Plasma Inceptors

[MeltaRange]

Has anyone else been using Plasma Inceptors?  Have any thoughts on them?

 

I ask because this weekend I played a couple of games using some of the concepts I've been thinking about to optimize BA.  Mixed bag, and I think that I may be back to the drawing board on a few things.

 

Here's the rest of the list for context:

Sang Priest (Warlord)
Captain - Magic Jump Pack; Thunder Hammer; Combi-Melta
Primaris Lt - Power Sword
Libby Dread - Meltagun
Mephiston
4x5 Intercessors
Terminator Ancient w/ FNP Banner
4x Sang Guard
5 Inceptors (Plasma)
3 Inceptors (Bolters)
Land Raider Prometheus

 

While I wasn't ecstatic about everything, I was quite happy with the way my 5 man unit of Plasma Inceptors performed.  The idea here is that these guys replace hard hitting melee units that have a hard time staying in auras and hog CPs when dropping in.  Because of 'Upon Wings of Fire', they can be deployed in positions that might otherwise be suboptimal for a unit, shoot, and then redeploy the next turn. (so as not to spend like a turn re-positioning or something) In the 2 games I played, they performed great.  The rest of the army is designed to clear as much chaff as possible, and was successful at clearing landing zones for the Inceptors.

 

Couple of anecdotes:

 

In 1 game, I actually used Descent of Angels on the unit after blowing away my target in the shooting phase (Contemptor Mortis Dread) in order to charge a unit of 5 Hellblasters.  Because of the 3d6 and a bit of luck, I was able to not only make the 9" charge but also do so in a way that allowed me to surround the Hellblasters so they had no lanes to fall back and my Inceptors thus couldn't be shot at since we were locked in combat.  This was all Turn 1.  It's fair to mention that he did make a slight deployment mistake that gave me the space to do this.  Turn 2, they simply flew out of combat and into cover to shoot again.  Turn 3, I used UWoF to move them back towards my battleline and dropped a Wisdom of the Ancients on the Libby Dread to replace the re-rolls lost since the Captain didn't come with them.

 

In Game 2, I dropped them down turn 2 with the Captain, managed to destroy a previously slightly damaged Wave Serpent, and used DoA + Red Rampage on the Captain (94% chance to make the charge with his magic jump pack) to charge the Wraithguard within.  They couldn't overwatch and he killed 4 of 5.  They were promptly obliterated by a unit of Dark Reapers (I ended up losing the game) but I thought it was a good example of what this unit can do in combination with the Captain.

 

 

TL;DR:

 

Inceptors are quickly becoming a favorite unit of mine.  Yes, they are a giant hammer but I also think that a level of finesse is required to make sure they aren't just a one shot and done unit.  As such, they really speak to my playstyle and frankly give me a very high degree of hope that Primaris Marines will be a formidable and interesting way to play BA going forward.  What do you guys think?

 

[Panzer]

Plasma Inceptors are certainly viable. However there's a really big risk to lose a model when supercharging which automatically means losing 2d3 plasma shots instead of just 1/2. You can mitigate that by having a Jump Pack Captain nearby but unfortunately that's no option for a full Primaris list (which you aren't playing anyway so it's an option for you).

The advantage of Plasma Inceptors over Hellblasters is that you can keep them in reserves to prevent them getting wiped out by a nasty alpha strike. The problem is that they aren't unlikely to kill themselves if you supercharge the Plasma

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I used a squad of five this weekend and they annilihated several unit. I kept them in buff range of my CM when I needed reroll 1s to super charge - they did some work. Highlight was liking an enemy captain on overwatch.

[Karhedron]

I agree that Plasma Inceptors look pretty good. Unlike Hellblasters, they don't need a Repulsor to get them into battle and protect them from alpha strikes. They need a Captain to reroll 1s but that is true of most plasma caddies and BAs have no trouble fielding a JP Captain to keep them company.

 

I am planning to run some and I am looking a JP Company Ancient and JP Sanguinary Novitiate/Priest (both from the Index) to accompany them. A 5+ FNP will make them harder to shift, even with 2D weapons like supercharged plasma coming back at them. If they die (either to enemy fire or their own overheats) then on a 4+ they get to make a bonus round of shooting before they expire. A Sanguinary Priest will only need to patch up a few wounds to make his points back with them.

[MeltaRange]

I agree that Plasma Inceptors look pretty good. Unlike Hellblasters, they don't need a Repulsor to get them into battle and protect them from alpha strikes. They need a Captain to reroll 1s but that is true of most plasma caddies and BAs have no trouble fielding a JP Captain to keep them company.

 

I am planning to run some and I am looking a JP Company Ancient and JP Sanguinary Novitiate/Priest (both from the Index) to accompany them. A 5+ FNP will make them harder to shift, even with 2D weapons like supercharged plasma coming back at them. If they die (either to enemy fire or their own overheats) then on a 4+ they get to make a bonus round of shooting before they expire. A Sanguinary Priest will only need to patch up a few wounds to make his points back with them.

 

Good point on the Sang Priest usage.  At 59 points, they are probably one of the best targets for being resurrected.  UWoF allows you to get a crippled unit back within range pretty easily.

Edited January 11, 2018 by MeltaRange

[Aothaine]

Be careful not to fall into the aura trap. We have a lot of good auras but they are expensive and when you take too many it will severly hamper the list.

[Panzer]

This goes double for melee auras since it's even harder to make them work. Often it's better to simply take more of the unit you wanted to buff instead of another buff unit.

[Explorer1]

I’ve been thinking more and more about Inceptors TBH, they just strike me as the ideal mobile fire support for a Jump Pack based BA army. As for Plasma v’s Bolter, I think it depends on the what you want them to do. I’m no maths guy, but as far as I can tell, if your target is T5 or less, Bolters are more effective point for point (i.e. comparing 4 bolter Inceptors to 3 plasma Inceptors). However, if your target is T6 or more, then Plasma is better (particularly overcharged). So I guess a mix of bolter units and plasma units is the way to go.

 

HOWEVER, if somebody with more than a (very) basic grasp of maths can prove me wrong I would be delighted!!

 

The list I’m toying with is

 

BA Battalion

Captain Jump Smash

Libby

Lemartes

 

15 DC (3 Hammers)

10 SG (swords)

 

3x5 Scouts

 

5 Bolter Inceptors

5 Bolter Inceptors

4 Plasma INceptors

 

Imperial Vanguard Detachment

 

Company Commander (Warlord with Khurov’s Aquila and Grand Strategist, for recycling CPs)

4 Inquisitorial Acolytes (so I have enough “boots on the ground” to keep all the Jump Pack troops in reserve)

 

The 2 units of Inceptors are on screen clearing duty before the plasma Inceptors, the DC and the SG come in a kill the important stuff.

 

sfPanzer - just seen your signature and it made me smile - I’m a native English speaker, but I’m married to a German, and have German in laws ..... I know exactly what you mean!! Personally, I suspect it’s the language. German is a very direct language. English is more nuanced. You can say something in German that sounds perfectly fine, but translated directly into English can appear very blunt, almost rude. So, be as “direct” as you like - I’m used to it!

[Karhedron]

Be careful not to fall into the aura trap. We have a lot of good auras but they are expensive and when you take too many it will severly hamper the list.

Solid advice. The advantage of buffing shooty units is that you do not run the risk of some units failing the charge and leaving the buffing unit behind.

 

A second thing you can do is to double-up on what your aura-bearers can do. If you are taking a JP Captain anyway, you can take Captain Smash so that when he is done buffing Inceptors, he can charge into something and wreck face. Similarly a Sanguinary Priest can buff a CC unit quite effectively if the Inceptors are not in need of medical attention.

 

A Captain, Priest and Ancient will set you back around 300 points so obviously if you are only using the buff your Inceptors, then you would be better off just taking more Inceptors. But each of those characters can do more than just buff the Inceptors and should be able to pull their weight during the battle on their own.

[Karhedron]

As for Plasma v’s Bolter, I think it depends on the what you want them to do. I’m no maths guy, but as far as I can tell, if your target is T5 or less, Bolters are more effective point for point (i.e. comparing 4 bolter Inceptors to 3 plasma Inceptors). However, if your target is T6 or more, then Plasma is better (particularly overcharged). So I guess a mix of bolter units and plasma units is the way to go.

 

HOWEVER, if somebody with more than a (very) basic grasp of maths can prove me wrong I would be delighted!!

You are on the right track but not all the way there. As well as toughness you also need to consider armour and wounds. Plasma also shines against multi-wound models, regardless of toughness (other Primaris Marines for example) or against models with a good save. For example, when shooting at MEQs, both Plasma and Bolter Inceptors wound on a 3+ (without overcharging) but the plasma guys will kill twice as many models thanks to the AP-4 completely negating 3+ saves wheras the targets will get a 4+ save vs bolter Inceptors.

 

4 Bolter Inceptors cost roughly the same as 3 Plasma Inceptors. Against MEQs the Bolter dudes will cause an average of 4 wounds. The plasma dudes will cause an average of 5.33 wounds. This means that the armour save of the target is more important than the toughness (at least for infantry models).

 

You are right though that in most cases, a mix of bolter and plasma Inceptors is probably a good idea. The proportion you take will depend on how much other anti-tank and anti-infantry firepower you have in the rest of your list. In you army, I notice a selection of Thunder Hammers so you will probably be OK with the Inceptor ratio you have published.

[Spagunk]

Sorry for the mini-hijack but after everyone's input here (and a few other places), I think plasma inceptors are definitely in my future. Hope the OP is able to decide themselves.

 

As an aside, since I have DI inceptors I was thinking of buying a single box and swapping the box bolter arms for the DI arms. That way I can put BA shoulders on them and won't have those bloody shield things on the front.

[superwill]

Yeah I've run about 15 games now with new BA, and plasma inceptors continue to be consistent performers. They'll almost always be a high priority for the opponent (the ratio of how easy they are to kill vs how much damage they do is almost unrivaled) and to be honest I wouldn't bother with things like 5+FNP or expecting a priest to revive one. Yeah I've done it a couple of times, but really they die incredibly easily and a 1/3 FNP will barely slow that down. If you're taking the banner for 4 or more units' benefit then that's probably not a bad investment.

 

As for the other discussion about melee auras, I agree it's good not to over-capitalize, but don't forget that you actually don't need to leave aura range just because you made your charge roll. Let's say you successfully charge 9" with 15 DC, 14 can move up so that they're within combat range of the enemy whilst one guy hangs back a few inches (maintaining coherency) and stays within 6" of your characters. Not everyone has to move into contact anymore, or move the full distance. So even if your characters fail their charges (which they probably will), doesn't mean you lose your auras. I always run max sized squads of DC and/or SG to make sure I can afford one the hang back if required.

[Explorer1]

 

As for Plasma v’s Bolter, I think it depends on the what you want them to do. I’m no maths guy, but as far as I can tell, if your target is T5 or less, Bolters are more effective point for point (i.e. comparing 4 bolter Inceptors to 3 plasma Inceptors). However, if your target is T6 or more, then Plasma is better (particularly overcharged). So I guess a mix of bolter units and plasma units is the way to go.HOWEVER, if somebody with more than a (very) basic grasp of maths can prove me wrong I would be delighted!!

You are on the right track but not all the way there. As well as toughness you also need to consider armour and wounds. Plasma also shines against multi-wound models, regardless of toughness (other Primaris Marines for example) or against models with a good save. For example, when shooting at MEQs, both Plasma and Bolter Inceptors wound on a 3+ (without overcharging) but the plasma guys will kill twice as many models thanks to the AP-4 completely negating 3+ saves wheras the targets will get a 4+ save vs bolter Inceptors.4 Bolter Inceptors cost roughly the same as 3 Plasma Inceptors. Against MEQs the Bolter dudes will cause an average of 4 wounds. The plasma dudes will cause an average of 5.33 wounds. This means that the armour save of the target is more important than the toughness (at least for infantry models).You are right though that in most cases, a mix of bolter and plasma Inceptors is probably a good idea. The proportion you take will depend on how much other anti-tank and anti-infantry firepower you have in the rest of your list. In you army, I notice a selection of Thunder Hammers so you will probably be OK with the Inceptor ratio you have published.

Is that right? Four Bolter guys will cause way more than 4 wounds wont they? 4 guys gets 24 shots, hittting 18 times and doing 12 wounds, or is my maths way worse than I thought? That would translate into 6 dead marines. Whihc is probably better than the 3 plasma guys (assuming an average of 12 shots).

[Panzer]

 

 

As for Plasma v’s Bolter, I think it depends on the what you want them to do. I’m no maths guy, but as far as I can tell, if your target is T5 or less, Bolters are more effective point for point (i.e. comparing 4 bolter Inceptors to 3 plasma Inceptors). However, if your target is T6 or more, then Plasma is better (particularly overcharged). So I guess a mix of bolter units and plasma units is the way to go.HOWEVER, if somebody with more than a (very) basic grasp of maths can prove me wrong I would be delighted!!

You are on the right track but not all the way there. As well as toughness you also need to consider armour and wounds. Plasma also shines against multi-wound models, regardless of toughness (other Primaris Marines for example) or against models with a good save. For example, when shooting at MEQs, both Plasma and Bolter Inceptors wound on a 3+ (without overcharging) but the plasma guys will kill twice as many models thanks to the AP-4 completely negating 3+ saves wheras the targets will get a 4+ save vs bolter Inceptors.4 Bolter Inceptors cost roughly the same as 3 Plasma Inceptors. Against MEQs the Bolter dudes will cause an average of 4 wounds. The plasma dudes will cause an average of 5.33 wounds. This means that the armour save of the target is more important than the toughness (at least for infantry models).You are right though that in most cases, a mix of bolter and plasma Inceptors is probably a good idea. The proportion you take will depend on how much other anti-tank and anti-infantry firepower you have in the rest of your list. In you army, I notice a selection of Thunder Hammers so you will probably be OK with the Inceptor ratio you have published.

Is that right? Four Bolter guys will cause way more than 4 wounds wont they? 4 guys gets 24 shots, hittting 18 times and doing 12 wounds, or is my maths way worse than I thought? That would translate into 6 dead marines. Whihc is probably better than the 3 plasma guys (assuming an average of 12 shots).

 

No, you're right. 4 Bolter Inceptors cause on average 6 unsaved wounds against MEQs, not 4.

[Paladin777]

The bolters do 5.33 wounds. 2/3 of 24 shots is 16 hits, 2/3 of 16 hits is 10.66, half of those saved = 5.33 unsaved wounds.

 

Overcharged plasma does 4.44 unsaved wounds. Calculations to be edited in on a few minutes.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Paladin777

[Explorer1]

The bolters do 5.33 wounds. 2/3 of 24 shots is 16 hits, 2/3 of 16 hits is 10.66, half of those saved = 5.33 unsaved wounds.

Overcharged plasma does 4.44 unsaved wounds. Calculations to be edited in on a few minutes.

You are of course right - in answer to my rhetorical question “yes” my maths is worse than I thought!!

 

But that is interesting isn’t it - the Bolter version is better than the plasma version versus MEQ.

[Paladin777]

Note that I meant failed saves, not unsaved wounds. Against any 2+W models overcharged plasma wins out doing 8.8...

[MeltaRange]

Yeah I've run about 15 games now with new BA, and plasma inceptors continue to be consistent performers. They'll almost always be a high priority for the opponent (the ratio of how easy they are to kill vs how much damage they do is almost unrivaled) and to be honest I wouldn't bother with things like 5+FNP or expecting a priest to revive one. Yeah I've done it a couple of times, but really they die incredibly easily and a 1/3 FNP will barely slow that down. If you're taking the banner for 4 or more units' benefit then that's probably not a bad investment.

 

I agree.  I guess my overall point of the thread really is that I've been having a lot of success keeping them alive by good positioning - either by their true position on the table (out of LOS/range for return fire, or at least in Cover) , by utilizing the DoA stratagem to get them into combat after shooting so they aren't shot back, or by supporting them with a melee character you probably would have taken anyway but synergizes extremely well.

 

The nearly unlimited positioning choices are mostly due to UWoF, which to me is truly one of the gems of the entire book.

[Karhedron]

No, you're right. 4 Bolter Inceptors cause on average 6 unsaved wounds against MEQs, not 4.

D'oh! Your completely right, sorry for the total brain-fail. That'll teach me to post when I'm tired. 

 

But that is interesting isn’t it - the Bolter version is better than the plasma version versus MEQ.

 

Note that I meant failed saves, not unsaved wounds. Against any 2+W models overcharged plasma wins out doing 8.8...

I think that is probably a good sign. If plasma was just straight-up better than bolters for the points, no one would really bother with the bolter versions. As it is, Bolter Inceptors are the go-to choice for single-wound infantry. Plasma only beat them for multi-wound models and then only if you are willing to run the risk of overcharging.

[Panzer]

 

No, you're right. 4 Bolter Inceptors cause on average 6 unsaved wounds against MEQs, not 4.

D'oh! Your completely right, sorry for the total brain-fail. That'll teach me to post when I'm tired. 

 

 

Likewise since it indeed is "only" 5.33 unsaved wounds, not 6. :P