The Sableclaw Talon Master 1 - 2

[ValourousHeart]

Snake, I get your point, but personally, I feel that power levels are more accurate at predicting a unit's potential than points are at establishing a hierarchy of effectiveness.

 

Consider what Helycon said.

 

An attack bike with a heavy bolter is 45 points. It also has the twin bolters as well. You could go for a multi melta bike too, for 62 points if you please.

 

The MM is only better than the HB vs certain targets, and vs quite a few targets, the MM is demonstrably worse than the HB.

[Helycon]

Powerlevel is silly though. It takes into account upgrade possibility. A squad of tacticals is the same powerlevel as a same sized Intercessor squad, which has twice the amount of wounds and attacks. Sure, tacticals can take a special- or heavy weapon and the sargeant can be kitted out in a multitude of ways, but Intercessors have twice the staying power, which is dumb. Also, Ezekiel is cheaper than a barebones Libby, with access to better weapons in every way, more powers etc.

 

Powerlevel is nice to throw in some quick games and grab some models on hand without searching. Balance is done using points. Points indicate potential a lot better and makes you way the pros and cons when you spend extra points. You cannot kill a T5+ model as quickly with a HB as you can a MM. The model or models you'd kill with it, generally also cost more, making it worth the extra investment.

[breng77]

Snake, I get your point, but personally, I feel that power levels are more accurate at predicting a unit's potential than points are at establishing a hierarchy of effectiveness.

 

Consider what Helycon said.

 

 

An attack bike with a heavy bolter is 45 points. It also has the twin bolters as well. You could go for a multi melta bike too, for 62 points if you please.

The MM is only better than the HB vs certain targets, and vs quite a few targets, the MM is demonstrably worse than the HB.

The issue is that it works ok in your example, where neither option is great on an attack bike (not sure you bother to take one in a PL game) but consider things like the dark shroud, the assault cannon is objectively better in almost every scenario than the heavy bolter, or the razorback where the twin assault cannon is always better than the twin heavy bolter. In those cases there is no reason to take the weaker equipment. Your scouts will always have a heavy weapon and camo cloaks etc.

 

PL works great when people play wysiwyg and have built armies for points. It allows for quick pickup games. When people min max for PL it starts to show its flaws.

Edited January 16, 2018 by breng77

[ValourousHeart]

Powerlevel is silly though. It takes into account upgrade possibility. A squad of tacticals is the same powerlevel as a same sized Intercessor squad, which has twice the amount of wounds and attacks. Sure, tacticals can take a special- or heavy weapon and the sargeant can be kitted out in a multitude of ways, but Intercessors have twice the staying power, which is dumb. Also, Ezekiel is cheaper than a barebones Libby, with access to better weapons in every way, more powers etc.

 

Powerlevel is nice to throw in some quick games and grab some models on hand without searching. Balance is done using points. Points indicate potential a lot better and makes you way the pros and cons when you spend extra points. You cannot kill a T5+ model as quickly with a HB as you can a MM. The model or models you'd kill with it, generally also cost more, making it worth the extra investment.

Tactical squads have more tactical flexibility and Intercessor squads have more resilience.  Players value those aspects differently.  But game-wise both units will have relatively the same impact on the table.  Claiming that difference is dumb, only shows that you have a bias toward one of those qualities.

 

It is the same when comparing Ezekiel to a bare-bones librarian.  Sure if you take no upgrades on the Librarian, he is worse than Ezekiel.  But who doesn't take any upgrades on their characters?  Only players who only take named characters.

 

The bare-bones also has the ability to pick a warlord trait and a relic.  Both of which are not reflected in any points costs or power levels.  So it is hardly the case that Ezekiel is the better choice in all situations.

 

Now, this isn't to say that there aren't issues with PL... the clearest example is the PA and TDA Librarians being 8 PL and the JP Librarian being 9 PL.  There is definitely a question to be asked there because I don't know anyone who would argue that TDA is worse than a JP.  But IMO the points system doesn't address that very well and brings up more questions about other interactions.

 

 

 

Snake, I get your point, but personally, I feel that power levels are more accurate at predicting a unit's potential than points are at establishing a hierarchy of effectiveness.

 

Consider what Helycon said.

An attack bike with a heavy bolter is 45 points. It also has the twin bolters as well. You could go for a multi melta bike too, for 62 points if you please.

The MM is only better than the HB vs certain targets, and vs quite a few targets, the MM is demonstrably worse than the HB.

The issue is that it works ok in your example, where neither option is great on an attack bike (not sure you bother to take one in a PL game) but consider things like the dark shroud, the assault cannon is objectively better in almost every scenario than the heavy bolter, or the razorback where the twin assault cannon is always better than the twin heavy bolter. In those cases there is no reason to take the weaker equipment. Your scouts will always have a heavy weapon and camo cloaks etc.

 

PL works great when people play wysiwyg and have built armies for points. It allows for quick pickup games. When people min max for PL it starts to show its flaws.

What are you talking about? The MM Attack Bike has been considered the most points efficient anti-tank unit in the game since 4th edition.  And the HB has been considered a good choice anti-infantry weapon for longer than that.  Sure, if you have access to something better, why wouldn't you take it.  But that doesn't make either the MM or the HB a terrible choice.

 

I agree that the AC is better than the HB, but the attack bike doesn't have access to that.  Oh boy, do I wish the attack bike could have all the weapon choices that the land speeder does, I've already got 7 attack bikes, but I would buy more of that kit.

 

As for the AC on the Dark Shroud, you seem to be forgetting one thing.  The majority of players would be advancing the Dark Shroud ever turn to give it the 4++ so as to keep the -1 to hit on all of their other units.  As such most players would opt to not spend points on an upgrade they won't get to use.  Even with the stratagem, they may be hesitant to take an upgrade that would force them to spend a CP in order to fire the weapon.  I took it because I still had 100 points left over.  But if I didn't have the points, I wouldn't take it.

 

That is a fair point about the Twin HB and Twin AC on the Razorback.  I hadn't considered that one because honestly, I haven't seen a Twin HB Razorback in years.  People either take the Lascannons or the AC, which is the point you are making.  However they were taking the AC or Lascannons last edition as well, so that isn't a new development this edition.

 

I agree that min-maxing is an issue in 40k, and there is a segment of the player base that will abuse any rule system.  But the solution to prevent that behavior won't be palatable to the tournament crowd.  Afterall, there is a reason all of these people are playing 40k and not Chess.

[Helycon]

Ezekiel is better in every single way. The only thing you can take on a librarian that remotely changes him is giving him a different pistol than a bolter. Powell level for both is not making sense. Claiming otherwise highly overvalues pistols of any kind. you're also neglecting the fact Ezekiel has an invulnerable save and an aura ability, albeit not an amazing one, but an aura nonetheless. By your logic, Asmodai should be cheaper than an IC as well, which he is not.

 

And when you compare and I don't like Intercessors really, I just feel that the difference in 5 man squads is a lot bigger than a weapon option on a marine and some options on a sarge. Double the amount of wounds is a big deal. And it's not like Intercessors don't have any options at all. They should be at least PL 6 due to the difference in statline.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Helycon

[Interrogator Stobz]

+++ Guys, you have drifted miles off topic. Get back to the point please. Further OT posts will be removed without prejudice.+++

[Madmonkeyman]

So how many tallon masters to people like To run? Personally I run to with sableclaw as well. Unlike normal characters which just buff stuff they do so much shooting them selves and can't be targeted.

[breng77]

I have gone 1 with sableclaw, with the beta character rules I think more than that seems to be too much.  I've already dropped to just Sammi at 1500 points as having both of them felt like they were restricting me elsewhere.  That said I could see if you were doing a single battalion at 1500 running both as both required HQ choices.

[SnakeChisler]

I'm running both the synergy is pretty startling, aside from the obvious shooting they can both buff each other in combat plus bug out in your turn and shoot rather than get locked. There both WS 2+ with heavenfall blade that's 10 attacks total, they really do a serious number in combat.

 

Notable kills so far have been aircraft fly too close to the pair of them and 16" move + charge and T6 stuff is pretty dead & you should skim 8 wounds off a storm raven

 

Save some command points for "only in death" to shoot/fight again its mental an only in death 18 shot -1 ap killing machine