Too many tanks and guns

[rye0006]

I had a hideous loss to Imperial guard yesterday - 4 Leman Russ tanks, 1 hydra tank, 1 manticore tank, 2 chimeras. The russes were all boosted by yarick and shooting twice.

My stormraven was blown up instantly, my LRC, thunder hammer terminators, and Ironclad weren't far behind. I was tracked in turn 2!

 

What tactics/units are people finding effective at dealing with large numbers of tanks and big guns?

[Medjugorje]

No melee unit. You need strong shooty units.

[allegedlynerdy]

As a guard player, what you need is some form of alpha strike/diversionary units. Deepstrike troops with thunder hammers, terminators with chainfist, drop pod troops with anti-tank weaponry. I personally think that vanguard vets with thunderhawk, assault Marines, and a jump chaplain work well. The assault Marines are the bullet sponge during overwatch, the vanguards are the heavy hitters, and the chaplain does as chaplains do.

 

Alternatively: only crusader squads, Boltpistol Chainsword, Meltaguns. Half into drop pods, half into rhinos. Sort of an alpha strike rhino rush, so to speak.

Edited January 2, 2018 by allegedlynerdy

[Marshal Wolfhart]

Alternatively you want to stay out of line of sight. 8th makes proper LOS blocking terrain a necessity, otherwise shooty armies will have a field day.

[Firepower]

As a guard player, what you need is some form of alpha strike/diversionary units. Deepstrike troops with thunder hammers, terminators with chainfist, drop pod troops with anti-tank weaponry. I personally think that vanguard vets with thunderhawk, assault Marines, and a jump chaplain work well. The assault Marines are the bullet sponge during overwatch, the vanguards are the heavy hitters, and the chaplain does as chaplains do.

 

Alternatively: only crusader squads, Boltpistol Chainsword, Meltaguns. Half into drop pods, half into rhinos. Sort of an alpha strike rhino rush, so to speak.

 

In my experience a solid IG tank line can still dish out enough firepower to blow an alpha strike away, if they don't have solid saves.  An Ironclad stands a modicum of a chance, if it can make the charge from its pod (very risky).  Otherwise I would recommend Terminators or Vanguard with shields.  You'll need that extra durability.  

[allegedlynerdy]

In my experience a solid IG tank line can still dish out enough firepower to blow an alpha strike away, if they don't have solid saves. An Ironclad stands a modicum of a chance, if it can make the charge from its pod (very risky). Otherwise I would recommend Terminators or Vanguard with shields. You'll need that extra durability.

In this specific case, with Commissar Yarrick, they're all going to be close enough together that you could charge one but still get into combat with all of them. Imo the purpose of assault Marines in a BT force is to be bullet sponges. The good thing about this (vs. thunderhammer terminators) is that they are still very mobile, and one of the big benefits most armies which deal with alpha strike well have is that they have a lot of distractionary units. While some terminators in addition to the "jumppack bomb" as I call it are good, they'd usually be better served against taking out masses of infantry, where the better save an extra wounds will matter when they're in combat.

 

As a guard player, the reason that mass infantry is powerful is that it's mostly immune to alpha strike. Tanks are not.

 

A twin lascannon dread in your lines is also a good idea, in general.

[Firepower]

How do you charge one unit and end up in combat with many?  Assault rules these days have a lot of nuances that seem to slip by me, apparently (Heroic Intervention is a total mystery  ).

[rye0006]

In my experience a solid IG tank line can still dish out enough firepower to blow an alpha strike away, if they don't have solid saves. An Ironclad stands a modicum of a chance, if it can make the charge from its pod (very risky). Otherwise I would recommend Terminators or Vanguard with shields. You'll need that extra durability.

But dreadnoughts can't take a drop pod any more, so I carry it in a stormraven. Unfortunately the tanks pounded the raven it of the sky (killing 2 terminators in the resulting explosion), leaving the ironclad in open space with more guns pointed directly at it, so it went down in the same turn.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

How do you charge one unit and end up in combat with many?  Assault rules these days have a lot of nuances that seem to slip by me, apparently (Heroic Intervention is a total mystery  ).

 

The easiest way to get into combat with units you didn't charge is to pile in into 1" of them. The pile in rule states that you move 3", ending the movement closer to the nearest enemy model. No need to move in a direct line towards it, just end the move closer. (note: one can't assign attacks to units one didn't cahrge in that turn, so the enemy gets free swings without retaliation. if you just want to tie them up, that's worth it still.)

Heroic intervention is merely a character engaging in a melee with a closeby friendly unit being attacked. Would be horrible if a crusader squad fights to the death with some heretics while the marshal is standing by idley, unable to attack because the enemy didn't charge him, too, right?

Edited January 3, 2018 by Marshal Wolfhart

[Aegir_Einarsson]

But HI triggers If any enemy model is in 3/6" range Right?

And we count distance from marshall to enemy model, not ours that is in combat

[allegedlynerdy]

 

 

The easiest way to get into combat with units you didn't charge is to pile in into 1" of them. The pile in rule states that you move 3", ending the movement closer to the nearest enemy model. No need to move in a direct line towards it, just end the move closer. (note: one can't assign attacks to units one didn't cahrge in that turn, so the enemy gets free swings without retaliation. if you just want to tie them up, that's worth it still.)

 

Also, if your charge ends within 1" of another unit, they're drawn into combat as well, and therefore can not overwatch. since most units you'd alpha strike against would be using aura effects, they'd be clustered together pretty close, usually.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

If the issue is with the Stormraven carrying Terminators, then remove the Terminators from the Stormraven and have them Deep Strike, you can Deep Strike now almost wherever you like, with just the issue of missing the charge, but that's where the Templar Chapter Tactic comes in. Also, while Drop Pods can no longer carry Dreadnoughts, the larger Dreadnought Drop Pods from Forge World can, if you can get your hands on it, Deep Strike Dreadnoughts directly on those tanks and watch them sweat while you roll charge distance. Bikes are also another thing to wrap up tanks, but they come in smaller number and are a lot more expensive... on the plus side, you can equip them with Meltaguns so you can reduce a few wounds before charging.

 

Needless to say, wrap up the tanks in Assault so that they have fewer chances to shoot, this goes for any mechanized army list... if you tie up a Land Raider Crusader in Assault, that's 24 Bolters and 12 Assault Cannons out of commission for a turn... if they have Leman Russes, have 1-2 Thunder Hammers or Meltabombs, or if you manage to land a Crusader Squad, maybe a TH on the Sword Brethren and a Power Fist on an Initiate and a Meltagun for a lucky shot and prioritize their big guns... chances are, even if they are a bit spread out, you'd tie up their big gun for a turn for less shooting.

[SydonianDragoon404]

Lots of different factions are having trouble fighting Guard right now. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I had the same problem last week with Eldar as well, a mechanised force of gravity tanks backed by a Scorpion. I just didn't have enough volume of anti-tank firepower to take them down. In the meantime, the weight of fire from the Scorpion was crippling, it took out a Land Raider in turn one!

[arigatous]

Air Wing of 3 Xiphon Interceptors could help greatly if you go first.

 

On average 9LCs will kill 1 Leman Russ.

 

Another 3 LCs and 9 Battery Shots will kill Hydra.

 

All of these weapons have 48+ range and Interceptors by themselves are -1 to hit them, so if you will position them right, most of opponent's weapons will be able to hit them on 6+ only (including the penalty for moving).

[Acebaur]

@allegedlynerdy How many assault marines would you run to act as bullet sponges?

[Firepower]

Cheap assault squad sacrificial harassment units, a Raven, maybe Las Preds or Storm Talons for survivability...but damn Talons are overpriced as all hell now.

[Schlitzaf]

If your willing to soup; Gaurdsman provide cheap and efficient backfield. for sake of example 4 Lascannons Devies mathematically are nearly a damage worse on average (become damage better if you pop cherub but cost a Lascannons more, 170 vs 156).

 

Gaurdsman biggest flaw (if you soup) is that Unit comparison, is those Gaurd Cannons are twice as many drops as SM equivalent. And table space. They also give cheap ‘chaff’ distraction Fexes like Scions and Ponies to deep strike and outflank your enemy.

 

If you insist on purity, then you’ve got a couple solutions. One those Russes kill 8 Marines a turn more like 10ish depending on Neophyte/Initiate ratio) or 16 Damage. Vs an LRC 7 Damage. Manticore adds another two wounds/4 Damage. Hydra another 0.5 wounds/1 Damage (before Yarrick Rerolls).

 

You have three options here while his firepower is quality it lacks quantity (terribly ironic I know). That level of firepower only kills 12 Marines a turn. But utterly devastates armored assault and high elite (once again ironic I know).

 

What you need is to provide him multiple threats and multiple targets. Once your force him into Bumper Cars, you win. 3-4 Rhino rushing Crusaders even if he kills 2 rhinos your other Rhinos can rush pop smoke. While your footing Crusaders walk and advance.

 

The other way is mass drop pod, 3-4 Crusaders and Characters require him to immidaitely kill everything and block his LOS. If one or two squads live, you can force the bumper car scenario which means you win.

 

Third which is my preference, 3-4 Tide Crusaders Or 2 Tide Crusaders and two Intercessors. With backfield and deep strike support. Strike Deploy Cheap Reivars, Assault Marines and/or two Terminator Squad. Giving you likely 1-2 turns to move and advance your foot walkers into position.

 

Then setup backfield using multiple of units Devestators, Predators etc. These backfield anti-tank should not be expected to survive T1. Their job is to take fire from your Crusader Squads. Either footwalking or Rhino Rushing. (Podding Crusaders well you won’t have any other units on board).

 

Your win condition here is not killing his tanks, it’s forcing the tanks to bumper cars. He cannot reasonably hurt you once Combat is joined. Yarrick scary, but he is only as tough as a Scout Marine. What will you Lose is the classic Deathstar in one Basket supported by 3 Man MSU Crusaders. Turn one he destroys or cripples the MSU and their transports. Turn two he cripples the Star transport. Turn 3 you murders two tanks then take his his army return fire.

 

So long story short, Rhino/Pods/Tide Bodies and Numbers. Goal not to Kill but to force Bumper Cars.

[allegedlynerdy]

@allegedlynerdy How many assault marines would you run to act as bullet sponges?

One 5 man asault marine squad for every vanguard squad (no matter the size of the vanguard squad). I'd still recommend giving them some weapons, but if you're short on points running them buck standard works too.

 

If you're running into trouble with too many deepstrike units, you could probably run them ten man.

Edited January 4, 2018 by allegedlynerdy

[Acebaur]

Cool, I usually run them 5 strong and have either plasma pistols or flamers. Makes for a nice cheap unit that is mobile and dangerous if left alone.

[JAG Templar]

 

 

 

The easiest way to get into combat with units you didn't charge is to pile in into 1" of them. The pile in rule states that you move 3", ending the movement closer to the nearest enemy model. No need to move in a direct line towards it, just end the move closer. (note: one can't assign attacks to units one didn't cahrge in that turn, so the enemy gets free swings without retaliation. if you just want to tie them up, that's worth it still.)

 

Also, if your charge ends within 1" of another unit, they're drawn into combat as well, and therefore can not overwatch. since most units you'd alpha strike against would be using aura effects, they'd be clustered together pretty close, usually.

I know this topic is not about core game rules but I’m just interested in the above comment. I was always under the impression that we couldn’t end a charge within 1” of an enemy unit that hadn’t been declared as being charged. It wasn’t until Pile In and later Consolidate that that we, as you rightly say, could draw them in combat by closing to within 1”.

 

On topic: Celestine is my friend for disrupting castled Guard. Especially if there are a lot of troops bubble wrapped around lots of tanks. Her 24” move with Acts of Faith means players often underestimate her threat range (they only do that once), and she can happily fly over all the meat shields to get at the Leman Russ’s etc. I can often tie up 4-5 tanks depending on how overwatch has gone and how the tanks are spaced.

 

As has been stated before Guard is almost in a league of its own in this current edition. I have a tailored list for Guard opponents because I just got sick of getting tabled. At 2000 points it has 11 lascannons, Celestine and three assassins. Not very Templar-like but does the job.

Edited January 5, 2018 by JAG Templar

[allegedlynerdy]

The rule is as long as you are as close as possible to the intended charging target, you can have other units within 1" (as long as your models are no more than 3" away from the target iirc)

 

I'd say Guard is in a league of it's own now, but only because it's tactics have barely changed since 5th edition. The only way to make guard remotely competitive (especially in 6th and 7th) is now the most competitive guard can be. Every other army has been supershaken up by this edition, and probably as the meta starts settling in it will be better.

 

Not to get too much into 8th meta, but Guard is nothing compared to Tyranids. Back when 8th dropped, first tournament I went to, I took my 200 conscript list, with many heavy weapons and tanks (and an imperial knight) and was tabled turn 2 against 'nids. They were even a match against imperial guard when guard had a codex and nids didn't. Terrifying army, but not enough people play it for many to recognize that yet.

[Kallas]

The rule is as long as you are as close as possible to the intended charging target, you can have other units within 1" (as long as your models are no more than 3" away from the target iirc)

Incorrect:

Page 8 of the PDF:

"No models in the charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that was not a target of its charge."

 

Basically, you can only pull them in if you target them, or through Pile In (though the charging unit cannot target them with attacks, if they didn't target them with the charge) or Consolidate moves.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Kallas

[allegedlynerdy]

Strange, thought that changed with one of the FAQs. Well, guess everyone at the local GW has been playing wrong, even the store owner! Thanks for the info.