Inceptors New Points

[Captain Idaho]

That's a nice list.

 

I think the Vanguard will help saturate the opponent with targets to keep some plasma Inceptors from taking the fire.

 

***

 

Incidentally it appears you are following a similar approach as myself regards to 8th edition Space Marines; boots on the ground.

 

It works eh.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Captain Idaho

[SyNidus]

That's a nice list.

 

I think the Vanguard will help saturate the opponent with targets to keep some plasma Inceptors from taking the fire.

 

***

 

Incidentally it appears you are following a similar approach as myself regards to 8th edition Space Marines; boots on the ground.

 

It works eh.

I don't know if it works yet, lol. But i've moved away from my previous build which was air cav based.

 

One thing i worry about is how my list will be able to deal with going second.

 

Anyway, back on topic, have anyone used the plasceptors in an anti-tank/monster role?

[breng77]

In Codex Space Marines I don't think they are super great at it, just ok.  I use mine in that role, but use them as DA because the +1 damage stratagem makes a huge difference in this regard.

 

A squad of 3 Plasma inceptors average 12 shots, assuming they hit normally (no -1) that is 8 hits. Overcharging against T7 that is ~5(5.3) wounds (4 against T8), most vehicles have a 3+ save so you end up with ~4(4.4) wounds to T7 and 3(3.3) to T8.  So that is an average of 8 damage to T7 and 6 to T8.  So not terrible but at their cost they are fairly likely not to kill a vehicle which is an issue.  The DA stratagem ups those to 12 and 9 damage respectively which is a big difference.

 

If you get them re-rolls to hit it also helps so if they are landing near shrike in your list these numbers go up a bit (10.6 hits, 7wound (T7), 6 unsaved = 12 damage (8 damage to T8))

 

So they are decent but not amazing for their points, their biggest advantage is that they don't get blown off the table prior to getting to shoot.  But they don't have a lot of staying power, and if they are your only real option in this role I don't think they will work out.

[Prot]

I'm just going to give my experiences, since that's really the best way I think I can honestly contribute to the conservation:

 

Before I get into my experiences, here's a quotable or two:

 

 

Anyone tried the Inceptors now with their point reduction?

I've been thinking of using them in a heavy infiltrator/deep strike list

 

Many, many times. I never (well almost never) theory hammer. I've used both variants multiple times, but previous to the point reduction the plasma variant were nearly unusable.

 

 

The plasma versions are a tad expensive really. Just shy of 180pts for 3 models with only 6 wounds between them is outrageously vulnerable. Space Marines are outnumbered so I do not approve of the glass cannon, Termicide approach.

Assault Bolters is nice and affordable though. Get them if you're getting Inceptors.

 

Post point reduction I think their cost is ... nearly acceptable. This again is based on play experience.

 

Honestly guys I think we have to acknowledge that a lot of the bickering about this unit (and MANY Primaris units like it) is we are talking from different playing experiences and backgrounds. So let me just lay down some honest groundwork:

 

1. When I'm playing cut throat opponents/ITC/competitive/whatever, almost ANY Primaris unit is very hard to make the cut with, and inevitably (nearly) all marine lists are very, very different with and without Guilliman. So for the sake of argument, my results are from a non-Guilliman perspective which is quite honestly only fair.

 

2. My perspective of this argument comes mostly from playing (nearly) pure Primaris since release date. Why do I mention this? Because I believe all things are not equal between Primaris and 'normal' Marines. Old School marines are still well ahead of the Cawl variant in pure competitiveness from my experiences. (What I'm saying here is if you hardly use Primaris, there's almost no reason to include this unit, because you aren't hampered by a lack of Las/Missiles/Devs/Razorbacks, etc, etc) Perspective is pretty important here.

 

So finally after setting this perspective, and competitiveness of the environment, I think in a Primarily Primaris army, with a medium competitiveness, this is a fine unit. In a no holds barred environment you will be hard pressed to find a competitive winning marine army that has enjoyed large success with this unit.

 

Their upside is with all that D3 shooting, and dropping in with re-rolls (I use Calgar almost all the time), this unit can be really good.

 

The Badside: The "Primaris Problem": No ablative wounds. Each death is a direct negative on your offensive abilities. Also even with re-rolls, GW's insistence on a 'fatality' (instead of a wound loss) on overcharge misshaps is always a factor (for me).

 

The Badside: Glass cannon. Even at T4, and that speed, everyone hates this unit. They'd much rather put up with your Intercessors slowly plodding up field with their monochromatic Cawl Patter Bolters, than have to put up with another turn of 3 dudes overcharging a mess of plasma guns.

 

This means either you are throwing them away to commit them to a very high priority action (I'm sure we can agree anything less is throwing them away), -OR- they are supported by something that can free them from serious CC threat, or put them in a pocket of protection. I have tried things like: Reivers, and Heavy Bolter Inceptors many times.

 

In my opinion from use, I put them at the mid level of competitiveness, and they will always suffer from Plasma 'issues'... D1 in a Primaris army is quite honestly terrible. The cost of the unit makes it hard to leave them to their own devices, yet the big question you will end up asking yourself: How many points, and what percentage of my army am I willing to invest in the damage potential of this squad?

 

Finally, I would suggest we would actually never see this unit if there was a Primaris Flyer ala Stormraven. To me the "Cawl-Raven" would spell the end of the Inceptor and I think GW knows this. I think this is why there is no Cawl-Raven. Instantly you would be loading it with Hellblasters and Aggressors. (Maybe not if you're Raven Guard, but for the rest of us.) There would be no reason to drop an expensive squad that can't afford to lose any personnel and it's so difficult to support. Plus the Raven itself is flat out a better option for responding to, and escaping from hard targets.

[breng77]

I find it interesting when no ablative wounds is considered a bad thing.  IT is one of my favorite things about primaris squads.  Ablative wounds can be seen in 2 ways

 

1.) You have wounds that when lost do not greatly impact the offensive output of a unit.

2.) You have paid for models that do not greatly impact the offensive output of a unit.

 

Some people seem to like having a lot of bodies serving as wounds for the few that actually do damage - typical tactical squads for example, have 3-4 ablative wounds for ever special /heavy weapon.

 

I'm the opposite, I would rather have as many models contributing to the damage as possible.

 

I suppose if I could add a single 25 point naked inceptor I might, but once I got to 2 I would rather have a single additional gun toting model.

[Sonminiser]

Inceptors, I also agree don't require ablative wounds as they deep strike. If you don't get first turn they still get a full round of shooting before they can take any return fire.

 

On other types of squads that normally start the game on the field, not in a transport, ablative wounds are great.

[Prot]

Just to clarify, I believe in ablative wounds in my marine squads but I don’t know with the cost of Primaris if I would do that with Inceptors. But yes I strongly believe in the value of it with cheaper marines holding Bolters.

[SyNidus]

Agreed, sometimes i like having ablative wounds, other times/units i prefer maximum output. Inceptors are one such instance of the latter. The plasmas are pretty expensive. Though i could turn accept the cost i think.

 

What targets have you guys found are best for my inceptors?

[Kallas]

What targets have you guys found are best for my inceptors?

Bolters: good against basically anything T3/4 and Save 3+ or higher. They'll shred GEQs all day long; MEQs are a little tougher, but since they're often run MSU they should wreck most units they see.

 

Plasma: great vs MEQs, and they have the volume of fire (on average, anyway) to still shred GEQs (wounding on a 2+ without Overcharged shots is lovely). They're not particularly great vs T8, so quite a few vehicles/monsters, but against T7 they're solid, just don't expect them to handle well as your primary AV.

[Toxichobbit]

Tamiel: one thing to bear in mind for Heavy Flamer Land Speeders is that Heavy Flamers are, in fact, Heavy type, so they cannot advance and shoot without some kind of outside assistance.

 

Idaho (Edit: wrong name!): My apologies if I also came off too harsh. There's definitely something to be said for differing opinions (I don't know how many times I've been stubbornly resistant on the 'losing' side of a forum ) so please do make your points!

 

As I said earlier, I think the biggest issue with them, as with pretty much all Marine units, is their relative fragility. They must be handled with care because they're an expensive (per model) unit that can be focused down easily if you let them.

 

I do think that terrain in 8th Ed is super important to stop games being shooting galleries, and provided enough terrain I think Inceptors will be a fantastic tool. I'm personally running Blood Angels at the moment (their rules just 'feel' more "Adeptus Astartes" to me!) which does make a difference (Upon Wings of Fire is insanely useful, particularly for reapplying their firepower a second time and putting the opponent off balance) but even C:SM should be readily able to get solid use out of them.

 

Raven Guard get to apply their malus thanks to the range on them; White Scar Inceptors can be very mobile, but more for the Bolters than Plasma; Salamanders Inceptors are likely very good, that reroll is always useful; Iron Hands are ok, a decent little boost to survivability; Imperial Fists are good dropping and demolishing a chaff unit or putting wounds on dug in vehicles; Ultramarines Chapter Tactic applies the least as they can already Fall Back and shoot, but they fit well into the UM combat style.

 

Just looking at Chapter Tactics is doing the different Chapters a disservice. For example, you pretty much write off Ultramarines as nothing but a lore friendly choice (in that they fit into the style of an UM army), but Ultramarines do have something to offer them. Their Stratagem, Scions of Guilliman can give the unit re-roll 1s for 1CP. That's a boost in both offensive and defensive capability (less chance of loosing Inceptors to Supercharged plasma so more wounds to survive return fire). Whether it's worth it over a 100pt(ish) jump captain to give the same re-roll, or just accepting that some will die to Supercharge really depends on the player and the list. It's certainly something to consider though.

 

I'd suggest anyone looking at Inceptors look beyond just the relevant Chapter Tactics and see what Chapter-specific stratagems, named characters or combinations with Relics/Warlord Traits can do.

[Deschenus Maximus]

I dislike the Plasmaceptors due to the incredibly high chance (66%) of killing yourself if you don't have rerolls when overcharging, and Bolterceptors are more cost-efficient when shooting not-overcharged.

[Kallas]

 

Ultramarines Chapter Tactic applies the least as they can already Fall Back and shoot, but they fit well into the UM combat style.

Just looking at Chapter Tactics is doing the different Chapters a disservice. For example, you pretty much write off Ultramarines as nothing but a lore friendly choice (in that they fit into the style of an UM army), but Ultramarines do have something to offer them. Their Stratagem, Scions of Guilliman can give the unit re-roll 1s for 1CP. That's a boost in both offensive and defensive capability (less chance of loosing Inceptors to Supercharged plasma so more wounds to survive return fire). Whether it's worth it over a 100pt(ish) jump captain to give the same re-roll, or just accepting that some will die to Supercharge really depends on the player and the list. It's certainly something to consider though.

 

I'd suggest anyone looking at Inceptors look beyond just the relevant Chapter Tactics and see what Chapter-specific stratagems, named characters or combinations with Relics/Warlord Traits can do.

I didn't write them off for Ultramarines, I said they gain nothing from the CT, which is 99% true (they only really benefit from the LD buff in big units).

 

What I meant by "fit the UM combat style" was their gameplay. Ultramarines are a flexible army able to manoeuvre without tethering to buff characters. Inceptors are mobile with good firepower that can dip in and out of melee essentially at will - that's pretty much exactly what Ultramarines want out of a unit.

 

I did breeze over the Stratagems/other Chapter specific aspects. That was mostly just laziness! You're right though, all parts of the Chapter should be considered. Inceptors don't get much out of Salamanders beyond the rerolls, for example (Warlord trait, Relic and Stratagem are for buffing non-Inceptors).

[Galron]

Plasmas are a great tool box unit. They aren't as pricey as everyone makes them out to be in the big scheme of things. They can pour on fire to GEQs with no risk and do heavy damage to MEQs and TEQs. Throw in a commander for the rerolls and you are even better off. I field both units in my standard 2500 point army as I like both the hitting power and sheer number of shots. My main list is an in the face kind of list maximizing short ranged overwhelming firepower at the expense of any real long range ability and in this type of list they are a much better asset than a hellblaster squad would be on its own.

[ERJAK]

Hellblasters are considered a great unit in any level of competitive play.

 

For 12 points more you get a unit with more shots that can deepstrike and doesn't require a transport. I think people are often underestimating the Inceptors.

 

They will always get to shoot first as they don't deploy on the board and will not be targeted before dealing some damage.

Hellblasters don't require a transport, have almost twice as many wounds, and aren't in instant reprisal range the first time they shoot.

[Kallas]

Hellblasters don't require a transport, have almost twice as many wounds, and aren't in instant reprisal range the first time they shoot.

Hellblasters are (assuming regular Plasma Incinerators) roughly 3/5ths the cost of Plasma Inceptors (so approximately 5 Hellblasters to 3 Inceptors).

 

They've got more wounds and higher range, but lower Toughness, mobility and protection from being hit first (ie, Inceptors don't get his until they've deep struck).

 

Considering a 5-man vs 3-man comparison, the Hellblasters have 5-10 shots (depending on range to target/type of Plasma Incinerator chosen) where the Inceptors have 6-18 shots depending on dice.

 

Hellblasters have a more reliable volume of shots; Inceptors are more capable of bringing their shots to bear.

 

It's not a clear cut either way. Hellblasters are a gunline style unit; Inceptors are a scalpel unit. Which one is more suitable depends on what you intend to use them for and what else you're using in a list.

[SyNidus]

In regards to squad size, how big? and how many squads do you guys use?

[Galron]

I just use three dude squads of each, although I might swap a 3 many bolter unit out of my scorps and add to my minotaurs since it fits the theme I use better and the price drop is nice. I haven't decided whether to add a new squad or simply start a new 3 man squad.

[Riddlesworth]

Finally got some experience to weigh in here.

 

I've been agonizing between aggressors and inceptors for some time. I'm playing a raven guard tactics, so the aggressors can be double shooting turn 1 if necessary.

 

For the job I need doing - clearing screens and chaff that will hold up push units (grey knight dreadknights and paladins), they both suffice, but even with the infiltrating double shot from the aggressors, the mobility of the bolter inceptors is winning out.

 

Which makes me sad, because the aggressor models are so pretty.