Forgeworld Grey Slayers Upgrade Pack

[Marshal Rohr]

It would be better to leave the layered pads as a wolf aesthetic, since the above example of layering armor hasn’t been implemented in any other line. Mixing legion aesthetic can really hurt a conversion.

[Charlo]

It would be better to leave the layered pads as a wolf aesthetic, since the above example of layering armor hasn’t been implemented in any other line. Mixing legion aesthetic can really hurt a conversion.

 

I've seen people use all kinds of upgrades among different legions and they look spectacular!

 

The layering armour is clearly something that legions would have done (I mean, that's pretty much what MkII/ III is!)

[Marshal Rohr]

Right, but in the same way the Alpha legion uses scales that don’t work for other legions, this is an immediate visual wolf piece. If Forge World releases a generic legion kit with the layered playing on the shoulders then yes, I’d agree with you

[Dantay VI]

The knotwork and runic inscriptions on the armour is the Space Wolves motif... the layers pads have been used on other models (Narik De-reygur, Tech Priests off the top of my head), so I'd say go for it.

 

The kit is not bad for what it is.. I only saw 1 unique torso, I would hope to see more, of those or the unit will look pretty dull. beyond that the kit is pretty good. Combine it with Despoiler legs and you got some pretty dynamic looking Grey Slayers. 

[Dantay VI]

As Maverik has suggested it might be worth opening up a topic on here for folks to post their Praetors and Varagyr, maybe give FW some idea of how tey really should look. I  have popped it in the Hall of Honour, so feel free to post there and lets see if we can redeem the mighty 6th :)

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343145-post-your-space-wolves-praetors-jarls/?p=4977639

[Baluc]

With a health mix of the Imperial Fist helmets I think there is enough to build an army hear. I would still recommend making your own Varagyr, but they are crap in the game so its almost unimportant how bad the models are. Almost worse than pre-update Justaerin, but more offensive since they can't even use the majority of their LA:SW rules, and frequently not even a Dreadclaw.

[Dantay VI]

I use Iron warrior and Imperial Fist helmets all the time.... Gonna experiment with White Scars and Alpha LEgion next. I know of a few who have used World Eater helmets

[okonomiyakimarine]

Right, but in the same way the Alpha legion uses scales that don’t work for other legions, this is an immediate visual wolf piece. If Forge World releases a generic legion kit with the layered playing on the shoulders then yes, I’d agree with you

i am sorry, but to me this argument appears to be absurd. I understand why scales could be understood as exclusive visual clue for the alpha legion, but how does layered plates on shoulder pads signify 'space wolves'?

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Right, but in the same way the Alpha legion uses scales that don’t work for other legions, this is an immediate visual wolf piece. If Forge World releases a generic legion kit with the layered playing on the shoulders then yes, I’d agree with you

i am sorry, but to me this argument appears to be absurd. I understand why scales could be understood as exclusive visual clue for the alpha legion, but how does layered plates on shoulder pads signify 'space wolves'?

Because when the pad is viewed in its entirety, the pyramidal spikes only appear in one place in the art. Space wolves. Round spikes appear in many Legions, but the square ones only appear in one place. If you shaved those off and replace them with micro bead rivets, they’d be fine. But that level of conversion is rare to see. Normally people just kit bash.

 

It’s an aesthetic preference.  This a forum for discussion. If you don’t like my opinion move along. I’m not right or wrong, I’m just throwing out some thoughts.

 

 

Edit: Also, those might be ridges and not layered plates. If they are ridges and not layered plates THE ONLY legion with that aesthetic is Wolves.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Kurgan the Lurker
Edit - Rohr -- you are nearing another warning. I suggest you cool your jets. - Kurgan

[Sandlemad]

 

Right, but in the same way the Alpha legion uses scales that don’t work for other legions, this is an immediate visual wolf piece. If Forge World releases a generic legion kit with the layered playing on the shoulders then yes, I’d agree with you

i am sorry, but to me this argument appears to be absurd. I understand why scales could be understood as exclusive visual clue for the alpha legion, but how does layered plates on shoulder pads signify 'space wolves'?

 

Nothing about it inherently signifies space wolves but Leman Russ is shown with pauldrons/greaves bearing layered plates and distinct pyramidal studs in pretty much all his modern depictions. It sort of trickled down from there to be loosely associated with the wolves as a minor visual cue, even though it does work for IH, IW, WE (that lorcia segmentata look) and other legions. There's modellers on B&C and elsewhere using 3rd party versions for their VI legion troops. I got some myself from shapeways, it's good to have something distinctive besides pelts or runes.

 

It's a small, non-exclusive detail though. Maybe like raised collars for IF? No particular reason for it to be solely a VI legion thing but it's attested to in the art and IF players like it.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

Right, but in the same way the Alpha legion uses scales that don’t work for other legions, this is an immediate visual wolf piece. If Forge World releases a generic legion kit with the layered playing on the shoulders then yes, I’d agree with you

i am sorry, but to me this argument appears to be absurd. I understand why scales could be understood as exclusive visual clue for the alpha legion, but how does layered plates on shoulder pads signify 'space wolves'?

Nothing about it inherently signifies space wolves but Leman Russ is shown with pauldrons/greaves bearing layered plates and distinct pyramidal studs in pretty much all his modern depictions. It sort of trickled down from there to be loosely associated with the wolves as a minor visual cue, even though it does work for IH, IW, WE (that lorcia segmentata look) and other legions. There's modellers on B&C and elsewhere using 3rd party versions for their VI legion troops. I got some myself from shapeways, it's good to have something distinctive besides pelts or runes.

 

It's a small, non-exclusive detail though. Maybe like raised collars for IF? No particular reason for it to be solely a VI legion thing but it's attested to in the art and IF players like it.

Exactly. It’s a great starting point for a conversion, but simply plugging it on is as lazy as the people who use blood angels bits on ultramarines without attempting to alter the base bit.

[okonomiyakimarine]

It might either be ridges or plates, i could not care less if it was badly sculpted chainmail... I like the look and i might use these pads in the future. But hush, don't tell anyone I might consider using them on other models than vikings from space. How this pretty non-special detail should be SW-exlusive I truly cannot grasp.

 

 

Right, but in the same way the Alpha legion uses scales that don’t work for other legions, this is an immediate visual wolf piece. If Forge World releases a generic legion kit with the layered playing on the shoulders then yes, I’d agree with you

i am sorry, but to me this argument appears to be absurd. I understand why scales could be understood as exclusive visual clue for the alpha legion, but how does layered plates on shoulder pads signify 'space wolves'?

 

Nothing about it inherently signifies space wolves but Leman Russ is shown with pauldrons/greaves bearing layered plates and distinct pyramidal studs in pretty much all his modern depictions. It sort of trickled down from there to be loosely associated with the wolves as a minor visual cue, even though it does work for IH, IW, WE (that lorcia segmentata look) and other legions. There's modellers on B&C and elsewhere using 3rd party versions for their VI legion troops. I got some myself from shapeways, it's good to have something distinctive besides pelts or runes.

 

It's a small, non-exclusive detail though. Maybe like raised collars for IF? No particular reason for it to be solely a VI legion thing but it's attested to in the art and IF players like it.

 

 

Sons of Horus use pyramidical studs, very spike ones though. 

 

Good thought on the raised collars. Sure we associate it with IF, but as much we could connect it to IH or even UM breacher squads. So, uh-oh, it is an armour feature that makes sense for some type of units? 

 

 

 

 

Right, but in the same way the Alpha legion uses scales that don’t work for other legions, this is an immediate visual wolf piece. If Forge World releases a generic legion kit with the layered playing on the shoulders then yes, I’d agree with you

i am sorry, but to me this argument appears to be absurd. I understand why scales could be understood as exclusive visual clue for the alpha legion, but how does layered plates on shoulder pads signify 'space wolves'?

Nothing about it inherently signifies space wolves but Leman Russ is shown with pauldrons/greaves bearing layered plates and distinct pyramidal studs in pretty much all his modern depictions. It sort of trickled down from there to be loosely associated with the wolves as a minor visual cue, even though it does work for IH, IW, WE (that lorcia segmentata look) and other legions. There's modellers on B&C and elsewhere using 3rd party versions for their VI legion troops. I got some myself from shapeways, it's good to have something distinctive besides pelts or runes.

It's a small, non-exclusive detail though. Maybe like raised collars for IF? No particular reason for it to be solely a VI legion thing but it's attested to in the art and IF players like it.

Exactly. It’s a great starting point for a conversion, but simply plugging it on is as lazy as the people who use blood angels bits on ultramarines without attempting to alter the base bit.

 

 

So now it is you who decided what makes and breaks a conversion? Come on, pyramidical stud plate armour on shoulder pads is a non-exclusive and un-specific feature. Are you mad at me for suggesting to use parts of this precious SW upgrade pack?

 

edit: standardized font size.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Kurgan the Lurker
EDIT - Attempting to save the thread but it is nearing the end of its life if these types of shennanigans have to be edited out again. -- Kurgan

[Marshal Rohr]

Another one for the ignore list

[Fenbain]

The knotwork and runic inscriptions on the armour is the Space Wolves motif... the layers pads have been used on other models (Narik De-reygur, Tech Priests off the top of my head), so I'd say go for it.

 

 

Both unique IH units, both the MKIII and MKIV Techmarines, to name a few more. I'd argue that those, combined with the general usage on MKI and MKII in the artwork, provide enough precedent for them to be used on almost any Legion.

 

As for the angular spikes, those can be seen on the Iron Warriors as well, both in the artwork and on their models (Siege Tyrants), and on certain aspects of the SoH kits. I'm fairly sure I remember them on other Legions in the artwork, but I can't remember off the top of my head.

 

I do agree that certain things do scream of a particular Legion, but in this case you are wrong Rohr.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Fenbain

[Tyrannicide]

I don’t think Rohr’s point is that you CAN’T use them on other legions, rather that it’s part of the VIth Legion’s visual identity. And he’s right. Go back to Collected Visions and see the prevalence of that layered pad design on the artwork of the Wolves. It’s not that that specific pad design doesn’t exist in other legions, just that it may weaken the overall aesthetic to use that in other legions. IMO, sticking closely to a legion’s aesthetic foundations is when armies look the best.

 

At the end of the day it’s your models so do whatever you want with them.

[Sandlemad]

 

Sons of Horus use pyramidical studs, very spike ones though. 

 

Good thought on the raised collars. Sure we associate it with IF, but as much we could connect it to IH or even UM breacher squads. So, uh-oh, it is an armour feature that makes sense for some type of units? 

 

 

They do but yes, they're spikier than the short studs Russ is shown with. Still works though, I've seen SW Black Cull models built largely from SoH Reavers.

 

Quite true on the raised collars.  You could absolutely use to other legions, it makes 100% sense other units/character. Apart from legion icons and maybe the palatine aquila, there's almost no one visual or armorial feature that is the sole preserve of only one legion. Even Garro offers an example of how a non-EC could bear an aquila.

If you can make it look good and fitting, you can make it look good and fitting. In a legion of thousands there's always room for variation. It's the same dang argument that comes up when people say "this legion is not shown wearing MkIV armour so it is wrong and bad for you to model your dudes wearing it". It's a dumb argument that lacks subtlety or an awareness of the precedent of freedom the FW books have set.

 

Buuuuut the IH are know to have a fondness for MkIII armour, so you're going to get more FW products built around that. Both FW IF special characters and their upgrade kit have been modelled with raised collars, showing that FW has decided to use it as part of the IF visual language in their products. Here the FW sculptors have decided to follow Russ's example and model these SW with banded pauldrons. It's not at all about things being forbidden.

 

EDIT: I wouldn't even go so far as to say that incorporating or rejecting particular elements of a legions's visual language 'weakens their aesthetic'. I could make an SW army without pelts or bare heads (substitute your own example here: an IH force in mkIV, an EC force in battle damaged mkIII) and with the right skills, I could still make it look like a 'proper' VI legion force through runes and knotwork and axes.

 

No legion has so narrow an aesthetic that adding or removing a few elements in your particular implementation would ruin them.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Sandlemad

[Marshal Rohr]

Ok, lets break this down with pictures:

You guys are seeing this, layered banding, and confusing it with this ...

Grooved Plate motif common on all the BL Wolf Artwork

The Leman Russ model is a more detailed version of the grey slayers upgrades, see here...

and here ...

What you guys are confusing is this...

For this ...

Clearly layered armor. Thats fine, like I said, to use the base shoulder as a starting point for a conversion, but these....

Are exclusively part of the space wolves models aesthetic and not the same as these....

Which are pointed and conical, and these...

which are rounded entirely.

I hope taking the time to find all these images clearly illustrates my point. The Grey Slayers upgrades can work just fine on other legions, if converted. Without conversion, those pyramidal studs really detract from the look, but obviously only a :cuss would give you crap about it. Thats why I brought it up here, so people can consider that it might be worth the effort to modify them instead of sticking them straight on before anyone has spent money on it. So to tell me I am 'wrong' as Feinbein has just done, is incorrect, and here is the evidence to support my position.

This will be my last post in this thread, about this topic.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Marshal Rohr

[Dagoth Ur]

While you have a very, very good point concerning the layered vs banded armour issue, this very phrase

Are exclusively part of the space wolves aesthetic and not the same as these....

Is factually wrong and a look into several of the FW blackbooks proves this.

 

Even several of the new Plague Marines have pyramidical studs that are referenced as a typical traitor/Sons of Horus thing, but let us leave that one aside as it isn't era appropriate. Iron Warriors and Sons of Horus show these studs in the FW art. This alone shows that it is not exclusive and certainly not as visually defining as say chevrons (Which one can still utilise in other schemes than just the iron warriors scheme because on its own it is just a generic visual detail) or scales (Which we haven't really seen amongst other legions than Salamanders and Alpha Legion unless we are talking scale-mail loincloths).

 

Also, here is a quote of out of HH Blackbook VI: Retribution from page 23, which is the same page from which the third image comes from.

 

"Of note are the jagged molecular bonding studs embedded in the right shoulder pauldron

- the application of such ad-hoc armour reinforcement became so prevalent on both sides

of the civil war that it was officially integrated into the specifications of Mark V and Mark VI

Legiones Astartes power armour and informally retrofitted to many individual suits." (Emphasis put by me)

 

This tells us that this sort of jagged bonding, which the specification of right shoulder pad visually tells us is the pyramidical studs, was not just restricted to one legion or even one side of the war, and while we haven't seen it on figures yet, it has been imported into further types of armour alongside more rounded studs.

 

Edit: Also, consider that the Iron Warriors Iron Tyrants have short and stubby pyramidical studs on some of the Launchers, Shoulders and even on a pair of Legs. So while the pyramid studs might have been exclusively SW at one point, this has become a very weak aesthetic case in recent times.

 

While it is true that effort of conversion is always a valuable aspect and something to take into consideration, you indeed, from a visual and artistic point of view, are wrong in stating that such pyramidical spikes/studs are exclusive to the Space Wolf aesthetic, and the above sources alone present a compelling case of this.

Edited January 8, 2018 by The Observer

[Marshal Rohr]

Exclusive to the space wolves models. I guess that could’ve been more clear. Many times the black book art work differs extensively from the actual models produced. Iron Hands do not have chainmail on their terminators, not a single official model has an anvilus pack, AND the pictures you’ve cited as reference still do not follow the same aesthetic Edited January 8, 2018 by Marshal Rohr

[Dagoth Ur]

Still, the Iron Tyrants already feature those studs, varying in both size, array and proportion. It is of no use shifting the goalposts when art and figures already have muddied the waters.

 

Edit: The second part of the post might've come off as a bit biting, but it was not intended in such a way. All I am trying to say is that such a hardline view in this specific case is just not feasible anymore from my point of view and from the evidence that I see.

Edited January 8, 2018 by The Observer

[Marshal Rohr]

The Iron tyrants do not have square spikes. I’m looking at the firgures right now. They are rounded at the tip. Do not accuse me of shifting the goal posts when I have clearly laid out extensive evidence to support my position. The space wolves figures have a specific aesthetic. Using them for another project without converting them detracts from that project. That’s the end of it. I’m not changing my position as I have clearly supported it over and over with pictures of the models themselves. You would not give an ultramarine sanguinary guard wings. You would not give a dark angel the Dynat model as a base figure. You should not use the Space Wolves upgrades on an Iron warrior and expect it to be immersive. Frankly, it’s clear people disagree with me more because they dislike me personally than anything else. I can’t post a comment on a thread without someone challenging my opinion for no other reason than they dislike me. Edited January 8, 2018 by Marshal Rohr

[Dagoth Ur]

Friend, I have held the figures in my hands and some of the studs are classically pyramidical

 

While you can certainly make the case that the studs on the third picture are slightly rounded on the top, the ones in picture one and two are clearly pyramidical.

[Fenbain]

I hope taking the time to find all these images clearly illustrates my point. The Grey Slayers upgrades can work just fine on other legions, if converted. Without conversion, those pyramidal studs really detract from the look, but obviously only a :cuss would give you crap about it. Thats why I brought it up here, so people can consider that it might be worth the effort to modify them instead of sticking them straight on before anyone has spent money on it. So to tell me I am 'wrong' as Feinbein has just done, is incorrect, and here is the evidence to support my position.

 

This will be my last post in this thread, about this topic.

Okay, fair enough on the difference between the Grey Slayer pad and the examples I gave (bar the MKIV Techmarine), but you were the first person to refer to them as layered pads within the thread. Which you've now pointed out they actually aren't, so I feel that's where a lot of the confusion lies.

 

As for the rest of your post, try looking at more than just one part of the kits. There are angular spikes (NOT rounded ones) on a couple of the Siege Tyrants legs, at least one torso, several of the shoulder pads and one of the Cyclone Missile Launchers. There are angular spikes on the helmets of the Reaver Squad as well as one of the torsos.

 

Edit: I see The Observer has provided several examples of why you are wrong about the spikes/studs being exclusive to the SW.

 

As for artwork, I've just gone through Collected Vision (I'm not gonna post pictures as there are so many examples) and found some interesting things. For one, there's almost as many pictures of SW with rounded studs as there is of them with angular studs, and most Legions use angular studs as well as rounded ones throughout the book. More importantly, I've found multiple (i.e. at least three, though for most of the Legions there was many more) pieces of artwork for the Sons of Horus, Word Bearers, Death Guard, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Ultramarines, Emperor's Children, Dark Angels, Salamanders and Space Wolves where they have these 'multi-plate/ridged/grooved pads' (any of those a better name for less confusion? Just trying to get a common expression for them :-) ). Couldn't find any or many for the Legions I haven't named, but that's still 10 Legions. So while it definitely is part of the Space Wolves aesthetic, it's not even close to something that is exclusive to them like you say, and is a shared aesthetic feature amongst many Legions. So yes, according to Collected Visions, you are wrong. Or at the very least, not correct.

 

But hey, that's just Collected Visions. Inferno may tell a different story, I'm having a look now :-)

 

Edit: Having read your posts, I'd like to clarify that I don't dislike you (I don't know you well enough for that and I think I often share your opinion of things if my memory of your comments is anything to go by). My reasoning for correcting you in this case is that it's not an opinion thing; there is loads of evidence that proves what you're saying isn't correct. And incorrectness must be corrected. It's got nothing to do with 'you'.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Fenbain

[Marshal Rohr]

Friend, I have held the figures in my hands and some of the studs are classically pyramidical

 

 

While you can certainly make the case that the studs on the third picture are slightly rounded on the top, the ones in picture one and two are clearly pyramidical.

This reinforces my point about aesthetic. Look at how the studs are arranged (I have no idea why they are rounded in one picture and square in another) and then look the the Leman Russ and grey hunter model. They do not match aesthetically. It’s a forced combination.

[Lord Blackwood]

Anyway , on the topic of the upgrade kits , I think they are the best offering weve got from forgeworld so far  ( Outside of our primarch which I really like ) 

At the same thing , I  think It falls a little short , Ill likely  make a squad from  these guys , as Ive put together 20 grey slayers of my own design already , but this would just add some more unique stuff to my army.  By and large id give this a solid B-  grade , but its better than the Terminators or the Praetor which I  gave  solid C- to. 


For reference here are some of my grey slayers 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Lord Blackwood