Predators vs. Sicarans

[BloodTzar]

Hello brothers,

 

while having only few games under my belt in 8th, I am still trying to find something that works for me. While testing lists I have tried out SICARANS and I must admit they just shocked me with how good they might be.

Therefore I would like to ask what is the best support unit for BA-at-your-face amry. If its all beloved predator or the FW shiny toy Sicaran?

 

Lets have a closer look,

 

PREDATOR

(Under 2melta boms of 200 plus 2)

HEAVY SLOT

 

BS 3 M12" T7 W11

You get 2d3 shots S7 AP-1 D3 plus 2 S9 AP-3 D D6 - nice steady platform that sits in backfield, all it takes to shot down is one charge to get it off for 2 turns.

 

SICARAN

(3melta bombs over 200)

ELITE SLOT - Relic rule - (you have to balance Relic and normal slots 1:1 ratio minimum)

 

BS 3 M14" T7 W14

You get 8 shots (that are assault ) S7 -1(no penalty to fly; -3 at 6 to W) plus HB shots and 2 LC shots. I mean from the weapon profiles, its reasonably mobile platform that can more to the heat of battle yet similar armed as PREDATOR

 

For me 2 of them proved to be very versatile platforms that proved to be quite durable due to W14 vs. W11, yet they are quite bigger thus getting 50% into cover might be an issue over PREDATOR.

 

IS the additional cost worth the profile?What is your opinion?

 

BT 

[Are Verlo]

Well, as single models (comparing 1 pred to 1 sicaran) I think the sicaran is worth it. When you go all in, 3 predators with killshot is some heavy firepower.

 

If you want to compare tanks 1 on 1 for «big game hunting», I find the sicaran venator quite good. Just the neutron cannon and heavy bolter gives great value and can keep dealing damage on the move.

[Ishagu]

The Sicaran is excellent, truly.

 

It's only downside is the relic rule - and this is actually a significant downside as it limits the number you can take and can impact the number of detachments you can take in some cases.

 

If you have elite choices and a free slot in your army by all means run the Sicaran.

The Sicaran Venator is also an excellent unit - very fast and great damage output with no movement penalties.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Ishagu

[Blackcadian]

I don’t have a Predator but I‘ve played 3 games with my Sicaran so far. Whilst firepower wise I’m a little disappointed it never fails to draw a huge amount of attention. People know it’s a Forge World model and are still in the mindset of “zomg FW units are so OP!!!!” so my other stuff often gets left alone which is nice. I’ll happily keep bringing it.

[BloodTzar]

I am still waiting to get 2 of my venators from FW, although they are for the 30k WBs, I guess few play test games in BA colours would be fine

 

On the other hand, I have to second on the "FW scare" part, I do run 2 of  the regular sicarans, usually one of them dies T1 while absorbing hell lot of enemy firepower, allowing Xiphon to live to another day Still the second, is capable to deal enough damage to justify its self (termie sq, stormtalon, few marines here and there )

 

With the game as its now, moreover with the fact how some HQs have been shifted to elites; its quite easy to fit 2-3 sicarans in. I mean yes, you dont get the KILLSHOT stratgem, however the mobility and versatile firepower it offers justifies them for me

 

BT

Edited January 8, 2018 by BloodTzar

[Ishagu]

Killshot is vastly overrated. Killing one Predator ends the possibility of using it.

 

If you don't have turn 1 you'll basically never use it.

[Shaezus]

Just to clarify, 3 Sicarans would be legal if accompanied by 3 normal elite choices, say a DC squad and 2 sternguard squads?

 

I had great success with a single Sicaran in 7th ed and this is making me consider a mech list. 3 of them might make me comfortable enough taking a land raider for the DC. Maybe even have Dante babysitting them and maybe room for a couple of dreads once the scouts and razorbacks are thrown in.

[Ishagu]

Yeah. The easiest way of doing it is by taking apothecaries.

[dakkamasta]

The Sicaran is my favourite Astartes tank looks wise, fluff wise and rules wise. I've used it in nearly every game with Blood Angels ever since I bought it. I'm not a fan of the predator parking lot for a Blood Angels army so I tend to not run many. As a standalone tank the Sicaran is just great as it can do hefty damage on tanks, shoot flyers out of the sky, and can even kill a decent amount of infantry if it has no better targets. On top of the increased mobility and extra wounds makes it a winner in my eyes. On top of the fact that its a great looking model.

[Ishagu]

It has a nice wound degradation chart, only falling to minimum stats when it's down to 2 wounds as well.

[Blackcadian]

So after a few of you good people recommended the Venator I thought I’d have a look at the profile since I’ve always liked the model anyway. Looked at the other Sicaran variants while I was at it, even though the looks of those don’t really keep up with the first two variants.

 

So the Venator looks decent enough on paper, the only thing that bothers me is the D6 damage. And I couldnt think of anything T6 from the top of my head where the high S might be useful. In fact, comparing the Venator to the Deimos Vindicator Laser Destroyer I almost like that one better. T8, 4 shots S9 3 damage or 2 shots S10 6 damage looks good, too. 2 less wounds and only 36“ range are the drawbacks, but they cost almost exactly the same points wise, and the Vindi is cheaper in cash. An alternative to bear in mind imo.

 

Of the newer Sicaran variants I found the Arcus the most interesting. 2D6 shots s5 -2, and 6s to wound generate additional mortal wounds when targeting infantry. Nothing fancy but its fairly cheap compared to the others, and retains its sturdy chassis. Plus you have the option to shoot 4D6 shots but then it cant shoot the next shooting phase, but when something REALLY has to die...

Edited January 8, 2018 by Blackcadian

[Are Verlo]

The fixed damage of the laser-vindi is nice. But to compete in firepower it has to remain stationary. The venator can move 14” and still fire 3 shots from the main gun and both lascannons. The move + 12” extra range makes the venator superior in my eyes.

 

But as posted above the fixed damage will make the lasvindi very reliable and you will never find your self looking shocked at your dice when 3 failed saves results in 4 damage in total

[Indefragable]

I liked Predators for armor saturation (pair nicely with 3+ Razorbacks) and the power of Killshot. Seriously, Killshot is one of the best Strategems in the game...

 

...when you can pull it off. And that’s the problem: preds just cost way too much for what they can(t) do. Anything a Pred can do another unit can do cheaper, especially Rbacks. Except Killshot, but to really make that work you have to buff them up and somehow not have to move (-1 To Hit) them into position to get both 6” of 2 of each other and LoS on an ideal target.

 

As a result, though I do love me some 2D3shot S8 AP-1 D:4 autocannons, I just don’t think they’re worth it.

[Blackcadian]

The fixed damage of the laser-vindi is nice. But to compete in firepower it has to remain stationary. The venator can move 14” and still fire 3 shots from the main gun and both lascannons. The move + 12” extra range makes the venator superior in my eyes.

But as posted above the fixed damage will make the lasvindi very reliable and you will never find your self looking shocked at your dice when 3 failed saves results in 4 damage in total

Hmm I agree with you when the tank in question is on the move, and it even extends to the sponsons which is nice. But at least my Sicaran Battle Tank has moved maybe once in 3 games so far, so... I struggle to see a situation where I’d have to move it.

[Ishagu]

The Laser Vindi only has a 36" range.

 

It's a good vehicle though. T8 and 12 wounds is much better than t7

[Brother_Mike]

Killshot is vastly overrated. Killing one Predator ends the possibility of using it.

 

If you don't have turn 1 you'll basically never use it.

 

In what situations? How many points are you playing? Who is your opponent? Do you have a techmarine to run around repairing these Predators? Do they have line of sight on your predators?

[Kallas]

One of the things I've been toying with is a Killshot formation that doesn't rely on the Stratagem but can really benefit from it.

 

3 Twin LC/2 HB Predators can put out good firepower and are reasonably cheap (for vehicles) at 172 each. If I can get Killshot off first turn relatively reliably (ie, good terrain for LOS blocking and my list often having plenty of drops to delay their deployment) then I will cluster them facing down a good target. If I think I'll have them focused quickly, I'll deploy them late and try to find them good covered positions (either in cover or fully out of LOS).

 

Thing is, even if they have to move to get a good firing position, they can still do good damage, particularly if you have Killshot available. With LOS blockers and a 12" move you can bring them all together from quite far apart, or more likely use that move to push them up into good firing position.

 

I think sometimes we can over/undervalue something based on Stratagems. Killshot is an excellent Stratagem in action, but using them with the idea that you're not using it is best. Take advantage of the terrain and targets as they come and don't always go for using Killshot.

 

On their own merits they're not flashy, but they're solid.

[Shaezus]

I haven't played since 7th ed and won't be playing anytime soon, so my entire 40k experience now is limited to drooling over the codex and FW index, reading this forum and watching YouTube batreps. Basically pure fantasising / theoreticising.

 

This thread really got me thinking though, because when I started running even just a single Sicaran back in 7th, the win ratio went through the roof. Including a comfortable tourny win against the dominant Eldar list at the time, with the Sicaran making mincemeat of wave serpents.

 

I'm thinking a competitive BA list can possibly be built around 3 Sicarans. Here's a quick breakdown of my idea so far:

 

Battalion

 

Dante

Captain hammerage

3 x 5 scouts

1 x 5 sternguard

1 x sanguinary novitiate

1 x company ancient w. Banner

2 x TLAC razorback

1 x TLLC razorback

 

Vanguard det.

 

Libby with angel's wing and force sword. Quickening + wings.

3 x Relic Sicaran

 

This leaves roughly 230 points to play with. Maybe a lieutenant to make another detachment from the first 3 elite units, plus another unit of scouts. Or DC, because the list doesn't really feel like the opponent will taste the strong flavour of BA in his defeat. I actually want to take a Leviathan, just to take the firepower from murderous to heinous levels.

 

Dante provides some offset to what seems to be common -1 to hit xenos shenanigans from army wide bonuses or psychic powers. Babysits Sicarans and deals with anything coming close.

 

Cap'n hammerage performs brutal surgery on big tough things.

 

Libby performs jumpy surgery on characters, psykers, heavy weapon teams.

 

Razorbacks screen Sicarans and protect obsec units if needed. Besides providing plenty dakka.

 

The most obvious weakness is a lack of specific anti TEQ ie plasma. Maybe plasma Inceptors or vets could fill the remaining points. Otherwise in theory the list can deal with hordes, flyers, vehicles and MC whilst also making low T weaponry redundant whilst troops are in transports.

 

Anyway thanks for reading the rambles. Any thoughts would be welcomed.

[dakkamasta]

I haven't played since 7th ed and won't be playing anytime soon, so my entire 40k experience now is limited to drooling over the codex and FW index, reading this forum and watching YouTube batreps. Basically pure fantasising / theoreticising.

 

This thread really got me thinking though, because when I started running even just a single Sicaran back in 7th, the win ratio went through the roof. Including a comfortable tourny win against the dominant Eldar list at the time, with the Sicaran making mincemeat of wave serpents.

 

I'm thinking a competitive BA list can possibly be built around 3 Sicarans. Here's a quick breakdown of my idea so far:

 

Battalion

 

Dante

Captain hammerage

3 x 5 scouts

1 x 5 sternguard

1 x sanguinary novitiate

1 x company ancient w. Banner

2 x TLAC razorback

1 x TLLC razorback

 

Vanguard det.

 

Libby with angel's wing and force sword. Quickening + wings.

3 x Relic Sicaran

 

This leaves roughly 230 points to play with. Maybe a lieutenant to make another detachment from the first 3 elite units, plus another unit of scouts. Or DC, because the list doesn't really feel like the opponent will taste the strong flavour of BA in his defeat. I actually want to take a Leviathan, just to take the firepower from murderous to heinous levels.

 

Dante provides some offset to what seems to be common -1 to hit xenos shenanigans from army wide bonuses or psychic powers. Babysits Sicarans and deals with anything coming close.

 

Cap'n hammerage performs brutal surgery on big tough things.

 

Libby performs jumpy surgery on characters, psykers, heavy weapon teams.

 

Razorbacks screen Sicarans and protect obsec units if needed. Besides providing plenty dakka.

 

The most obvious weakness is a lack of specific anti TEQ ie plasma. Maybe plasma Inceptors or vets could fill the remaining points. Otherwise in theory the list can deal with hordes, flyers, vehicles and MC whilst also making low T weaponry redundant whilst troops are in transports.

 

Anyway thanks for reading the rambles. Any thoughts would be welcomed

 

It's a pretty solid firebase you've got going there but the problem is that the Relic rule means you need a 1:1 ratio of elite units for each Sicaran in the same detachment. So you would be better off dropping the libby putting the Sicarans into the Battalion and then using the points to add something more punchy as your list is lacking in a strong close combat element. 

 

To be honest I would replace all 3 elite choices in your battalion. The banner only affects infantry so it won't be doing much, the novitiate doesn't have any good targets to heal and the sternguard won't get much done with only 5 guys. Maybe some Death Company or even just more Sternguard to fill up the Razorbacks? The list already has a good amount of dakka so using the rest of your points for either more high Strength/AP/Damage weaponry or a strong close combat element to deter charges against your precious Sicarans would be a good idea.

[Blackcadian]

So I got in 2 games today and decided to proxy my Sicaran Battle Tank as a Venator in the 2nd. I gotta admit it was kinda cool being able to move around without -1 to hit as we were playing one of the new Eternal War missions were you split your force into 3 parts and everything comes in piecemeal.

 

Ultimately though I was a bit disappointed when I learned how good Onager Dune Crawlers (Neutron Lasers) can be in comparison. It was just 1 game but the 5++ on them and the 3 dmg minimum are really good. And they’re a lot cheaper. It doesn’t help the perception when you finally get something through the invul and then roll a 4 on 2D6 for the damage. Whereas the Neutron Laser burns straight through our armor.

[Shaezus]

Not sure if the OP got the PVs wrong for the Sicaran?

 

31 meltabombs base cost. Plus 2mb for the heavy bolter. Plus 15mb for the twin accelerator and another 10mb for 2 lascannons. So I make it 58 meltabombs fully equipped?

 

I might be wrong but it is also quite weaker now than in 7th; 8 shots compared to the old 7 shots re-rolling misses and it no longer ignores the jink rule. Swapped this for ignoring -1 to hit on fliers. Hmm. CompletelyConfused.com

[Ishagu]

Not sure if the OP got the PVs wrong for the Sicaran?

 

31 meltabombs base cost. Plus 2mb for the heavy bolter. Plus 15mb for the twin accelerator and another 10mb for 2 lascannons. So I make it 58 meltabombs fully equipped?

 

I might be wrong but it is also quite weaker now than in 7th; 8 shots compared to the old 7 shots re-rolling misses and it no longer ignores the jink rule. Swapped this for ignoring -1 to hit on fliers. Hmm. CompletelyConfused.com

You don't own Chapter Approved by the look of things.

The Sicaran cost was greatly reduced.

 

It's a very fast vehicle with better survivability and firepower for a small increase in cost. As I said, it's limited by being a really relic which, in certain lists looking for efficiency can be a real issue (it affects my lists regularly).

Edited January 14, 2018 by Ishagu

[Shaezus]

 

Not sure if the OP got the PVs wrong for the Sicaran?

 

31 meltabombs base cost. Plus 2mb for the heavy bolter. Plus 15mb for the twin accelerator and another 10mb for 2 lascannons. So I make it 58 meltabombs fully equipped?

 

I might be wrong but it is also quite weaker now than in 7th; 8 shots compared to the old 7 shots re-rolling misses and it no longer ignores the jink rule. Swapped this for ignoring -1 to hit on fliers. Hmm. CompletelyConfused.com

You don't own Chapter Approved by the look of things.

The Sicaran cost was greatly reduced.

 

It's a very fast vehicle with better survivability and firepower for a small increase in cost. As I said, it's limited by being a really relic which, in certain lists looking for efficiency can be a real issue (it affects my lists regularly).

Nope I don't own that, but am glad to be corrected in this case. The 'relic tax' isn't so bad for me because having sternguard and DC is something I always did anyway and the DC with Lemmy seem to be the ideal assault complement to a Sicaran firebase. Great to know their cost was reduced.