How do you feel about Necron lore?

[Aothaine]

Completely agree, and it would have been far better if they had built on that. Under Oldcrons, the lords and ladies under the C'tan did have personalities and free will. After all, they were the ones who acquiesced to the metal, and who brought the C'tan to corporeality.

 

Oldcrons with their Cthulian inspiration were meant to show the terror of logic and the insanity of science when taken to their extremes; as the antithesis of hot-blooded life and emotion, and the warp. They were the other side of the equation of logic vs emotion, the other participant of an insane war waged since the very beginning of time between immaterium and material that now at the end of the 41st millennium is beginning its final phase. The other end of a string tugging at the soul of humanity and the Imperium; they are the reflection and promise of the terrors of technology that helped break our lost golden age and had us flee back into the safety of barbarism, and gave the Dark Age of Technology its name.

 

What do I mean by logic taken to its extreme? The Necrons are the logical conclusion of putting survival above all else, and implementing whatever technology, science or policies without moral compunction to ensure it. What is a soul but a fairytale; what does the individual consciousness mean with all its messy transients of suffering and emotion in the face of continued concrete existence. Science gives no thought to such matters, only the unblemished truth of survival through continued power. The C'tan are the apex predators in the galaxy, the gods of darwinism that logically should have the right to rule and survive above all else by their sheer might. The evolutionary imperative of survival of the fittest is a truth, not a belief.

 

The Necrons will cleanse the galaxy of its messy chaos, and put it to order. Then they will make a desert, and call it peace. Then they will begin the preparations to ensure their survival beyond the heat-death of the universe trillions of years into the future - the real concern of their their C'tan masters. While the C'tan all enjoy the taste of mortal cattle, it is a transient pleasure they enjoy as their position as apex predators. It is only logical. It is also insane.

 

I would have liked to have had both this over-arching unique faction identity, and the best parts of the new fluff - having the cake and eating it. I like the insanity that their long hibernation has brought, and most of thetraits introduced into the Retcrons would easily be ported to the base of the previous fluff.

 

Different lords' characters would put a different emphasis on any number of aspects of the Necron race and the C'tan they are dedicated to - omnicide, preparation for the far future, scientific experimentation/data, insanity, symmetry and order, the peace of silence, the cloying suffocating unnatural presence of emotionless pariahs, etc.

 

A lord who can't stand the discordant noise of imperfect organic life, and is driven to purge everything till he can only hear the silence of the desert, or another who is driven to scientifically catalogue and dissect every specimen of life before it is purged. A lady who is obsessed in maintaining geometric precision in everything. etc...

 

So, no Tomb Kings in Space for me please. A threat of existential dread and looming terror, that combines myriad sci-fi and philosophical tropes into something unique, yes.

 

This is a great analysis of the Necrons for me and if I ended up picking them up I wouldn't be too upset with the lore changes. This way of thinking alone allows me to build my Necrons the way I want and give them the personality and goals that will fit me and my desires for them. I loved the old lore,  a lot, but I can also see it as kind of the reaction of the first encounters with Necrons and the more experience that the Imperium gets with them, the more Necron culture is revealed.

[Captain Idaho]

I think I can words to why I don't like the changes - the Necrons started out as an ancient Elder race who fought the other Elder race for galactic supremacy. They've now been changed to the equivalent of the Tau, Orks and Humans - another alien race fighting it out.

 

They used to be unknown and couldn't be stopped in equal numbers due to their technological superiority but now they blow up just as easy as others. They're not unstoppable red harvest but another mix of eclectic personalities who want an empire.

 

What made Necrons stand out was their alien feel. Now they're just metal humans.

[Indefragable]

Completely agree, and it would have been far better if they had built on that. Under Oldcrons, the lords and ladies under the C'tan did have personalities and free will. After all, they were the ones who acquiesced to the metal, and who brought the C'tan to corporeality...

<snipped to save space>

...So, no Tomb Kings in Space for me please. A threat of existential dread and looming terror, that combines myriad sci-fi and philosophical tropes into something unique, yes.

 

<slow clap>

 

Well said.

 

There is a beautiful (in a grimdark way) balance between the two extremes of the Tyranids and the Necrons: both are (or should be) existential threats. One is biological needs taken to the extreme, the other is the non-biological taken to the extreme. That the unnatural one (Necrons) is somehow more relatable is terrifying in its own way.

[Skaorn]

I agree that the oldcrons were the same kind of threat as the Nids, lacked character, and would have been hard to expand on. I'm also not thrilled with the new stuff either. I think playing them out as an existential threat that screws with people rather than just wipes them out can still work. Go heavy into them harvesting people for unknown reasons and really play on an alien abduction horror movie feel. The dynasties could still exist with the Lords with their own inscrutable plans they've had going since the War of Heaven, just more interested in their science projects than rivalries. They'd at least be more like Deep Ones with C'tan as Shuggoths.

[Lord_Caerolion]

For another good example of Newcrons done well, take a look into their portrayal in the Deathwatch supplement "the Outer Reach". It reads like a Cthulhu story, a group of Inquisitors called the Dead Cabal investigating the disturbing pattern of dead worlds on the fringe of the Sector, along with the raving predictions and prophecies being told by the doom-sayers., in what the Dead Cabal call the Dark Pattern, which foretells the destruction of the Sector.

The Necrons themselves, the Suhbekhar Dynasty, don't exactly have a Tomb World, that's far too easily invaded. Instead, they have a pocket dimension located in the centre of a sun, where they have been hibernating away the centuries. Their Phaeron, Ahmontekh, the Crimson Scythe, the Star-Slayer, has yet to wake, although his Legions have begun to wake, the Overlord-Regent has, and the Legions have begun stirring.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't see how that is better than the old stuff. The older style could actually do that and still have the great mysterious force arrayed against the Imperium.

 

Whatever happened to the Red Harvest? The great plan to use humanity as cattle?

 

Sure it's cool to have a Tomb World in a star etc but the Necrons are still metal humans in the 40K universe now.

[Lord Marshal]

I'm torn on the topic, as I get the feeling most people are.

 

On the one hand, another "unstoppable and evil threat the Imperium is doomed from" is was pretty blah, but at least it was consistent with the idea that the galaxy - even after the Great Crusade - is chalk full of xenos threats who want to drag down the Imperium kicking and screaming. 

 

On the other, they're definietly full of far more character now. I actually quite like that some Overlords aren't all genocidal fruitloops and subscribe to their own kind of honour, or would be considered pretty benevolent leaders by their own race's standards. The problem is, as others have mentioned, it made them feel TOO human. There's nothing about the Necron personalities that really feels alien at all (beyond being chucked in metal bodies) and you could change 'Necrotyr' with 'ancient humanity' and absolutely nothing would change. It's probably the biggest contributor to the "they're Tomb Kings in space" issue and why the lore feels kind off... off, even when it works.

[Minsc]

I prefer "Newcrons" over "Oldcrons", but I can understand why people prefer the "Oldcrons".

 

While the old Necrons seemed like a larger threat to the galaxy, and where scarier due to being silent, unfeeling, unrelenting killer robots, this very thing made them lack character, which made them totally unappealing for me.

 

I (overall) like the fluff of Newcrons however (even if it is abit generic at times), and I'm seriously considering starting a Necron army, something I would never consider before the 5th Ed. Codex.

[Skaorn]

I agree that the space tomb kings was kind of disappointing. I personally would have dug an imperial Chinese look myself.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Wrong part to focus on, Captain. It's not that it's awesome because they're inside a star, it's that half the book is written in the same style as the thematic awesomeness of the Oldcron codex. To the Imperium, these are Oldcrons. Hell, they don't even really know they are Necrons. It's only us that gets to see "behind the curtain", and know the truth of what's killing the planets.

[Captain Idaho]

But that's just it - we're not the Imperium. The feeling and interpretation we get from a race or army matters not what faceless citizens of the Imperium think.

 

WE don't get the feeling they're just like the Old style. We get a feeling that humans turned metal with some new wargear.

 

***

 

There's nothing to say that the lack of personality of the Old Necrons couldn't be amended easily. Say the C'tan turned out to reproduce or more survived than we thought. They in turn impart their essence in Necrons Lord bodies as avatars. Easy.

[Skaorn]

I don't really get where you're coming from. In order to get a Lovecraftian vibe you would absolutely have to view the Necrons from a human perspective. To not do that strips away the alienness.

[Schlitzaf]

So I much prefer the new lore for the old lore, the question of individuality aside, I find the OldCron thematically opposed to what 40k setting is. And I know this will sound weird, but because to its core it is Lovecraftian, OldCron represented a theme that didn’t belong.

 

That humanity didn’t matter, the elder didn’t matter, the Orks don’t matter and Tau certainly didn’t matter. In many OldCron and OldTau even represent two parallel issues of the same problem, but OldTau didn’t do it at expense of the universe.

 

OldCron (and Tyranid I’ll why I don’t count them in a second) are a race of inscrutable automations, that exist for only purpose, extermination of all life. That is all and good, but then comes the second issue, OldCron Lore was the mortal universe existed on a timer. Eventually the Necrons will come and scour all existence.

 

The C’tan once fully awakened alongside their legions will be able to dominate all of Mortal existence. The Void Dragon will be the end of Mars. And we cannot do to stop them. Only delay the inevitable. That too me is not Warhammer 40,000.

 

Warhammer 40,000 and the larger Warhammer Franchise is rooted, in that “We can”. During Warhammer End Times, while the non-Chaos Forces failed, their was a chance, a real chance in universe, we could stop the clock. The Emperor and the Astartes, being the pinnacle of the humanity military prowess, showed that we could fight that which bumps in the night. As long we believed that we could.

 

The fact the first major skirmish with the Necrons, was a conflict with the SoB, almost served the underlying theme “nothing can save you”. And mechanically in game, phase weaponry ignored invulnerable saves further pushed that idea. Then of course “Will be Back” so on and so forth. To how phase out worked, you didn’t win the battle, the Necrons lost the battle.

 

Now Tyranids of course represented the same theme, but with one key difference. While the Hive Fleets in time will arrive to our galaxy and go munch munch, it isn’t certain. Or to put it another way, the various 40k races, have demonstrated time and time again, we can beat the Hive Mind. We have endured Hive Fleet after Hive Fleet, while it gets stronger and more intelligent, so does Doomsday in DC comics (well not always more intelligent). And the in universe expert on the Tyranids, Kryptman said all of the (Imperium or major sector, I forget which), must be made ready for us to have a chance.

 

Keyword is “have a chance”. Defeat is not definitive, only likely. Orks and Wraaagh! Are similar, if some Warboss unites the Ork Race, will Imperium and others fallen? Most likely but as shown time and time again, a Wraaagh! can be blunted and defeated. To bring this back to my original point, Necrons as Lovecraftian beings, are based on principles, humanity’s and other Mortal species aren’t pathetic, we cannot understands these beings of a higher plane and our God’s/Beings of Worship are powerless. Which undermines two of the greatest event shows in 40k universe at large.

 

The first, is the Fall. Eldar created a being so powerful, it transformed the very primal nature ignored the universe. A Lovecraftian story have Slaanash be infinitesimally weaker than the Deceiver. But point of the Fall is what we as mortals can do if do not keep vigil, and don’t fall to our primal emotions.

 

The second, or really a series of seconds, is the creation of the Primarchs to the Siege of Terra. The Emperor had a dream, and a real tangible goal. That dream of unifing humanity and extension ending forever the threat represented by the warp. Forces the Chaos Gods to take notice and try to disrupt it in every way he could. The stories that follow is one every 40k fan knows, but two parts of the Heresy are specifically important.

 

1) The Custodes vs Astartes. The duality represented by these two organizations is important. Custodes fight as individuals and Astartes as a squad. Who is seen as the surperior being? The Custodes. The Custodes alongside the IG, demonstrate the individual matter. Astartes are Imperium faceless enforcers, compared to Custodes and IG

2) The Duel between Emperor and Horus. Unless the lore has changed, part of that moment is Emperor banished his remaining humanity to fell Horus. Not because his humanity was weak, but because it was strong. It was so strong, he couldn’t bring himself to kill his favored son. And that he, the Emperor, favored logic and reason, couldn’t overcome his humanity and had to banish it, to do what must be done.

 

If we as a species, don’t matter, the sacrifices we make are meaningless. While the Universe is a Grim, and there is only war. There is war, because the fate is not decided, the die has been cast, but it’s still rolling. The OldCron Lore, for me says “No die has stopped rolling, all those losses, sacrificed and more we have learned are meaningless.”

 

Now, pardon my tangent, the final thing I want to end on. For me OldCron Lore ended, in C:SM, 5th Ed, and the conflict with the World Engine. Because this massive super weapon, having destroyed countless imperial forces was finally defeated. Not because it phased out, or that it decided to simply stop fighting.

 

But because, 1000 individuals, all made a single decision. And for that all decision, almost all 1000 would pay the ultimate price. The World Engine story showed the Necrons could be truly defeated. But only at a heavy cost. It also represented a conflict where there was a clear goal and objective. The enemy could be understood if only in a vague sense of understood. Seriously pardon the tangents, but yeah that is why I dislike OldCron and prefers NewCron lore.

[Panzer]

Imo the Oldcrowns were perfect for a NPC threat lurking in the fluff. However that's not what most players are interested in to play themselves even if they enjoy them that way (me included) so the decision to change that to sell them as a PC race people actually want to identify with made sense from GWs pov.

The Newcrons aren't bad either and it's kinda obvious they tried to draw some of the Tomb Kings player to 40k, however I have to say, I as super big Tomb Kings fan am really not interested in playing Newcrons. It's just not the same. And on top of that ... somehow they managed to make Tomb Kings feel more alien and threatening than Newcrons lol

[Minsc]

 ... somehow they managed to make Tomb Kings feel more alien and threatening than Newcrons lol

Technically Tomb Kings aren't a PC race anymore ;)

[Panzer]

 

 ... somehow they managed to make Tomb Kings feel more alien and threatening than Newcrons lol

Technically Tomb Kings aren't a PC race anymore

 

I never said they still are.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't really get where you're coming from. In order to get a Lovecraftian vibe you would absolutely have to view the Necrons from a human perspective. To not do that strips away the alienness.

That's the point. The new Necrons fluff in the Codex is certainly not written from the ignorant Imperial perspective but an omnipresent narration.

[Skaorn]

 

I don't really get where you're coming from. In order to get a Lovecraftian vibe you would absolutely have to view the Necrons from a human perspective. To not do that strips away the alienness.

That's the point. The new Necrons fluff in the Codex is certainly not written from the ignorant Imperial perspective but an omnipresent narration.

Ok, I was reading "we" as the reader, not as the Necrons.

[Petitioner's City]

Could they bring back Pariahs within the new Necrons?

 

 

I didn't own 3rd edn Necron codex but remember loving these guys & Dawn of War used them in a nice Locutus-of-Borg way...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvNn_vJy0BM

 

Actually, I guess the old Necrons really were the Borg...

[Bishoujo]

While I think the new fluff is fine, I also very much enjoyed the old fluff.  "But they're just silver Tyranids" wasn't a negative for me.  On the contrary, I loved that duo existing in the universe.  We (mortal races) faced not one impending, unstoppable doom - but two.  How does that even work?  It's one thing to put all your eggs in one basket to stop the apocalypse, but when you have multiple apocalypses, how do you prepare for that?  One is technology taken to its extreme while the other is biology taken to its extreme.  Two sides of the same coin.

 

I always found that fascinating.  Both of these forces wanted us gone, but they weren't exactly working together.  In fact, they mostly avoided each other at the time.  Why?  What was the connection?  How did a hive fleet instinctively know to avoid a tomb world, even though there was biomass on that world above the dormant tomb?  Neither side felt fear.  Neither side felt pain.  Neither side could be negotiated with.  What happens when they finally come face to face and their goals bring them into an unavoidable conflict?

 

Those were the mysteries of 3rd edition that made me choose the Necrons as my first 40K army.  I miss those days of fan theories and wonderment.

[Indefragable]

I feel that the Custodes are sort of the Imperial Necrons in the same sense: they were these mighty, massive warriors with wargear no one else had...but they only hovered around the Imperial Palace and as such no one really knew their true capabilities....in a scary way.

 

Now that they've been turned into a full-fledged Faction with their own tanks, so much of my interest in them has vanished.

 

Necrons, however, I kind of strattle the line between the unknowable horror of Old Crons and the zany egos of the New Crons. Both have merits.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Oh, if only we could have back Pariahs.

 

As you may have guessed, I have a fondness for the old lore. That said, I do like the new lore too, as there is much more place for My Dudes actually having something to them beyond being clockwork automatons obeying ancient decress without knowing why, or even really being aware of anything beyond their orders.

 

Which is why I love the Maynarkh. They're a little of column A, a little of column B (I dare say, column A as seen through column B on the whole).

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

I like both old and new. It would make sense that the first wave of necrons would be mindless and automated, while it’s equally believable that as time goes on and leaders awaken they would resemble the current state.

 

Nothing stops people from having an army representing a malfunctioning tomb world that still has the night of the living ‘crons feel to it. That’s the beauty of 40k.

In the (slightly older) lore, there were Tomb Worlds that went bonkers and ended up controlled entirely by the automatic systems. Those certainly have the feel of the old lore, being nothing but mindless creatures endlessly carrying out the order to destroy all non-Necrons who come near, and harvesting flesh for whatever sinister purpose the controlling system has cooked up.

[Captain Idaho]

Malfunctioning Tomb worlds has little resemblance to the old lore. The story used to be about a terrible dark and powerful entity leading the remnants of a powerful race. The story had a mysterious plan of a the C'tan, hinted at in the Codex that could be gleaned by Necrons fans but was often missed by players who never collected them. The story also had battles and events with unknown agenda and confusing purpose.

 

The plot progression was set up magnificently. Remember the bit with the Farseer who had a ship in Orbit of the orphan planet the Imperium used to train Culexus Assassins? He had a flash from the future showing Eldar suffering and wiped out by a mysterious foe if they proceeded with their plan, so the Eldar aborted the plan.

 

Lots of plot and little text. Clever writing from a brilliant design studio.

 

All of this was gold and a set up for future releases or a campaign.

 

But no, we don't get that any more.

[Captain Idaho]

There is little real mystery left. *shrugs*

 

The Dyson sphere, Tyranids avoided etc is ended since that was a C'tan thing. The Void Dragon on Mars... maybe they will make something of it but doubtful it's anything more than a C'tan shard. There's certainly no more mysterious abductions and experimentation or Pariahs for us to discuss.

 

Granted the Silent King will return.

 

Personally I'd like (along with new models) a new Codex that creates a schism between them - independent Dynasties that broke their programming against the Triarchs vs the Silent King vs the Dynasties that reforged the C'tan shards to oppose the Silent King (those who broke the loyalty programming first using the C'tan).

 

That's a way to have all of us appeased of course.

 

***

 

I saw on YouTube folks claiming the C'tan can't be on the table as they're gods therefore they can't be reforged... easily solved. C'tan are able to poor a portion of their power into a Necrodermis and create avatars under their thrall. Like Greater daemons.