K3nn3rs Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 I’ve seen some chat that claims with the release of the new HH rules that the limitations which prevented combining the alternative FoC and RoWs have now gone. Thoughts? I can see how it could be used to create themed armies but equally I imagine there are ways it could be quickly abused... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
LtDan Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Be nice for my deathguard to use onslaught and the reaping lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/#findComment-4977863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Thought: now that Onslaught armies are going to be a tad but more prevalent due to Heavy Support having so many enticing options, what occurs in the event of two Onslaught armies going against one another with regards to “can never go first unless they seize” I wonder? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/#findComment-4977885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LtDan Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Roll off I guess Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/#findComment-4977952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Roll off I guess Most likely; the rules interaction, to me at least, would be a form of double negative where they just end up negating each other. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/#findComment-4977974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LtDan Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Yeah exactly hense roll to see who goes first. The restrictions should stay I think.tho as alternate foc still only with opponents permission. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/#findComment-4977986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LtDan Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Tho would be nice I this was the case as id actually be able to fit all 6k of my deathguard in 1 foc Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/#findComment-4977998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 They're not even with opponents consent now are they? They're just free to use? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/#findComment-4978237 Share on other sites More sharing options...
K3nn3rs Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 That’s my understanding Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/#findComment-4978670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Yeah I have the rulebook, all it says now is both players choose one of the Force Organisational charts listed. 'Crusade' is the basic one (same as AoD), the others are listed as Optional. In reality, you're gonna know in advance whether or not your opponent has one of the alternative Force Orgs. Either because the event will specify which are allowed (most disallow anything except Crusade, because its too hard to balance the others). Or you've organised a game and know what you are playing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/#findComment-4984211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Legionnaire Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Okay, could someone point out to me the page number and text passage where it says RoWs and alternate Force Orgs are compatible now ? I've read the book twice but can't really find an entry that claims they are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/#findComment-4985509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhar'Neth Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) There is no such provision, because you cannot combine Legiones Astartes RoWs and alternative force organisation charts as written in Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Army List pg. 10 (enchanced edition). In my humble opinion the army list book (specific rules) overwrites general rulebook (generic rules). Edited January 17, 2018 by Dhar'Neth Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/#findComment-4985730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Legionnaire Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 That's precisely what I was thinking ... and therefore such a paragraph was nowhere to be found. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/#findComment-4985889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
K3nn3rs Posted January 17, 2018 Author Share Posted January 17, 2018 The Legion Astartes - Age of Darkness army book (pg 10) has a paragraph that states that the 3 alternative and optional FoC requires your opponents permission. In the same paragraph it states these are not to be combined with Legion RoW. My understanding is that no such paragraph exists in the new HH rule book when providing the rules for the alternative FoC. Does this mean: 1) you no longer need permission (rule book takes precedent) 2) you no longer need permission and can combine with RoW (rule book takes precedent) 3) you need permission and can’t combine with a RoW (AoD takes precedence)? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/#findComment-4986026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 So in this case, I believe that the rulebook trumps. Normally I'd be inclined to say that the Army List does, but seeing as the rulebook is a much newer rule set and pretty much rewrites that entire section (which in itself was altered a lot for the Army List book!) it would be logical to use that one, being the most recent and intended full update to the rules. infyrana 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/#findComment-4986373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Oh lawd Onslaught and Ironwing would be a game changer! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/#findComment-4986510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhar'Neth Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 I’m pretty sure Legiones Astartes army list takes precedence over rulebook (at least until this will be FAQed). On a side note, if they intended otherwise they'd update ibook version of the legiones army list with updated rule if this was intended to be changed. Remember that there are also other non-marine armies in the game that don't have such restriction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/#findComment-4986925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
K3nn3rs Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 Have they ever updated the e-version/ iBook HH red books? I’m not sure they have so I don’t think that’s an indication of intent. You could argue that the fact they’ve not just copied and pasted the paragraph from the AoD red book into the new HH Rule book but have re-written it shows that the intent is to allow both the use of alternative FoC and not restrict the use of RoW with them... Army books taking precedent over rule books is, IMO, because in the past Army books came out after the rule book. We’re in the position that the rule book is out after the army books. I only have a legion army. If you’re saying non- Legion armies don’t have this restriction then surely that’s also an indication of intent to allow the use of the alt FoC and allow RoW with them? I’m unemotional about the decision either way. I can see it breathing some life into some of the more restrictive RoW but equally it could be abused. I’m just interested to see what people think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/#findComment-4986946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhar'Neth Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) Have they ever updated the e-version/ iBook HH red books? I’m not sure they have so I don’t think that’s an indication of intent. They have updated enhanced edition quite recently correcting many mistakes and adding missing options (such as adding dedicated transport options for terminators). Army books taking precedent over rule books is, IMO, because in the past Army books came out after the rule book. We’re in the position that the rule book is out after the army books. The new rulebook states that other publications, such as army books take precedence over rulebook if they contradict it (page 20 last sentence in frame) I only have a legion army. If you’re saying non- Legion armies don’t have this restriction then surely that’s also an indication of intent to allow the use of the alt FoC and allow RoW with them? I mean that RoWs are unique for Legiones Astartes and that means there is no reason to mention them in the main rulebook. Other armies don't have RoWs so this could confuse some players (I know this is unlikely, yet still possible). Edited January 18, 2018 by Dhar'Neth Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/#findComment-4987036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
K3nn3rs Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 Good points Dhar’Neth - thanks! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/#findComment-4987123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 Yeah the new rulebook does have the distinction in a pop-out box, that army books always trump the main rulebook in regards to conflicts. So if the Legion red book says you can't take anything except Crusade (what they're calling AoD now) without opponents permission, and ROW don't work with anything except Crusade, then that's that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343154-row-alternative-foc/#findComment-4989840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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