Are Veteran Bikers worth taking over Assault Terminators?

[Shade534]

Greetings all!

 

I've been lurking for a while now, and finally decided to write a post myself. I haven’t played much since 3rd edition, and only properly rejoined near the end of 7th, so I don’t have much game experience at the moment. With that in mind, i'd like to ask the following question. Have Company Veterans on Bikes eclipsed Assault Terminators as the top tier of close combat infantry for vanilla marines?

 

Looking at the relative stats of the two units, and assuming they have the same loadout and the same number of models in each unit, I find that I'm leaning more towards Biker Vets. For instance, let's compare a 5-man squad of each, kitted out with TH/SS. Admittedly Biker Vets are quite expensive, at 57pts per model compared to the Terminators 47pts per model, you lose the +2 armour save, and the ability to deep strike and teleport, which is a blow. However, you gain +1T, +9” Movement, Turbo Boost, the ability to bodyguard bike characters if needs be, the option to trade out a few storm shields for more dakka, AND the firepower of a 10-man tactical squad via their twin boltguns. Additionally, if you split them into 1x two-man squad and 1x three-man squad, you get +1 attack due to the extra veteran sergeant?

 

What this translates to in my head is that a Vet Biker squad can move faster (fast enough not to require dedicated transport), hit harder, shoot the hell out of anything they're about to charge, are slightly more resilient, more versatile and can act as ablative wounds to nearby biker characters in desperate circumstances (although at 57pts per model you'd better REALLY like that character ). What they cannot do is appear on the board wherever they please and promptly turn your enemy’s favourite unit into Jam in one round of close combat with no warning whatsoever. However, this role can be filled just as well by Vanguard Veterans in most places, with the added bonus that once they’ve mulched whatever it is, being highly mobile allows them to quickly move on to other targets, and perhaps avoid getting blown off the table in retaliation. Also, if they do get dakka’d to pieces, they didn’t cost as much as the Terminators anyway.

 

Apologies if I’m being woefully naive, I’m hardly an experienced player. I would like to hear your thoughts on the subject What have your experiences been with these units and do you have a preference? Do they perhaps each have a specific niche to fill and if so, what? Have I missed something blindingly obvious?

 

Cheers

Edited January 7, 2018 by Shade534
Edited buggy formatting.

[Claws and Effect]

I'd never give bike vets storm shields.

 

I'd do melta or flamer (depending on what I want them to kill), and melee weapon of choice.

 

So for me, assault termies are still more resilient.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Claws and Effect

[Firepower]

I feel like they perform two different roles, even if kitted out similarly.  Bikers are an omnipresent threat, because of their speed.  They can get where they need to be when they need to be there, but you pay a hefty price tag for them.  The combination of bolters and, if we're comparing apples to apples, shields and hammers makes them a do-anything unit.  However, because of their speed, you also want them to remain largely mobile for most of the game.  It lends itself better to shooting than assault, because that super fast unit gets stuck in place if it actually charges.

 

Terminators, on the other hand, are a rock.   When they teleport in, that section of the table becomes theirs.  The opponent has the option of running away from them, which makes him reactive and you proactive, or he can try to dislodge them through either a charge (bad idea unless you teleported next to nasty melee units) or by throwing a whole bunch of shots their way.  In either scenario, you're seizing initiative.  The ability to poof out of a fight back to a beacon is a real bonus that shouldn't be undervalued or forgotten.  That said, it's because of things like this and the meta as a whole that most players are keenly aware of denying Deep Strike  territory by deploying their armies in a wide net.

 

So in short, Biker Vets are better served shooting than charging, zipping around to where you need something melted in a hurry.  On a side note, a Captain on a bike is a very dangerous unit, especially for Templars with the aura buffing relic.  Giving him a Vet escort that can benefit from his bubble could potentially go a very long way.  I played one game with that HQ unit and the relic, and any time I needed those rerolls somewhere, he could get there, and when he charged he smashed real hard with just a Relic Blade (meaning he slaughtered a whole Cataphractii squad over the span of 2 turns).

Edited January 8, 2018 by Firepower

[CCE1981]

Storm sheilds on bikes are amazing for 5 pts. Thunderhammers, on a unit of bikers not so much. Bikes want to shoot, a combi-melta is disgusting on bikes. If you only have chaff you are firing 3 bolters from each guy, vehicles/monstrous creatire/ characters you have that meltagun!

[Kallas]

Bikes want to shoot, a combi-melta is disgusting on bikes. If you only have chaff you are firing 3 bolters from each guy, vehicles/monstrous creatire/ characters you have that meltagun!

Statistically, you're better off firing the full Combi Weapon at a chaff unit: you lower the Combi's accuracy by 20% but increase volume of fire by 50-100% (depending on your Combi Weapon). Although it should go without saying that you shouldn't overcharge your Combi Plasma if you're firing like that!

 

Edit:

But yes, load them for bear at range. They can kick out a lot of fire. Another option would be giving them Storm Bolters, as then they're kicking out buckets of dice (8 shots each at 12"!) and that keeps their cost down.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Kallas

[breng77]

I'm not sure either are really worth it.  Though if I were to take vet bikers I think I'd go with Storm bolters and storm shields.  Combi-s are ok but get very expensive on already expensive models.

[Shade534]

Thanks for the in-depth responses guys, very helpful, and definitely prompted a bit of a rethink as far as my next project is concerned :D I think the consensus so far is that biker vets can be pretty effective at anything, but you pay through the nose for it so that effectiveness is best used plugging the deficiencies in our codex, rather than trying to outperform one of its stronger entries. Edited January 9, 2018 by Shade534

[Jacques Corbin]

I feel like they perform two different roles, even if kitted out similarly. Bikers are an omnipresent threat, because of their speed. They can get where they need to be when they need to be there, but you pay a hefty price tag for them. The combination of bolters and, if we're comparing apples to apples, shields and hammers makes them a do-anything unit. However, because of their speed, you also want them to remain largely mobile for most of the game. It lends itself better to shooting than assault, because that super fast unit gets stuck in place if it actually charges.

 

Terminators, on the other hand, are a rock. When they teleport in, that section of the table becomes theirs. The opponent has the option of running away from them, which makes him reactive and you proactive, or he can try to dislodge them through either a charge (bad idea unless you teleported next to nasty melee units) or by throwing a whole bunch of shots their way. In either scenario, you're seizing initiative. The ability to poof out of a fight back to a beacon is a real bonus that shouldn't be undervalued or forgotten. That said, it's because of things like this and the meta as a whole that most players are keenly aware of denying Deep Strike territory by deploying their armies in a wide net.

 

So in short, Biker Vets are better served shooting than charging, zipping around to where you need something melted in a hurry. On a side note, a Captain on a bike is a very dangerous unit, especially for Templars with the aura buffing relic. Giving him a Vet escort that can benefit from his bubble could potentially go a very long way. I played one game with that HQ unit and the relic, and any time I needed those rerolls somewhere, he could get there, and when he charged he smashed real hard with just a Relic Blade (meaning he slaughtered a whole Cataphractii squad over the span of 2 turns).

Analysis from FP?!

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I've regarded biker vets as superior assault terminators since fifth edition. Of course I liked all bike armies back then, so there wasn't much option if I wanted something for beating face.

 

Although I prefer thunder hammers to power fists, you can squeeze a few more points out of the squad by downgrading thunder hammers to power fists. With the -1 to hit it's best to take unwieldy weapons in bulk though, rather than rely on one or two in the squad.

 

With an extra attack and access to free chainswords I regard your basic biker command squad as a substitute for the bike squad. A squad of three costs 27 points more than three bikers with the same ranged weapons (and can go to five, all with special weapons, if you want to) but generates three times the number of attacks in melee. If you want extra durability trade the sword for a storm shield.

[Firepower]

 

Maybe he needs a break from his production forge after that Stormraven...

 

 

Actually, it's the Tesseract commission I'm overdue on. 

 

But being the cantankerous venerable Chaplain I am doesn't mean I don't know a thing or two about strategy.  For instance, the pointy end goes in the heretic, and there's no such thing as excessive force. :D

[Leonaides]

To be fair, you can stick the blunt end in the heretic too. Makes a nice splatter effect on his friends when you then pull the trigger too......

 

Interior decoration tips, astartes style

[Ipsen]

To be fair, you can stick the blunt end in the heretic too. Makes a nice splatter effect on his friends when you then pull the trigger too......

 

Interior decoration tips, astartes style

 

For summoning demons in style #NotATraitor

[Leonaides]

cant kill them till they come out of the warp to play...

[Claws and Effect]

I'm planning a Biker Vet squad to serve as an escort for a Biker Captain.

 

Effectively increases his wounds by 10 ;).

 

I'm keeping them cheap. Storm bolters and chainswords. Found over/under storm bolters on Shapeways that I'm going to mount on the fairings. That way I can stick the chainswords in their left hand and actually have the proper hand controlling the bike.