General Discussion: Cult Marines in Mixed Legions

[Black13]

With the release of the Chaos codex I've come to a very quick and possibly unwarranted conclusion.  I really, really dislike the idea of cult troops being used in legions not their own.   Don't get me wrong, I love the new power Chaos finally has thanks to a solid Codex.. I just really can't come to terms with Alpha Legion Berserkers, World Eater Sonic Marines, etc. 

 

Maybe I'm too much a legion purist, but I just can't envision a son of Angron sneaking around with an Alpha Legion army, let alone also benefiting from Alpha Legion tactics.  I get that chaos is a mismatch of various warbands/cults/individuals, but I can only see that really working with Black Legion.  That's entirely what made Black Legion unique to me.  

 

Competitive/rules reasons aside, am I the only one that feels this way?  Maybe someone could help me see in a different light.    

 

 

 

 

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

You can't take Noise Marines in a World Eater detachment and you can't take Berzerkers in an Emperor's Children detachment so that isn't really an issue...as for other cult units, there's plenty of examples in the fluff of cult marines operating in the undivided legions who aren't former members of one of the cult legions. Your Alpha Legion berzerkers probably aren't sons of Angron at all, but Khorne-leaning Alpha Legionnaires, so naturally they still like to fight from ambushes and the like...of course it all depends on how you want your warband's fluff to go, so you can really have it either way.

[MyD4rkPassenger]

While Noise marines in a WE list as you've stated is just a butchering of the fluff, having a AL berserker is not all out of the question. I would bring up a counterpoint, not all berserkers are World Eaters.  For example in ADB's Night Lords trilogy, one of the main supporting characters is a berserker yet he is completely Nostroman born like all the rest.  He has simply fallen into devoting everything to khorne, if I remember correctly even screaming blood and skulls in a dreadclaw with his squad.  

 

As for models, I used to run plague marines in my NL list by simply having the sergeant be an apothecary, and their armor being of a thicker design.  For my berserkers I painted their gauntlets red, as all who are sentenced to death in the legion do.  They were marines who no longer cared as their life was forfeit anyway.  

 

Honestly, the only cult unit I see that is fairly rigid in their association are the TS.  They will always be TS, just working with a different group.  

[Lord Abaia]

Funny thing. I run Night Lords and I just resolved to build and paint one unit of each cult troop for my army. These are likely going to be the only updated kits we get for the next few years, so I'm not going to sit around and hold my breath waiting for generic undivided kits that aren't coming. Also I play Chaos Space Marines, not Poorly Equipped Renegade Marines with Scruples, so I'm not opposed to including any units for being too corrupted.

 

My Chaos Lord is called the Magpie Lord for a reason. He seeks out and rescues (read: abducts) legionaires who have been rejected, abandoned, or left for dead by their former warbands.

 

My Berzerkers were lobotomized as punishment for a failed takeover, and sentenced to death by the front lines.

 

My Plague Marines will be former Destroyers who got too nasty after practicing their preferred methods of warfare in the Eye for too long, and were abandoned on a space hulk by their previous, more puritanical warband.

 

My Noise Marines are just Terror Squads turned up to 11 who blast their foes with the recorded screams of civilians they captured and tortured before the battle.

 

For Rubrics I will say that one of my Sorcerers mentally highjacked a group that he found guarding some ruins in the Eye. The Rubrics resist the control of another Legion's sorcerer and so it takes his full concentration to control them in battle, and that's why he can only cast baby smite.

 

I've already made my unit of Berzerkers from Raptors and FW Nostraman Chainglaives. I'll probably pick up a box of Plague Marines and Rubrics next, and I'll wait for plastic Noise Marines to come out before I worry about them.

[totgeboren]

I think Cults in the "unmarked" legions can work rather well. There are of course the count-as solution, Berzerkers being modeled without the bunny ears and instead being "Khornate Assault Veterans", IW Noise Marines can be modeled as having experimental weapons and so on.

The second solution is to say that those AL Berzerkers really are WE originally, they have just been allied/hired/stuck together with the AL for long enough that they work rather well as a team. They could even have adopted the colours of their new warband.

They could even be unwilling allies. Both the Berzerkers and the Al could be sworn to Abbadon, and he could have ordered the Berzerkers to submit to the orders of the AL Lord no matter what.

 

The last is the most simple one, which I dislike myself unless it's the BL. That the Al Berzerkers are Al marines that have sworn themselves to Khorne and somehow gotten the Nails implanted. That's a bit lame I agree.

[Lord Abaia]

For AL Berzerkers I like the idea of AL Marines who have been subjected to additional hypnotic conditioning and have hypnotically implanted trigger words. Before the battle they are normal AL Marines, capable of stealth and patience. At the start of the battle, their commander voxes the trigger word and they lose their minds. Adrenaline surges out of control, inhibitions are suppressed, and they are capable only of focusing on murdering their target.

[battle captain corpus]

I think your also confusing trademark Legions that devoted themselves to specific gods and chaos marines that simple choose to.

 

You can have Khorne berzerkers in any army, they are just usually seen as World Eaters so much so that people often forget that.

 

A prime example would be Tzeentch sorcerors. They are quite common I find but not always Thousand Sons ones.

 

BCC

[Khornestar]

Well, everyone’s free to see and represent fluff their own way, or break it entirely. If you want to keep your Alphas cult free, that’s your prerogative. By the same token, I see no problem mixing them in, either. As the frater above mentioned, there are various ways to represent that. You could also pretend it’s just some temporary alliance/presence in the warband to overcome the enemy, and then they go their separate ways or turn on each other. Whatever. IMO, there is nothing to be gained by adhering too rigidly to the “rules” of the background, because they probably aren’t really there to begin with.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I make a distinction between Berserkers and World Eaters, Plague Marines and Death Guard, Noise Marines and Emperor's Children. The only cult unit that is logically legion specific is Rubric Marines. But in regard to the first three, it seems unlikely that the pervasive and and intense temptation of the Ruinous Powers would not spontaneously replicate similar results throughout fallen space marines everywhere throughout post-Heresy history. As far as that happening in a non-cult legion, each legion had a similar TO&E pre-Heresy. Each will have had units counter to their overall theme, and it's logical that they will have pursued their particular specialties following the breakdown in central authority following the Scouring.

[Panzer]

Not even Rubrics are Legion specific since the Rubric ritual does at times get spread to other sorcerers just like the knowledge of how to implant the butchers nails.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I believe the Iron Warriors even had their own Berserkers, way back, from those Iron Warriors who were the breachers, now fallen to Khorne. Basically though, the important thing to remember is that essentially "all World Eaters are Berserkers, but not all Berserkers are World Eaters". The other thing to remember is that the Legions have had 10,000 years within the Eye of Terror to adapt, change, fall, and develop. Maybe those nihilistic Iron Warriors lost themselves in self-hatred and had Nurgle turn his eye upon them, and now they're Plague Marines. Maybe those Word Bearers believed that the Gods other than Slaanesh have turned from them, that a string of losses were due to Khorne cursing them, Tzeentch betraying them, and Nurgle tainting their supplies. Only Slaanesh has shown them favour, so Slaanesh is to whom they will devote themselves. Now they scream the praises of the Youngest God at their foes, as Noise Marines.

 

I actually like the idea of a unit of Alpha Legion Berserkers, the Last Resort, that's kept chained up within a drop pod, saved for when all subtlety is lost, that have willingly given themselves over to Khorne, and undergone the surgeries, all for the good of The Mission.

[Trevak Dal]

I thought that kson sorcerers would hire themselves out as mercenaries/lore seeking missionaries and that's why you can have Ksons in non Ksons armies?

[Panzer]

That as well. TSons used to be very splintered with each Sorcerer doing his own thing.

[Dragonlover]

Personally I'm not putting cult troops anywhere but in their respective Legions, but I'm doing every Legion so it's more to stop the risk of every army coming out kinda the same.

 

If I just had a 'Chaos collection' from which I drew my armies, I'd absolutely chuck in Alpha Legion Noise Marines and the like if I wanted to.

 

Dragonlover

[XenoMechanicum]

Personally I'm not putting cult troops anywhere but in their respective Legions, but I'm doing every Legion so it's more to stop the risk of every army coming out kinda the same.

If I just had a 'Chaos collection' from which I drew my armies, I'd absolutely chuck in Alpha Legion Noise Marines and the like if I wanted to.

Dragonlover

Same here! I don't have much of a Chaos army at the moment (just some mostly painted Berserkers and a Defiler in WE colors I bought from Craigslist) but I'd rather just field a Battallion of WE Berserkers, another of TS Rubrics and Sorcerers, then some Plague Marines, and make them an allied band instead of all the same legion. But as was mentioned previously it's all a personal preference! As long as you're happy with the results that's all that matters, like he good advice I got on some suitable models to stand in as a Dreadnought Captain for my entirely Dreadnought Company.

[Panzer]

 

Personally I'm not putting cult troops anywhere but in their respective Legions, but I'm doing every Legion so it's more to stop the risk of every army coming out kinda the same.

If I just had a 'Chaos collection' from which I drew my armies, I'd absolutely chuck in Alpha Legion Noise Marines and the like if I wanted to.

Dragonlover

Same here! I don't have much of a Chaos army at the moment (just some mostly painted Berserkers and a Defiler in WE colors I bought from Craigslist) but I'd rather just field a Battallion of WE Berserkers, another of TS Rubrics and Sorcerers, then some Plague Marines, and make them an allied band instead of all the same legion. But as was mentioned previously it's all a personal preference! As long as you're happy with the results that's all that matters, like he good advice I got on some suitable models to stand in as a Dreadnought Captain for my entirely Dreadnought Company.

 

That's not what he said tho. He said he would put them all in the same Legion if he didn't already have such a big collection. He's actively restricting himself so his collection of multiple Legions doesn't end up with the same kind of lists.

[XenoMechanicum]

That does make sense and I understand lol I was just saying I agree with his current approach, since I like he visual effect of multiple clashing colors of different legions as opposed to all being a singular army (which is what I have my Loyalists for and even they have multiple paint schemes depending on the type of model lol), sorry for not being clearer there.

[Closet Skeleton]

I thought that kson sorcerers would hire themselves out as mercenaries/lore seeking missionaries and that's why you can have Ksons in non Ksons armies?

 

They would be allies now, back in 3rd ed they would not.

 

8th ed rules aren't good for mixing individual units of various legion backgrounds, though you can get away with auxiliary support detachments.

[Dragonlover]

That does make sense and I understand lol I was just saying I agree with his current approach, since I like he visual effect of multiple clashing colors of different legions as opposed to all being a singular army (which is what I have my Loyalists for and even they have multiple paint schemes depending on the type of model lol), sorry for not being clearer there.

I apologise for the off topic, but I must clarify: I'm making nine separate armies, one for each Legion. No colour clashing involved for both mechanical and aesthetic reasons.

 

If this hadn't been the plan for twenty years, I'd have picked a cool colour scheme and then run them as whatever legion trait I fancied with whatever units I fancied for any given game.

 

Dragonlover

[XenoMechanicum]

Yes! I understand and that's what I meant in the first place even if my intent got lost somewhere along the way; I may lack the funds and inclination to attempt a full army for each Legion, but I hope to one day field detachments of each different army; Ahriman and Magnus marching up the field with Scarab Occult Terminators and Rubric Marines; a Lord of Skulls with accompanying Warpsmiths flanked by World Eater Berserkers; Mortarion and his Plague Marines slogging through the enemy fire, soaking it as they're so good at.

 

I only meant clashing in the sense of each army visibly being their own, independent force, since Chaos is hardly about uniformity - sorry for the further off topic post.

[McElMcNinja]

I would think a chaos lord of (insert faction here) who landed on a planet and there were cultist of (insert different faction here), that the lord would have no problem absorbing the cultist into his force. Using the old saying of enemies of my enemy... Not only would he bolstering his own forces but he could just treat them as cannon fodder to protect his more valuable troops or even try to convert them over.

[Panzer]

I would think a chaos lord of (insert faction here) who landed on a planet and there were cultist of (insert different faction here), that the lord would have no problem absorbing the cultist into his force. Using the old saying of enemies of my enemy... Not only would he bolstering his own forces but he could just treat them as cannon fodder to protect his more valuable troops or even try to convert them over.

The topic is about Cult units (Noise Marines, Berzerker, etc.), not Cultists. ;)

[McElMcNinja]

My bad, but wouldn't the same apply to cult units?

[Lord_Caerolion]

The Cult units usually have some sort of physical modification that would prove very difficult to come back from (Rubric, Butchers Nails, etc), not to mention the possibility of Spawndom. The Gods don't particularly like being abandoned by their Champions. God-marked units might have a chance, although probably still run the risk, but once you've started attaining status in the eyes of the Gods, you don't look back. That way lies madness at best.

 

They could certainly fight under the same banner, although depending on the configurations of what God each party worships there may be some inherent rivalry/conflicts, but basically, once a God starts paying attention to you, you do not want to make them angry.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Lord_Caerolion

[ChazSexington]

I don't like it unless there's a fluffy explanation for it. I get it if your army is based on a Warband, such as a bunch of Alpha Legionnaires and World Eaters banding together and donning the colours of the Alpha Legion, but then rules-wise I think they should be a soup detachment instead. Essentially, I don't think you should get Legion rules if your Detachment is made up of a mix of Legions. I don't have an issue with the Black Legion or Red Corsairs having a mix - they're Warbands, not Legions. 

 

My exception here is Plague Marines, which are really just CSMs with MoN taken up a notch.

 

Sure, you can supposedly make new Rubrics, Khorne Berzerkers, and Noise Marines, with a scaled down Rubric of Ahriman, implanting SMs with the Butcher's Nails, or Fabius Bile performing some DIY surgery. I haven't seen any examples of this in the fluff though, though there might be.  

Edited January 12, 2018 by ChazSexington