Why Power Armour troops are mediocre and what can be done?

[Schlitzaf]

The larger problem is the CP discrepency.

Armies with cheap troops and other throw away units in other slots can easily run brigades for 9CP.

Other armies are limited to battalions at best for 3CP.

There needs to be an Elite to Horde trade off for CP.

Or army specific Detachments...

Edit. Also the S v T change favours hordes over elites as well.

It's generally better to get more attacks at a lower S than less attacks at aslightly higher S.

Then you get 90 S4 shot Gant units. That are immune to moral and have a strat to shoot twice...

You do understand that is 310 Points taking cheapest synapse enabler right? And even using that strategem your are only killing 15ish Marines for an effective expenditure of 350 Points. If you use a Trygon to sneak that is another 130ish. Your spending effectively 500 points. Your Strike Squads at 210. Put out 40 Shots. 26.66 hit, 13.33 wound killing 4.44. At functionally equivalent points 68 > 46 > rerolls > 54 > 27 > 9 Marines Dead. Unless those Gaunts (90 > 45 > 15 > 5 so 20 Marines) your Strike Squads can actually fight (36 > 24 > 12 > 10 Dead Marines. Rerolls on Hit add another 3 Dead Marines). For spending the same points, those Nids aren’t better than your Strike and unlike your Strike. Using same math as above. 54 Hit > 36 Wound > 30 Dead Gaunts. So in comparison those Nids, under similar firepower are worse than your Strike.

 

You haven’t even spent Command Points yet. Horde armies like Gaurd and Nids, need lots of CP so their units are useful. An attack twice strategem is far more useful on a unit like Noise Marines than a unit like Nids. That is why I suspect armies like Nids/Gaurd recieve more CP than Marines. Moral immunity is needed for hordes to be remotely playable. Without it Gaunts/Boyz Units just fall apart and we’ll be back in 7th Edition for those armies.

[Gentlemanloser]

My post wasn't Nids versus GK...

 

And no, Horde armies *do not* need extra CP to make their units worthwhile.  That's a ridiculous argument, and is easily shown as false by the opening post in this thread.  Guardsmen do not need extra CP to outperform Marines.

 

The extra CP is pure bonus.  That can be used on the 'elite' units in those Horde armies instead.

 

Edit: You also miss the reroll 1s to hit and wound that unit can have.

 

Making it 60 hits, 35 wounds and 11.7 Marines dead.  23.4 if they spend *1* CP from the tonnes they have to shoot a second time.

 

23.4 Marines dead.

 

Edit2: Moral immunity is a travesty.  That's why Commisars were nerfed.  That Synapse passed unscathed is a testament to GWs new balance and playtesting. /s

[Captain Idaho]

My position on the topic in general...

 

Players play Kill Hammer. They line up their models against their opponent's lined up models, check out the most efficient manner of dealing death for units X, Y and X then boom. Just roll the dice.

 

What if there's another way? What if you use your Tactical Marines to shoot one Guardsmen squad and assault another? All of a sudden you've just killed or neutered 20 Guardsmen with few if any losses.

 

Simplistic of course and all games go in any direction (your transports might die after all) but the point is; work out how you are going to win. If you can defeat Guardsmen by shooting them then do it. If you need to isolate a section of the board with your main force to bring overwhelming force, do that.

 

And another thing I think Marines players are not doing but should... numbers. You can still have an effective force with 50 odd infantry models, you know. Some can be jump packs, some Terminators. Hell, throw in some bikers.

 

Just don't do what many players do; isolate a single unit they think gives them the most killing power then and make that their army focus. It leads to paper rock scissors, which is a terrible win ratio.

[Schlitzaf]

Gentle and those rerolls of 1 to hit and to wound cost additional points. You literally missed the point, things aren’t in a vacuum. I could have used 3 Interceptor Squads (54 > 36 > 24 > 12 Marines Or 20 Gaurdsman + Charge 1.5 Mortal, 21 > 14 > 7 > 2 or 5). To demonstrate a similar point. The difference is method of engagement. The Gaunts need those points because while they might be point by point more efficient, on the table they drop faster than flies. And their overall stats without CP are worse than an equivalent unit. The Gaurdsman fails to account for that. As I showcased earlier that they a Gaurdsman Force cannot bring to bears it’s guns in an effective manner. (And it be noted those Gaunts are only slightly cheaper than Inquisition Acolytes for similar level of durability and buffs).

 

The 3++ Analysis compares stats not table play ability or table interactions. Where we begin to see how the Mathhammer falls apart. It’s more complicated than simply put the math. And once again when you quote “OP” look at the Points. Those Tyranids points are well within the range of expected average for the expended point allotment.

[Gentlemanloser]

No They don't cost additional points.

 

Reroll to hit from kronos trait.

 

Reroll to wounds from unit size.

[Schlitzaf]

What if they aren’t from Kronos? I prefer Jormagandr personally and 2 15 Man Squads could just be used as 1 30. Through if you add the hits rerolls > 15 > 7.5 > 3.75 > 1.25 or 2.5 dead additional Marines. Not a major difference at the level we are taking apart in this scenerio. And we’ll within the range expected

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

I've not played a lot of 8th, but the thought of a Heavy Bolter being awesome now both scares and excites me. Guardsmen get a 6+ while a marine is reuduced to a lowly 4+... Seems weird, right?

 

All is dust is a quality rule and one that would fit Marines & Terminators well, the problem is as an army-wide rule it's a touch cumbersome (though I realise 1KSons already deal with it, how do you sorcerous lot cope with it currently?)

 

As people have said the obvious route is to make marines cheaper, but then I think we move too far away from the fluff.

 

Again as people have said, horde armies getting easy CP is the other major issue compared to marines. One look at the BA forum will tell you that we are list-hammering like maniacs trying to find the balance between cool assaulty units & troops to fill our battallion/ brigades so we can pull off our crazy Rip'n'Tear shenanigans without sacrificing any power. Currently, MSU Scouts are (depending on how you look at it) the only real option we have.

All is dust isnt that great. Just wait until your opponent shows up with nothing but D2 weapons...thats game.

[Captain Idaho]

I agree totally that the bigger picture needs to be considered instead of just lining up troops against each other.

 

Comparing stats, as wicked as Maths is (sorcery if you ask me), Is a good start but consider other factors. Being outnumbered and less efficient point for point is not going to hurt you if most of your opponent's army can see round that building to stop you killing his units.

[Bulwyf]

I can only speak for myself but I find it depressing that MEQ for both loyal and traitor are rather pathetic in 8th. The literal Chaos Space Marine codex should be renamed Chaos Cultist and Other Options because of how superior cultists are to CSM. The same would be true if Loyal SM got something like cultists.

 

It clashes so much with the fluff/lore and history of the setting that Astartes are so mediocre against lowly mortals.

[Ishagu]

GW needs to address the balance between a quality wound (t4 4+ save for example) and a cheap quantative wound (t3 5+ for example)

 

A Marine is not worth 3 guardsmen as it currently stands. This is the biggest issue. This can be applied to comparative units.

[Zodd1888]

Two quick points:

 

1. The Mathhammer doesn't fall apart.

Math is math, facts are facts. While the data analysis by 3++ may be in contention the stats provided are not. You can say you need to consider the argument across the complete gamescape before you can apply valuation to costs, which is fair.

 

The concern is that these units fulfill similar army roles depending on faction. This is causing a bottleneck for selection and skews around some of the factors referenced in the article, and through this thread. In many cases, hordes dramatically perform not only the roles of tactical squads, but also provide greater utility.

 

2. CP allotment is a fair concern. It, IMO, isn't nearly an issue if you take brigade out and limit to three detatchments.

[Beams]

Honestly, my powered armor sisters work great.

 

Obvs grey knights have some issues against mega hordes, but that's to be expected when you only have 30 models. Regular space Marines seem fine, they just have to be smarter about using cover and Los blocking terrain. A 30 man guardsman blob can't hide, but a 5 man space Marine squad can.

[Captain Idaho]

Part of the problems are also terrain. Many gaming groups and thus local tournaments buy terrain from GW but much of their stuff, whilst looking great, blocks practically nothing and provides no cover in the game.

 

I have at least 5 LoS blocking pieces on my tables and it creates an actual game of movement, cat and mouse and clever placement.

[RandomMarine]

Part of the problems are also terrain. Many gaming groups and thus local tournaments buy terrain from GW but much of their stuff, whilst looking great, blocks practically nothing and provides no cover in the game.

 

I have at least 5 LoS blocking pieces on my tables and it creates an actual game of movement, cat and mouse and clever placement.

This so much. On a 6x4 I have 4x 6"x4" two story buildings and 1 12"x4" 3 story building plus about 8-10 bits of scatter terrain..

 

I run primaris with assault versions of all weapons . So with clever movement scout and shoot wins me alot of games

[Azekai]

 

You haven’t even spent Command Points yet. Horde armies like Gaurd and Nids, need lots of CP so their units are useful. An attack twice strategem is far more useful on a unit like Noise Marines than a unit like Nids. That is why I suspect armies like Nids/Gaurd recieve more CP than Marines. Moral immunity is needed for hordes to be remotely playable. Without it Gaunts/Boyz Units just fall apart and we’ll be back in 7th Edition for those armies.

 

I totally disagree. Hordes shouldn't be there to accomplish much offensively- they already serve lots of valuable roles: clog objectives, get herded toward things you want to distract, and die in droves. If your hordes are also dishing out lots of punishment, that is a problem, because they don't actually cost very much to field. Guardsmen/cultists/gaunts should not be effective, generally speaking. They are worth taking because of their numbers and their ability to hold objectives, not be significant threats. I run poxwalker hordes, and I put lots of buffs on my zombies and they still barely ever kill anything, and that is fine. It isn't their role to kill everything in sight- I have other units that rack up the kills. The horde is there to seize objectives and screen and eat up bullets.

 

That is why guardsmen are a bit of a problem- they *do* pose a threat. They *are* dangerous. They are the lowest common denominator troop, and that makes them powerful. You aren't paying for unecessary toughness or a good save- who needs that when you can just pack in more bodies?

 

Morale is the counterbalance to the extreme efficiency of taking quantity instead of quality. If you are able to take half a table's worth of cheap bodies and your opponent is forced to shoot each and every one of your stupid little grunts, things go downhill quick. Morale (at least in 8th) is what theoretically stops the game from degenerating into Hordehammer.

 

Thematically, I dislike the idea of guardsmen being unstoppable and unshakable morale-immune paragons; given all the horrors that populate the 41st Millennium, that just seems silly.

[Beams]

Guardsman should be dangerous though. Not letting Guardsmen shoot at all destroys their entire army.

 

The thing is, individual guardsman ARE terrible. Even at 4 shots, they are hitting on average twice, and then wounding on either 5's or 6's, so barely wounding anything, and saves block them, and are completely worthless in melee, and die to a stiff breeze.

 

a marine on the other hand is hitting 66% of the time so 1.32 hits, wounding on 3/4/5 depending on the target and while easy to block, the Marine is wounded less, and saves considerably more, especially when in cover (2+ save on troops is nuts) and can kill GEQs in close combat.

 

God knows if you give a marine sergant a power axe vs a Guardsmen with a power axe.

[Shockmaster]

Part of the problems are also terrain. Many gaming groups and thus local tournaments buy terrain from GW but much of their stuff, whilst looking great, blocks practically nothing and provides no cover in the game.

 

I have at least 5 LoS blocking pieces on my tables and it creates an actual game of movement, cat and mouse and clever placement.

 

Agreed, my clubs games look like city fight battles compared to the games I see when I occasionally pop in to my local store.

[chamberlainskeksil]

Part of the problems are also terrain. Many gaming groups and thus local tournaments buy terrain from GW but much of their stuff, whilst looking great, blocks practically nothing and provides no cover in the game.

 

I have at least 5 LoS blocking pieces on my tables and it creates an actual game of movement, cat and mouse and clever placement.

This.  And it's also a great idea to have loads of cover granting terrain so when you do face a open lane of fire.

 

I know this thread is about typical tournament style 2000+ matched play, but I've also found that power armour is great doing smaller games where people talk with their opponents about what they are fielding beforehand.  I just played a 750 point game where we agreed on one vehicle each.  My opponent had a bunch of Primaris and a multimelta ccw dread.  I had skitarii and a onager.  It took quite a few turns for my Onager to get a bead on that dread, but most of the time I was happily shooting at the marines as my galvanic rifles and radium carbines were definitely struggling with marine armour.

 

Tournaments with very little terrain?  Yeah, that'll just come down to statistics as enough dice are rolled that it's reliable.

[Beams]

Also, Guardsmen now die in droves to morale and Commisars only make it worse for 45+ points.

[chamberlainskeksil]

I think the key for terrain is that you don't want to nullify any army's strength.  You just want to avoid the case where in turn 1 every unit on one side can shoot any unit they want on the other.  Shooting should still be effective but there should be lanes of fire that you have to pick and shoot down.

[Schlitzaf]

Actually Commissars reduces the casualty count by 2-3 Conscripts/LD6 Units. Sense they give their leadership and it’s likely higher than the Units then difference of leadership -1 = how much commissar reduced casualty (if failure is certain)

[Gentlemanloser]

Morale is the counterbalance to the extreme efficiency of taking quantity instead of quality.

It should be. Which is why synapse and pre nerf commisars are/were a major problem.

 

I dread to see how the green tide ignores moral when Orks get thier Codex.

[Beams]

Actually Commissars reduces the casualty count by 2-3 Conscripts/LD6 Units. Sense they give their leadership and it’s likely higher than the Units then difference of leadership -1 = how much commissar reduced casualty (if failure is certain)

Right, but they have to shoot one if they fail, and the reroll has a chance to increase the casualties taken, so if you lose 8 Conscripts (easy to do) and roll a one, you'd bornally only lose one conscripts. Instead you now kill a conscript and reroll, getting a 4/5/6, and kill that many more. Obviously this isn't always the case, but I'd rather just take something else (Inquisitor?) Or just leave them be, instead of playing 31/55 points without Updgrades.

[Schlitzaf]

You realize if auto fail in that circumstance it’s statistically no different then using the Commissars Leadership at -1? Dice doesn’t have memory. The reverse is also true rolling high rerolling low.

 

Like just means once you kill 8 people the leadership bubble Commissars give are 7 (and thus useless for infantry squads but still good for Special/Heavy/Conscripts)

[toaae]

 

Morale is the counterbalance to the extreme efficiency of taking quantity instead of quality.

It should be. Which is why synapse and pre nerf commisars are/were a major problem.

 

I dread to see how the green tide ignores moral when Orks get thier Codex.

Orks replace their leadership with the number of models in the unit, or with the leadership of a unit within 6". Meaning it takes an extraordinary number of casualties for Orks to take morale, if a 30 boy mob is nearby. Also, to further mitigate the loses, warbosses have an aura that causes d3 mortal wounds to units that failed morale, who are then considered to have passed it, and Nob units have an aura causing units that have models that flee stick around on a 6.