Why Power Armour troops are mediocre and what can be done?

[totgeboren]

chapter master 454, that suggestion would not make the iconic Space Marine with a boltgun (the thing that got many people into the game in the first place) any better. You would simply make it easier to take even less bolter-marines, which of course will make marine armies better since marines with boltguns suck.

 

But I at least would like it if marines with boltguns were useful, since the solution to minimize them is already what people are using to get a bit more milage out of their marine armies. So your solution of giving them more heavy and special weapons doesn't really solve the problem as I see it.

[Gentlemanloser]

And again, if Primaris are the answer. Why are GW refusing to let me have access to them.

 

Id even buy new minis, as i love the look of inceptors and hellblasters are the nuts.

 

But gw have decided for me i don't need any new primaris models for my army...

[Deschenus Maximus]

Bolters definitely need some help.

 

I wouldn't want to be able to replace the boltgun since it is iconic to the Tactical Squad, but having the option of taking a combat knife for the extra attack would be nice.

[Warhead01]

I've skimmed this thread for a while. 

I was at one point thinking about simply fielding then minimum number of troops at the minimum size when first thinking about building a Marine list, something I have never done before as I have for many years fielded as many troop choices as I could even tactical squads.

 

I'm working on my 30K project right now and for me one of the things that got me excited about playing a Legion was being able to take tactical squads 20 models strong. 
I'm wondering if a tactical squad could fill out at 20 would that make it any better in 40K?

Yes, obviously transports for a squad that size would be an issue.  But how much better or worse would it be. 

And about the mixed squad idea. Why not just allow Tac Squads to also buy ccw's.  As the 40K narrative changes over this edition and into next edition, if normal Marines are being replaced/killed off I could imagine this as a codex change approved so chapters deploying "old" Tacs could get more use from them. 

[chapter master 454]

chapter master 454, that suggestion would not make the iconic Space Marine with a boltgun (the thing that got many people into the game in the first place) any better. You would simply make it easier to take even less bolter-marines, which of course will make marine armies better since marines with boltguns suck.

 

But I at least would like it if marines with boltguns were useful, since the solution to minimize them is already what people are using to get a bit more milage out of their marine armies. So your solution of giving them more heavy and special weapons doesn't really solve the problem as I see it.

 

Iconic yes, effective no. Boltguns sadly suck and always did suck really even prior to 8th just it was less pronouced. Back then AP5 was laughed at as a mediocre AP and made little difference. When facing guardsman it was the same story as it is now, they stay in cover and have a 4+ save. Nothing really changed just they got told their flak armour now means something less than nothing. To be fair, that was needed as most armies literally could forget about their armour save stat to the point I had games where I had to remind some people of their armour save vs. certain weapons.

The problem with boltguns is the same as marines, lore vs. game. Boltguns fire (according to lore) gyro-stablised rocket propelled depleted uranium high explosive caseless ammunition. However in game they have the stat-line of what could be considered high-powered ammunitions like .50 calibre. Even artworks reinforce this bar the barrel diameter which is a massive disconnect. The barrels diameter and smooth-bore appearance does indicate the former mentioned lore description (makes sense, the projectile is gyro-stabilised and thus spins by itself and needs no rifling) however most artwork never takes that into account and only the barrel remains the same with most depicting magazines holding what looks like standard rifle casing coupled with the bolt racking lever being viewed as the ejection port for cases that don't exist and cases that are not sized according to what lore states. In fact I would even go as far as to say that boltguns shouldn't have 'rapid fire' as their type and should realistically be considered at most assault weapons. However I digress upon this tangent whose only objective was to point out how the iconic bolter has seen neither respect in lore, artwork or game regarding it's ability where the main icon of the game really is space marines in general, whether or not they have bolt weapons in hand doesn't matter as in today's world I would believe a vast majority of people would regonise a space marine of warhammer 40,000.

 

There could be any number of solutions presented as many have stated:

Buff Standard marines

Nerf other armies who are dominating

Changes to squad allowances and points regarding weapons

Change weapon statlines (mainly of the 'iconic' boltgun)

Make primaris and old marines one in the same effectively

 

All number of options we can explore and personally feel is justified. I personally feel the solution I offered gives us what tacticals are meant to be: the unit you can put anywhere and will be decent. As it stands there aren't tactical and more "Strategic allowances of casualties" squads which is largely what they are if fielded as 10s and otherwise "Special weapon" squad with giving them a heavy weapon most likely the worst idea you could do unless you have 10 points left and literally have already strapped the extra storm bolter and HK to all your tanks already and thus the heavy bolter is the only thing left to possibly add.

 

Tacticals are by far the most hurting for something to call their own otherwise they are just bland nothing units with not much going for them. heck, even eldar guardians have a better defined role in what they can do than tacticals (However that may be unfair as eldar do get better stratagems too, one of which just lets them pop a unit wherever they like with deep strike thus meaning you have a 40 shot bomb of better-bolter statline shots).

[Wargamer]

The buff I would suggest is to give the bolter AP -1. Bolt Rifles still get the extra range so there's still a reason to bring them. If there's a problem with throwing the other factions out of whack, just replace bolters with "Astartes Bolters" to distinguish from the ones built for humans to use.

[Captain Idaho]

Primaris aren't the answer. They're a speciality unit. Intercessors are good and useful as -1AP is lovely but S4 is the same as Tactical Marines.

 

What makes the Intercessors reasonable is they can always plunk away at targets, knocking off the odd wound here and there. Plus their resistance to small arms fire due to twice the wounds.

 

What makes Tacticals reasonable is dual special weapons, heavy weapons and numbers.

 

It's not points prohibitive to have 25-30 in an army and still have teeth.

 

In fact I just had a game of great success despite poor initial deployment and play by just having a large number of models left.

 

People seem to speak in hyperbole when making their point nowadays (myself certainly not an exception - drives my missus crazy) but from listening you'd think Space Marines died by the dozen as soon as anyone started firing.

 

Ain't true.

[Beams]

The buff I would suggest is to give the bolter AP -1. Bolt Rifles still get the extra range so there's still a reason to bring them. If there's a problem with throwing the other factions out of whack, just replace bolters with "Astartes Bolters" to distinguish from the ones built for humans to use.

That doesn't work lore wise. If a stormbolter can be used by a Ministorum priest, a inquistion acolyte, a sister of battle, inqusitior and commisar Yarrick, with no Ill effects, than you can't tell me that any of the above are us in ng weaker regular Bolters than space Marines. Sure the spacemarine Bolter is bigger and has more recoil, but thata mostly because the spacemarine is bigger, and it allows the space Marine Bolter to be sturdier to put up with the fact that it has to be lugged around by a 8 foot tall steroid mutant as opposed to a 5'10 religious priest.

[Gentlemanloser]

Cap Primaris cant be *a* sepcialist unit.

 

There's a whole diverse range of them, covering a multitude of roles

 

You could say that each individual Primaris unit is more specialised than the general Tacticals.

 

But let's be honest. What makes a tactical squad a generalist? The special/heavy weapon option. That's a weak option to fulfill a role.

 

Especially as once chosen at list building you have effectively hammered in the role.

 

During The game a Tac squad is no more a generalist unit than Intercessors.

 

You built your tac squad with a heavy bolter. They can't really do anything to heavy armour any more. No general use there.

 

Annecdotally. My marines die by the dozen the moment the dark reapers start firing.

 

Damn them reapers.

 

Edit. Now Aggressors seem like a great Primaris generalist unit. Great anti infantry shooting. Heavy CC through powerfists.

[Beams]

...I feel like everyone dies when dark reapers start shooting.

[kombatwombat]

Primaris aren't the answer.

And why not exactly? If you give all Marines the +1W/A ‘Primaris’ profile boost and bulked them up a few points, Marines might perform as expected.

 

Tacticals would then provide the ‘flexible’ role of being able to mix up weapon loadouts (this goes for Devastators too), whereas Primaris have the niche of getting slightly more powerful weaponry on every model (at appropriate costs) but being locked into one loadout for every model.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

The buff I would suggest is to give the bolter AP -1. Bolt Rifles still get the extra range so there's still a reason to bring them. If there's a problem with throwing the other factions out of whack, just replace bolters with "Astartes Bolters" to distinguish from the ones built for humans to use.

That doesn't work lore wise. If a stormbolter can be used by a Ministorum priest, a inquistion acolyte, a sister of battle, inqusitior and commisar Yarrick, with no Ill effects, than you can't tell me that any of the above are us in ng weaker regular Bolters than space Marines. Sure the spacemarine Bolter is bigger and has more recoil, but thata mostly because the spacemarine is bigger, and it allows the space Marine Bolter to be sturdier to put up with the fact that it has to be lugged around by a 8 foot tall steroid mutant as opposed to a 5'10 religious priest.

 

 

Except Astartes bolters essentially are an entirely different category of gun from what the Guard use. Sisters are probably closer, it's just that in a d6 system where most stats are basically capped at 10, there's not enough of a noticeable difference between the two, like the old argument as to why Orks and Guardsmen are both S3, not S4.

In the RPG Black Crusade, which had both Astartes and standard humans available as characters, they differentiated the two by having standard and "Legion" weapons, in which they were the same sort of gun, but the Legion variant did more damage, and counted as a weapon-class up when used by a standard human, so the Legion Bolter became a Heavy weapon when used by a traitor Guardsman, etc. It's just that, so far, it hasn't been portrayed as being different enough on the tabletop-scale to make a difference.

[Claws and Effect]

Call bolters "Astartes Bolter", make them Assault 2. To reflect that between their strength, their armor, and the heads up display in their helmet they can fire full auto on the move. Let Astartes storm bolters rapid fire at full range if they didn't move.

 

Make Marines Strength 5 to reflect that their armor enhances their already significant strength and give them combat knives instead of bolt pistols as standard equipment. Since fluff-wise they are supposed to keep their combat knife from their Scout days anyway.

 

Give them a 1CP strategem to charge after advancing.

 

Scouts would still be Strength 4 because they aren't wearing power armor.

 

Terminator armor should be T5.

 

I would be on board with that. Wouldn't be overpowered, and gives them a more defined role of a mobile objective grabber.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Maybe if Orks are similarly given +1S, to make Boyz S4? Astartes shouldn't be that much stronger than Orks, really.

[Claws and Effect]

Maybe if Orks are similarly given +1S, to make Boyz S4? Astartes shouldn't be that much stronger than Orks, really.

Increase Ork strength as they go up in rank. Orks keep growing indefinitely and the biggest ones are in charge. S4 Boyz, S5 Nobz, and S6 Bosses. Grots can be S3.

[Captain Idaho]

A friend of mine remarked that my Terminators were oddly only T4. He's a fairly new player and looked at it in relation to everything he's experienced so far.

 

Kinda telling that it's mostly out perspective that's sticking us to the same statlines all the time.

 

***

 

Regarding Primaris - yes I referred to Primaris once where I was referring to Intercessors, though I did point out it was in the context of discussion about Intercessors and my next comment mentioned them directly.

 

Intercessors are very specific in their roles. You start relying on them to be your Heavy weapons and you'll struggle.

 

Tactical Marines are specific in many ways too, as Bolters are Bolters and thus should be killing infantry primarily.

 

However, as I maintain, using dual special in the form of combis and adding heavy weapons to larger squads allows for a decent avenue to do damage in support of something else.

 

It's the attritional war. Tactical Marines, including in larger numbers (anything less than 25 is not considered a lot in my opinion) have Space Marines staying power and can take casualties and still fire back with Heavy/special/combi weapons.

[Gentlemanloser]

Aye. But why a dual Combi Plas Tac unit, when you can take a Hellblaster unit?

[Deschenus Maximus]

Ork Boyz ARE S4 now, iirc.

[Wargamer]

Aye. But why a dual Combi Plas Tac unit, when you can take a Hellblaster unit?

Because plasma doesn't pump out enough dice to thin a horde, and doesn't inflict enough wounds to drop armour.

 

Remember what I said about people thinking only Marines exist in 40k?

[Gentlemanloser]

And a Tac Squad with dual Combi Plasma does?

[Wargamer]

And a Tac Squad with dual Combi Plasma does?

Yes, because bolters are more point-efficient for killing a horde than plasma, and combi-weapons can fire both weapons at once, increasing total shots made.

 

Repeat after me: Not. Everyone. Plays. Marines.

[chapter master 454]

And a Tac Squad with dual Combi Plasma does?

 

Not even a devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters do ether. The "anti-horde" dev loadout doesn't even have that going for it and works best against...GASP...MARINES! Dun dun dun! Well would you look at that. A little sarky however does ring true when trying to thing out ork hordes, heavy bolter devastators only really bring marginally better weapons for the job and could REALLY benefit from some blast weapons that aren't firing fart bombs. Plasma Cannons used to be AMAZING, able to being effective vs. all targets bar heavy armour and did lose out a little vs. lighter targets but was still at least respectable. Now it's a joke equal to a lasgun which now has become no longer a joke and more akin to being what everyone wants because of how cheap it is to field them. Oh look at that, full circle.

 

Some seem to advocate that tacticals are fine. No, they are not.

 

Idaho does mention I assume intercessors not being effective anti-tank for good reason and thus uses it as an example of what tacticals should be doing...wait...then aren't intercessors just better for that job then with better range, AP, wounds, attacks and in general EVERYTHING compared to a tactical marine and all we pay is a 5 point tax per model which granted is a lot but out of all the stats they get, we are talking about bolstering a marine by 100% on two stats, increase the range of their gun AND the gun has an AP value that does something all for 5 points? You could easily afford the increase in price by just taking out a tactical squad given weapons and then cut a few weapon upgrades here and there. Note: tacticals are worth 130 points at full while intercessors are worth 180 now. 50 points but those are the wisest 50 points to spend you'll ever do on your troop selection. If you need anti-tank then you've got a whole range of options: Lascannon devastators are pricey at 165 points but will certainly make things they point at scared or you can go with the already mentioned hellblasters. Tanks aren't the problem, they suck worse than tacticals as mentioned and as noted, this debate circles around why do horde armies get a better time than marines? When do we get our time in the god tier spot? Everyone else has, Eldar have been there since they were made and then share it with a few others every now and then. Us marine players are akin to loyalists vs. chaos: being loyalist is literally believing in the weaker side for no reason and should just jump to another army if we want an actually decent codex.

[Gentlemanloser]

Wargamer, and your Armour comment? 

 

Also;

 

Shooting a T3/4+ save 'horde' unit, in RF range.

 

10 x Tacticals with Bolters (130 points)

 

20 Shots, 13 hits, 9 wounds, 4.5 dead (Out of cover and a 5+ save is 6 dead)

 

5 x Hellblasters with Plasma Incinerators (165 points)

 

10 shots, 7 hits, 6 wounds, 6 dead

 

 

So the Hellblasters (while being 35 points more expensive) are just as good, if not *better* anti 'horde' than Bolter Tacticals.  But are also miles better shooting Armour and TEQ.  And with 2W are more durable as they don't lose effectiveness for every wound lost.

 

 

So *WHY* Tacticals?

 

Edit: The Hellblasters also 'support' the other units in your army.  Like Tacticals would.

[Captain Idaho]

Comparing Hellblasters to Tacticals is like comparing Dire Avengers to Dark Reapers.

 

The Tactical Marines contribute to the plasma/melta/whatever in the army through use of their weapon upgrades and do so in the Troops slot.

 

I find it a little absurd people will say "Tactical Marines suck because they're not Hellblasters" in truth.

 

If people want each unit to have a specific role then that's fine. It's your army and Intercessors and Hellblasters for you.

 

If people want a bunch of units with specific roles and then want to add some Troops choices that bolster their numbers and contribute firepower to the niche units then they'll add Tactical Marines.

[Gentlemanloser]

I just find it difficult to accept arguments that Tacs provide 'support' for an army and not other units also provide the same support.  Or that Tacs are good because they can dip into any role, except they can't and at list building stage have to be made just as specialist as the specialist units, but worse at each specialism.

 

If you want Troop slot units specifically, that's a different argument, and goes back to comments about the ease of horde CP generation (which you really want Troop units for...) and Detachments in general.  Where specific armies should probably have specific detachments.  Like the near inability for the Grey Knights to field a Brigade at all.  While IG can easily fit multiple Brigades into a single army.

 

But failings in these systems don't by default make Troop units like Tacticals 'good'.  Only 'required'. ;)

 

It's not that Tacs suck because they're not Hellblasters (but they do!).  It's that Hellblasters are *just as good* shooting the chaff units that Bolters are shooting at.  Plus better at shooting the stuff Bolters are rubbish at.  10 Bolter Tacs aren't really better at shooting chaff units than 5 Hellblasters.  But 5 Hellblasters are much better at shooting other targets.

 

So if you want 'general' shooting, you don't take Bolter Tacs over Hellblasters.  There's no reason too.