WPP comparison: DW Kill-Team

[spacewatch]

I was interested what does "DW point cost is not good enough for what they do" mean in practice. So I made some calculations and now I'm bit confused and don't know how should I interpret the results. Maybe you can help me.

 

Lets assume that in 'basic' DW Vet squad (sgt, bshield) each Vet has boltgun and power axe. Let's assume that Vet squad targets basic SM squad (T4Sv3) in two phases: first long range shooting so 5 Kraken shots and then short range shooting plus melee so 10 Vengeance shots and 12 power axe attacks. Theoretical damage for the first phase is 0,833 and second phase 5,778 so total damage is 6,611. WPP (wounds per point) for this scenario is 0,0551.

 

What about our 'bread and butter' DW Vet squad (sgt, bshield) where there's x2 FG, x3 power axe and boltguns? In first phase 4 Frag Shell shots plus 3 Kraken shots and in second phase average 14 Frag Frag shots plus 6 Vengeance shots plus melee so 8 power axe and 4 CCW attacks. Theoretical damage for the first phase is 1,389 and second phase is 8,815 so total damage is 10,240. WPP in this case is 0,0602.

 

It's easy to see how Frag Cannons make more kills than boltguns but I was a little surprised how WPP improves too. But how does these values compare to 'more point efficient SM units? Now, this is where I need help because I have experience from the Deathwatch army (I have just recently started recruiting my 2nd army but cannot decide between Raven Guard and Salamanders) but Scouts have the lowest point cost in SM codex so let's see what WPP they get for the same scenario. 

 

Basic scout squad has boltguns and bolt pistols and I'm going to let them use bolt pistol when in CC. In first phase unit shoots 5 boltgun shots and in second phase 10 boltgun shots plus 5 bolt pistol shots. Theoretical damage in first phase is 0,556 and in second phase 1,667 so total damage is 2,222. WPP becomes 0,0404.

 

This is the phase where I'm really surprised our Vets are three times more effective and WPP is better too. But I know Scouts are not the best killers there is in SM Codex so let's compare to our close friends, Sternguard. Sternquard has Special Issue Boltguns and bolt pistols but they have two attacks so I'm going to use CCW when in CC. This means that they shoot 5 SI-botgun shots in first phase and 10 SI-boltgun shots plus CCW attack in second phase. Theoretical damage in first phase is 1,111 and in second phase 3,444 so total damage is 4,555. WPP becomes  0,0506.

 

Our Vets are, in this theoretical case, three times better killers than (vanilla) SM Scouts and 45% better killers than (vanilla) Sternquard. Hmm... must be something to do with the fact that we are elite veterans ...and the fact that I gave some of our best weapons to my Kill-Teams ;) What I'm really surprised is that even with our most expensive weapons our WPP is better compared to the cheapest SM unit possible. Obvious comment now is that one can take two Scout squads where DW can take only one. True but we still kill more and with better WPP which makes me question that "DW point cost is not good enough for what they do" claim I sometimes hear. I think we are good to cause damage (troops) but our durability is poor. More bodies gives not only better durability but also better tactical flexibility and options when grabbing/keeping objectives, screening other units, etc so less is not always more.

 

So what do you think, do you agree the results and does this point of view make any sense? I took Scouts just because they are so cheap but interested what real world SM units I should analyse next? For example how to you equip your Sternquard Vets?

[Mobius0288]

It's not so much a math-hammer issue. You get kill teams that can add 3 other types of infantry, most get special issue ammunition and each model can pretty much take any weapon. Consequently, each model costs a few more points which means less bodies on the table as any army. People tend to look at it as an army vs army output, not a single unit.

 

Most of us know a single unit kill team doesn't have an equivalent in the troop choice category, especially if you add 2 terminators and a VV - my kill team just gained 2+ armor saves and the "fly" tactic. And they're objective secured as of chapter approved. Now just sprinkle in your power weapons, storm shields and frag cannons.

 

But now I've spent 270 pts on a single kill team where as a space marine player has spent the points on 2 scout squads, 1 tactical squad and a razorback. As a space marine player, I could fill in my minimum requirements for a battalion so I can move on to getting the bigger toys in my army (and command points). For DW to keep that approach, our best bet is mixing in some intercessors so we can deck out our kill teams or bring in the heavy support we need to go toe-to-toe against long range vehicles.

 

 

In all honesty, we just want to take more cool (fluffy), decked out kill teams without sacrificing the ability to take other units which that other armies capitalize on - long range shooting, tanky vehicles, deep strike anchor points and/or command points (for future stratagems). 

[Drizzt79]

The issue IMO is not so much about the damage, but more about survivability.

 

I like to use one strong kill team in my army, 6 vets (3 frag, 3bolters+3SShields), adding 3 terminators (1 with assault cannon)...one simple cheaper killteam (bolters + chainsword) , and one with stalkers to sit back. 3 kill teams tot 630 points

 

In a 2000pts game you can add some speed with bikers and incessors (thx gw for the price drop), and a corvus.

 

A couple of razorbacks, a venerable dreadnought, a vindicare assassin, and a scout squad with camo and snipers

 

HQ watchmaster and a librarian terminator (with beacon angelis, to take the strong kill team where needed)

 

So you can get everything you need: speed, heavy fire, deep strike ability and a good survivability.....with 6CPs

[spacewatch]

It's not so much a math-hammer issue. You get kill teams that can add 3 other types of infantry, most get special issue ammunition and each model can pretty much take any weapon. Consequently, each model costs a few more points which means less bodies on the table as any army. People tend to look at it as an army vs army output, not a single unit.

 

 

Well this game is mix of luck (dice) and experience (tactical eye). Tactics and army list is all you can decide so I totally agree with you that perspective should be the whole army (vs. another army). However, when you look at your army and plan what it should do you actually look individual units and what roles they should take and what weapons you give them to fulfil those roles. This is IMO where WPP comes into play because it helps you to find maybe a bit more economical way to make the kills and this saves points for more expensive purchases (big toys). On the other hand you may find totally different build that is as efficient and cost effective but enables secondary role for you unit. For example unit of seven Stalker Vets plus one one SS costs the same as Hellblaster squad with Plasma Incinerators, is almost as durable, is almost as effective against light vehicles and clearly much better when killing horde due to Hellfire rounds.

 

 

Most of us know a single unit kill team doesn't have an equivalent in the troop choice category, especially if you add 2 terminators and a VV - my kill team just gained 2+ armor saves and the "fly" tactic. And they're objective secured as of chapter approved. Now just sprinkle in your power weapons, storm shields and frag cannons.

 

But now I've spent 270 pts on a single kill team where as a space marine player has spent the points on 2 scout squads, 1 tactical squad and a razorback. As a space marine player, I could fill in my minimum requirements for a battalion so I can move on to getting the bigger toys in my army (and command points). For DW to keep that approach, our best bet is mixing in some intercessors so we can deck out our kill teams or bring in the heavy support we need to go toe-to-toe against long range vehicles.

 

Again, I totally agree. Cheaper Troops would give points to buy bigger and more expensive toys. I too would like to run three Xiphon's as an air wing detachment because they would eat Orc transports and Gorganaut for breakfast (and make me semi-competitive in my local meta). On the other hand more than that I'd actually like to have lascannons as a heavy weapon choice for our kill teams (Vets or Termies). This would boost our Stalker units so much that actually I don't know why would I buy those Xiphons anymore. I'd buy another Corvus Blackstar and put another big durable Kill-Team in because...

 

...the more I read about the Deathwatch and try to understand why our rules are what they are I think that everything else is more or less ok except base cost and durability of our Kill-Teams. Meaning that our versatility clearly gives us better killing abilities as well as better WPP to do the kills, but our durability is not comparable to what is written for example in Watchers in death where just couple of Vets counter number of Orc attacks. Adding two Termies, couple of Vets with SS's and Vanguard with plasma pistol and power axe is currently the best way to enhance durability but result is big and expensive Kill-Team. Big and expensive Kill-Teams are ok when more firepower or some ability is needed (and not very expensive when you think about it /note 1/) but using Termies just for durability is not very fluff. Speaking of bigger Kill-Teams ...when I look my journey with the Deathwatch I used to put two 'standard' 130-160 pts Kill-Teams plus Captain inside Corvus which is 260-320 pts for the Kill-Teams. Now that I know better what my Vets can do I have used only one but bigger Kill-Team that is actually same or similar what you described. It is cheaper than my previous two Kill-Teams but does the job and because of Termies and SS's it is not totally destroyed in most games I have had and thus can continue fighting elsewhere thanks to teleport homers. My point is that if our Frag team is twice as good killer as Sternguard is then I happily give them two termies and as many SS's as needed to make them fight as long as possible because that is still more economical than what average SM unit is and also closer to the fluff I read. Shooty Kill-Team that just don't die is also tactically very annoying. 

In all honesty, we just want to take more cool (fluffy), decked out kill teams without sacrificing the ability to take other units which that other armies capitalize on - long range shooting, tanky vehicles, deep strike anchor points and/or command points (for future stratagems). 

 

Strategems are very situational and I agree that they can make the difference between winning or losing. But, couple of stratagems because of extra detachment is not much IMO. There are armies that can generate new command points during the game or do some stratagem activities without actually using stratagems. What I mean is that I practically use only the Re-Roll stratagem which is great but when I played my army as Salamanders for couple of games their chapter tactic gave me re-rolls worth of 40+ command points - for free.

 

EDIT: wording

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Note 1. My previous Frag team + Termie (axe, SB) + Termie (axe, AC) + VVet (axe, PP) does 15,240 damage and 0,0506 WPP which is three times the kills, three times expensive and same WPP as Sternquard. Looks like game is more or less balanced regarding shooting and fighting.

Edited January 7, 2018 by spacewatch

[spacewatch]

The issue IMO is not so much about the damage, but more about survivability.

 

I like to use one strong kill team in my army, 6 vets (3 frag, 3bolters+3SShields), adding 3 terminators (1 with assault cannon)...one simple cheaper killteam (bolters + chainsword) , and one with stalkers to sit back. 3 kill teams tot 630 points

 

I have had success with very similar unit (x2 Frag + x2 Termies + x1 VVet). If we could put Aphotecary into Corvus to keep those Termies alive turn after turn that would be awesome.

 

In a 2000pts game you can add some speed with bikers and incessors (thx gw for the price drop), and a corvus.

 

A couple of razorbacks, a venerable dreadnought, a vindicare assassin, and a scout squad with camo and snipers

 

HQ watchmaster and a librarian terminator (with beacon angelis, to take the strong kill team where needed)

 

So you can get everything you need: speed, heavy fire, deep strike ability and a good survivability.....with 6CPs

 

 

Yes, you can make very strong DW list for semi-competitive casual games. Howerver, after playing against competitive Orc list (I play a lot against the Orcs) I have to agree with the others in this forum that semi-competitive is the top floor for pure DW army (my heart bleeds to admit that fact) because after that our expensive troops become limiting factor. I'm not so worried about the boots on the ground but what I mean is that all the durability Termies and SS's give us against normal shooting is useless against Smite spam. Llast game (Orcs) had 10 psykers and you can try to either to kill those psykers fast or make them Smite something you don't need anymore (empty transports) but both of these tactics are very hard to do with pure DW because we don't have sniper rifles and not enough points to buy extra transports or heavier vehicles.

[Drizzt79]

10 ork psykers sounds nasty. Thats why I add that vindicare and a scout team (under the imperium faction).

 

To play pure deathwatch we would need the sniper rule on the stalkers (we had it in 7th ed)....and the additional mortal wound on 6 to wound would be appreciated too