firepower]

"Decent" he says. This is no minor duty, good sir. I'll have you know that paddlin' elbow is a serious burden on my servos.

 

But Firepower endures, for the good of the Chapter!

[Schlitzaf]

Just to add what others have said while we lost Vows, Hand Grenade and SB, compared to our Codex and then once again our chapter tactics changed in 8th to reroll charge. And focus more on point one of your question. Adding my two cents.

 

Crusader Squads are the best MEQ Troop Choice bar maybe Grey Hunters (your splitting hairs over which is surperior). Our Crusaders are point for point at 5 Man MSU, as efficient as Devestator Squad with Double Lascannon or 4 Heavy Bolter (assuming Lascannon or HvyBolter and Double Plasma), our Tide Squads are as efficient as JetVangaurd per point spent by Raw Attack (assuming equal Neo-Init), and our 10 Man (6-4) Squads are only 2ish Marines more expensive than Scout Squads for better durability and more specials.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340107-tactical-squad-variants-and-analysis/ (If curious on in-depth math look here)

 

Our Chapter Relic makes 1 Character Aura the equivalent to Aura Range of Two Characters. And finally the Emperor’s Champion and Cenos enables cheap Vangaurd/Speciality Detachment. Our Tactics aren’t the best neither are they worst. Your basically getting a free 10 Points when we compare ourselves to similar upgrades. Also Helbrect is awesome for smaller forces and Grimaldus is solid for tide armies. While our warlord trait is meh, it can prevent folks from leaving combat which is nice. And finally we have one of the best ability to deny (Once per a physic phase).

 

Basically as an army, Black Templars are best we been sense losing our Codex. Our Crusader Squads remains awesome, and are essentially a mini Codex in one Unit. The one unit we lack that we should (without making up new units), and not currently mechanically represented is Biker Crusaders. The Durandal Dreadnought is basically an Ironclad, SB can be used as Company Veterans, Helbrect Neophyte Banner Bearer can be a regular Company or Chapter Ancient. Option wise we lost Crusader Seals and Holy Hand Grenade. But in 8th, we are better then we’ve been for awhile.

 

The overall answer, is we are whatever you want us to be. Our force is skewed to midfield shoot/assault role. The best ‘builds’ for our chapter will leverage the invisible second half of our chapter tactics. The Best Tactical Variant in the Game (except maybe Grey Hunters). Either leveraging counter assault Crusader 5 Man in Razorspam or 5-4 Rhino Units with Characters or 13-15 Tide Squad. Then using our Helm to make one Characters equivalent to two.

Edited January 2, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Firepower]

How does heroic intervention stop a unit from escaping combat? 

[Schlitzaf]

How does heroic intervention stop a unit from escaping combat? :huh:

They flee 6” away, (your not allowed to advance when fleeing). At end of charge phase that unit is 6” away from our character. You heroic intervention back into combat. It’s presumably meant to emmulate our old add d3 to sweeping advance.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Schlitzaf, which Crusade thread is yours? I kinda wanna read some of your battle reports.

[Schlitzaf]

Dalthus Crusade; I don’t have any battle reports currently. I could write a few of them up for those curious. Sense I remember enough from my various games to put something down (something being the equivalent to 2-3 paragraphs).

 

It’s somethings I always mean to do never get around to it. I play 1-2 games a week and can start recording them. Or taking down notes atleast.

Edited January 2, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Aegir_Einarsson]

But there need to be any charges declared in that particular charge phase. Because it triggers HI (If I'm correct), and that unit still must be closest (again if I'm correct).

 

One thing -> Enemy model must be in 6" range to make HI, or it can be 8", and I can move up to 6"?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I would just be interested to see how your Math hammer plays out in practice.