Thoughts on loadout

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

So I picked up the starter box, a corvus and a watch master (with possibly picking up another blackstar and a vanguard squad in the near future).

 

here is what I have:

Watch Master

Watch Captain Artemis

Corvus, hurricane bolters, infernum, blackstar rockets, twin assault canons.

squad 1: Sergeant with xenophase blade+ storm shield, heavy thunder hammer, 2 combi-melta's + 2 power swords, power sword +storm shield.

squad 2: Sergeant with xenophase blade+ storm shield, 2 frag cannons, 2 inferno heavy bolters.

Venerable Dread: Twin lascannon, dread weapon+heavy flamer.

 

Pretty much load everyone into the corvus and get it across the field and unload everyone. Fire off weapons and then have squad 1 assault while squad 2 and the corvus lays down the fire.

 

I am thinking of going with another corvus and another 2 squads in the same kind of loadout with maybe another another watch master or run a squad of vanguard vets and maybe a captain with jet pack for that squad.

[Guest]

For your vets, I would try to focus on bolters. SIA is the reason for the vets high points cost, so I would focus on getting to use it.  For my Deathwatch, Bolters, Stalker pattern bolters, Storm shields, and Frag canons are where I tend to focus my points.  

 

General consensus on the Infernus heavy bolters is that they are overcosted and hurt by being heavy weapons.

 

It also would be worth while to focus your squads on one specific role. Swiss army knife squads are less effective. If your kill teams get into combat, you're in trouble and will most likely die, regardless of whether you have power weapons an xenophase blades, so you can skip those unless you want to put together one dedicated close range squad. 

 

 I like the corvus load out, I also went all dakka with the load out. I would also definitely get a second corvus. If someone wants one dead, it will die, having two makes it a little harder for your opponents. 

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

For your vets, I would try to focus on bolters. SIA is the reason for the vets high points cost, so I would focus on getting to use it.  For my Deathwatch, Bolters, Stalker pattern bolters, Storm shields, and Frag canons are where I tend to focus my points.  

 

General consensus on the Infernus heavy bolters is that they are overcosted and hurt by being heavy weapons.

 

It also would be worth while to focus your squads on one specific role. Swiss army knife squads are less effective. If your kill teams get into combat, you're in trouble and will most likely die, regardless of whether you have power weapons an xenophase blades, so you can skip those unless you want to put together one dedicated close range squad. 

 

 I like the corvus load out, I also went all dakka with the load out. I would also definitely get a second corvus. If someone wants one dead, it will die, having two makes it a little harder for your opponents. 

 

Yeah, squad 1 is more melee focused to either shut down some shooting (buy unloading melta's and bolters first and then charging in with swords and shields, thats why I have 1 XPB, 1HTH, 3 PS and 2 storm shields) or eat up some wounds/drones/etc before jumping into melee.

Squad 2 is my ballistic squad, meant to chew through hordes or wipe out troublesome units (or soften them up) so that my melee squad can finish them up. I have some more frag cannons on order from bit sellers on ebay (man they need to come out with dedicate troop kits to buy heavy weapons instead of having to buy the sprues/bits to make them).

 

So this is what my thinking is for a solid deathwatch group.

2 Corvus with all the dakka in my current loadouts (hurricane, twin assault, blackstar, infernum)

2 melee squads kitted out like Squad 1 (2 storm shields allows for a little cushion when crashing into melee)

2 ranged units (preferably 4 frag cannons each, but infernus heavy bolters for now, which arent bad if they have to overwatched since they auto hit), not to mention the heavy bolters can use the specialty ammo.

Captain Artemis with the melee teams so that way he gives them Rites of Battle and can soak overwatch before my melee squads charge.

1 watch master to sit with the range units and give them Rites of Battle.

 

Maybe 2 razorbacks with twin assault cannons, put the 2 range squads in them with a watch master. Move them into position and disembark and unload in the shooting phase.

Put the 2 melee squads with Artemis in the 2 corvus and deploy in the back line after doing a strafing run and have my melee squads charge out in turn 2.

Let the razorbacks and corvus shoot and try to soak up wounds while my squads do their work.

 

The only downside to this is that I dont have many units to hold objectives if an objective mission gets rolled. with only 4 5-man squads, 2 HQ and 2 transports to hold objectives.

If its annihilation there shouldn't be an issue since thats what kill teams are for.

 

The only other thing I can really thing of to add to this would be a vanguard squad. Putting the 2 5-man melee teams and Artemis in 1 corvus, and putting the vanguard with jump packs in the second corvus.

[TrawlingCleaner]

I'm not sure heavy bolters can use the SIA?

"When this unit fires a bolt pistol, boltgun, twin boltgun, stalker pattern boltgun or a guardian spear, you can choose for it to fire special issue ammunition"

Unless they FAQ'ed it and I'm missing something?

I agree with the others, the heavy bolters do seem very meh considering they're heavy rather than assault like the frag cannon. I haven't actually used them so I could be wrong

[Vel'Cona]

No, HB cannot use SIA.  That includes the HB on an Infernus Boltgun.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

No, HB cannot use SIA.  That includes the HB on an Infernus Boltgun.

Your right, thought it included heavy bolters considering the stupid price for infernus boltgun. And doublechecking the FAQ (because it doesnt make sense that heavy bolters cant use SIA) that also means that Primaris cant use SIA either since its not listed in the index, CA or FAQ. I am at work and cant look at at my CA or II1 right now, but if thats the case that nearly makes SIA really only useable in a couple systems and damn near doesnt even warrant the price inflation on a lot of stuff in the DW section. looks like I am going to be replacing a couple arms/guns on my DW.

[Mobius0288]

So I picked up the starter box, a corvus and a watch master (with possibly picking up another blackstar and a vanguard squad in the near future).

 

here is what I have:

Watch Master

Watch Captain Artemis

Corvus, hurricane bolters, infernum, blackstar rockets, twin assault canons.

squad 1: Sergeant with xenophase blade+ storm shield, heavy thunder hammer, 2 combi-melta's + 2 power swords, power sword +storm shield.

squad 2: Sergeant with xenophase blade+ storm shield, 2 frag cannons, 2 inferno heavy bolters.

Venerable Dread: Twin lascannon, dread weapon+heavy flamer.

 

Pretty much load everyone into the corvus and get it across the field and unload everyone. Fire off weapons and then have squad 1 assault while squad 2 and the corvus lays down the fire.

 

I am thinking of going with another corvus and another 2 squads in the same kind of loadout with maybe another another watch master or run a squad of vanguard vets and maybe a captain with jet pack for that squad.

 

You have a pretty assaulty type of army, I bet some reviers would benefit you a bit - deep striking behind enemy lines half way through the game. Or maybe a stalker team/ Intercessor unit to sit with your dreadnaught.

 

I personally like to use Vanguard Vets for melee stuff over my kill teams but just beware they take up more space in the blackstar. You could deep strike them but they tend to become THE target as soon as they drop. That's a whole another discussion but something you could look into. They could double as kill team members when you tweak your lists too.

 

 

No, HB cannot use SIA.  That includes the HB on an Infernus Boltgun.

Your right, thought it included heavy bolters considering the stupid price for infernus boltgun. And doublechecking the FAQ (because it doesnt make sense that heavy bolters cant use SIA) that also means that Primaris cant use SIA either since its not listed in the index, CA or FAQ. 

 

It's actually always been like that because SIA is a deathwatch special ability on the datasheets. It's currently only on the watchmaster, Capt Artemis, Kill Teams, Bikers and Vanguard Veterans. Hopefully the new codex would let Primaris stuff take it.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

Update to my DW army, bought another start collecting pack and a bunch of my bits orders have come in.

 

Watch Master (130)

Watch Captain Artemis (130)

Watch Captain (119) (heavily modified artemis, gave him a jump pack, xenophase blade, combi-melta, he actually looks pretty awesome)

Squad 1: Sergeant with xenophase blade+ storm shield, heavy thunder hammer, 2 combi-melta's + 2 power swords, power sword +storm shield. (192)

Squad 2: Sergeant with xenophase blade+ storm shield, 4 deathwatch frag cannons. (227)

Squad 3: Sergeant with xenophase blade+ storm shield, 4 deathwatch frag cannons. (227)

Squad 4: Sergeant with Stalker Bolter + powersword, 4 stalker bolters, 4 infernus heavy bolters. (295)

Venerable Dread: Twin lascannon, dread weapon+heavy flamer. (can switch out to assault cannon or heavy plasma cannon) (197)

Venerable Dread: Twin lascannon, dread weapon+heavy flamer. (can switch out to assault cannon or heavy plasma cannon) (197)

Corvus, hurricane bolters, infernum, blackstar rockets, twin assault canons. (249)

I have a second Corvus on order that I plan on building just like the first. (249)

 

So that currently puts me at 106 power, about 2212 points

I could take out the 2  Ven. Dreads and that leaves me at 1818. I could put in a rhino with SB and HKM (1896 points), put in 2 more frag cannons into the melee squad (cant put anything elsewhere) and that gets me to 1994 points.

 

I dont know if I like taking out the two dreads for a rhino and 2 more frag cannons. it takes out a lot of long range anti-armor, but at 197 a pop each and only 8 wounds the Corvus is a much better deal. 14 wounds, transport and flying and a serious amount of fire power for 249 points. I think I will have to go that route since the dreads are a bit overpriced for what they can do and they dont even have an invul save.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Saxxon the Dragoon

[Moostick]

You're doing something we all did at the beginning. Too many toys in each unit and believing each unit will do more or survive longer than they actually will on the table.

 

Playing a few games will the best way to see what works where and what is a waste of points, so proxy your army and test it out.

[Mobius0288]

A Blackstar tactical thought for you... I setup my stalker kill team (3 stalker/2 missiles) next to my watchmaster, sometimes with a ven dread and/or lascannon razorback. You could also set up a blackstar next to them as well and just hover first turn. Knowing that, you could equip a blackstar with lascannons and stormstrike missiles... giving you some good long range capability turn 1 before you send them down range.

 

Definitely with Moostick, you've quite a bit of toys in your list. A good rule of thumb I recommend for DW people, at least when starting out, is no more than 3 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons per squad. The exception would be if you built a squad with a purpose (4 frag cannons in a squad in a blackstar, a VV unit with hammers, etc.)

 

For your ven dread situation, you could replace one with a lascannon razor back to get some points back.

 

I honestly don't see a need to have 2 squads with 4 frag cannons. One squad is going to wipe out whatever you put in front of them. Once they're gone, what do you target next? Will you be in range to use the frag profile? And after you shoot 8D6 auto-hits into a unit, I promise you all of your opponent's fire will be put into those frag units. They will not last past the turn they disembark.

 

For anti-armor considerations, most people will agree the lascannon is king. If you don't have lascannons, you can still consider meltas and plasma. A squad with some combi-plasma (or hellblasters) is potent against most infantry squads and can still pepper the vehicles... More of a anti-armor support weapon. The meltas are great if you plan to disembark a squad next to something big, and the weapons are cheaper then frag cannons.

 

Try to design your squads with purpose (kind of like in 7th?), more than just melee or shooty squads. What is this shooty squad going to shoot? Infantry? Bolters, shields, 2 frags and a power sword will do the job. Want a shooty support unit? A stalker team with 3 stalkers and 2 missiles can both shred infantry at 36" and smack vehicles at 48".

 

Just some things to think about man.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

You're doing something we all did at the beginning. Too many toys in each unit and believing each unit will do more or survive longer than they actually will on the table.

 

Playing a few games will the best way to see what works where and what is a waste of points, so proxy your army and test it out.

Well options are pretty limited as to how you can buy deathwatch. you either have to get the start collecting boxes, buy squads 5 men at a time (with only 1 frag cannon and infernus in the box), terminators or kill team cassius, and thats about it. its cheaper in the long run to buy the starter boxes and then bits order the special weapons. That and the blackstar is the absolute best vehicle the deathwatch have, you pretty much have to have 1 per 1k points. but the army has already been bought and assembled as stated in my previous post (well except for the second corvus).

 

 

Definitely with Moostick, you've quite a bit of toys in your list. A good rule of thumb I recommend for DW people, at least when starting out, is no more than 3 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons per squad. The exception would be if you built a squad with a purpose (4 frag cannons in a squad in a blackstar, a VV unit with hammers, etc.)

 

For your ven dread situation, you could replace one with a lascannon razor back to get some points back.

 

I honestly don't see a need to have 2 squads with 4 frag cannons. One squad is going to wipe out whatever you put in front of them. Once they're gone, what do you target next? Will you be in range to use the frag profile? And after you shoot 8D6 auto-hits into a unit, I promise you all of your opponent's fire will be put into those frag units. They will not last past the turn they disembark.

 

For anti-armor considerations, most people will agree the lascannon is king. If you don't have lascannons, you can still consider meltas and plasma. A squad with some combi-plasma (or hellblasters) is potent against most infantry squads and can still pepper the vehicles... More of a anti-armor support weapon. The meltas are great if you plan to disembark a squad next to something big, and the weapons are cheaper then frag cannons.

 

Try to design your squads with purpose (kind of like in 7th?), more than just melee or shooty squads. What is this shooty squad going to shoot? Infantry? Bolters, shields, 2 frags and a power sword will do the job. Want a shooty support unit? A stalker team with 3 stalkers and 2 missiles can both shred infantry at 36" and smack vehicles at 48".

 

Just some things to think about man.

 

of all the batreps I have watch, a single squad of frag cannons is not enough for anything above 1k points (especially against tau and daemons). Too many armies can put out so many models (like daemons, tyranids and orks getting up to 30 models per squad, and its actually normal to see that happen) that 4 frag cannons that have to be in charge range to make use of is not enough firepower.

 

In my melee focused group, I have 2 combi-melta's, heavy thunder hammer and 3 power swords (not including the sergeants xenophase blade) and 2 storm shields. So a good mix of weapons to hit both vehicles and be useful in melee.

 

Though I think I will drop the 2 venerables for a lascannon razorback and throw in a frag cannon into the melee squad and that will put me at 1995 points for a 2k list.

 

That will give me a long range squad of 5 stalkers and 4 heavy bolters in 1 squad to sit with the razorback and the watch master, and that gives corvus 1 the melee focused group to carry with artemis, and corvus 2 will carry the 2 frag cannon squads with the watch captain with the jump pack to back them up or possibly take objectives.

 

So here is what I am thinking now:

Watch Master (130)

Watch Captain Artemis (130)

Watch Captain (119) (heavily modified artemis, gave him a jump pack, xenophase blade, combi-melta, he actually looks pretty awesome)

Squad 1: Sergeant with xenophase blade+ storm shield, heavy thunder hammer, 2 combi-melta's + 2 power swords, power sword +storm shield. (192) + 1 more veteran and frag cannon (241)

Squad 2: Sergeant with xenophase blade+ storm shield, 4 deathwatch frag cannons. (227)

Squad 3: Sergeant with xenophase blade+ storm shield, 4 deathwatch frag cannons. (227)

Squad 4: Sergeant with Stalker Bolter + powersword, 4 stalker bolters, 4 infernus heavy bolters. (295)

Corvus, hurricane bolters, infernum, blackstar rockets, twin assault canons. (249)

Corvus, hurricane bolters, infernum, blackstar rockets, twin assault canons. (249)

Razorback, storm bolter, hunter killer missile, twin lascannon (128)

Army Total= 1995  power= 97

Battalion Detachment: 3 HQ, 4 troops, 2 flyers, 1 transport. 6 command points.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Saxxon the Dragoon

[Moostick]

Play a few games first. It seems like you have your mind set on majority of the list already, and since it depends entirely on your local meta and how your opponents are, I can only understand how this would go against my local meta.

 

There are units and loadouts I feel you have misplaced high expectations on, and I think seeing it for yourself in an actual game is the best way to get a feel on what actually works and what doesn't.

[Kargrym]

My rule of thumb is if your 2000 pt army exceeds 100 power then you are doing good.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

So just did a 1k match with my deathwatch against space wolves. The space wolves player had no idea what to expect against deathwatch, and paid dearly for it. Here is what was taken.

 

DW:

Watch Master

Watch Captain w/ jump pack, xenoblade and combi-melta

2 squads of 4 frag cannons, sgt's with xenoblade and storm shield.

Sergeant with xenophase blade+ storm shield, heavy thunder hammer, 2 combi-melta's + 2 power swords, power sword +storm shield.

Razorback w/ twin heavy bolter, storm bolter and HKM.

 

SW:

Wolf Lord w/ combi-melta and frost blade.

Thunderwolf cavalry (3) storm shields, frost axes and a thunderhammer.

2 squads of (5) blood claws w/ chainswords and bolt pistols, sgt's had storm shield and thunder hammer.

5 fenrisian wolves

Relic Contemptor Dread with kheres assault cannon, plasma blast gun, D CCW, cyclone missile launcher.

Wulfen squad (5), 2 storm shields, 2 thunderhammers, 3 frost claws.

 

Just a simple annihilation game. And I tabled the player by the top of turn 5, my 2 hq's and my melee squad and the razorback died, but my 2 frag cannon squads at full strength. Lets just say that after getting their entire squad of fenrisian wolves and thunderwolf cavalry wiped off the table charging 1 squad of frag cannons in overwatch, they refused to charge my other squad with their wulfen in the bottom of turn 3 and went for my melee squad and watch master. which after their wulfen wiped out my melee squad and 2 hq's (and then wiped out the last wound on the razorback) they couldnt consolidate into my frag cannons and got wiped out.

[spacewatch]

...

2 squads of 4 frag cannons, sgt's with xenoblade and storm shield.

...

 

 

Overwhelming firepower, my favourite strategy :D You could have taken four team's each having x2 FC's. Would that have made any difference regarding the end result? I mean how crucial it was that you had x4 FC's in teams? I ask this because I've realized that bigger, tougher and more shooty Kill-Teams would have worked better in some games I have had against tournament level Orc lists.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

 

...

2 squads of 4 frag cannons, sgt's with xenoblade and storm shield.

...

 

 

Overwhelming firepower, my favourite strategy You could have taken four team's each having x2 FC's. Would that have made any difference regarding the end result? I mean how crucial it was that you had x4 FC's in teams? I ask this because I've realized that bigger, tougher and more shooty Kill-Teams would have worked better in some games I have had against tournament level Orc lists.

 

Having a smaller force for quicker deployment, as well as being able to direct that overwhelming firepower when needed is what saved the game. If I didnt have 4 frag cannons in the 2 squads, I wouldnt have been able to direct the enemy. With both fenrisian wolves and thunderwolf cavalry coming in on my flank, with wulfen running down the center, and a contemptor with 2 squads of bloodclaws trying to flank on the other side, overwhelming firepower was the only answer. I maneuvered my squads so that my opponent couldnt charge their first turn, made them come to me, then I moved up to shell and take out 1 thunderwolf cav (with all 3 with storm shields, they were pretty damn tanky), and then their next turn they moved as close as they could before charging, and that put them in frag range and I wiped out the wolves and thunderwolf cav in overwatch. With my left flank clear that allowed me to put some wounds and take out a wulfen with my other squad (the wulfen had 2 storm shields for a 3++, and with a 5+++, they are hard to take down). My razorback's HKM took 4 wounds off the contemptor, and my captain with jump pack was able to take another 4 wounds off with the melta, I charged and got into melee with the dread to stop its firepower (though I did lose 1 wound to overwatch).

 

With the bloodclaws nearly wiped out thanks to the twin heavy bolter, my captain engaged with the dread, and my 2 frag cannon teams putting the fear of the god emperor into my opponent (having 2 overwatches that had just under 30 wounds each will even scare a determined wulfen charge) that forced my opponent to charge my melee squad with his 4 wulfen (1 died to shelling from one of my frag squads) and 3 bloodclaws and their wolf lord to charge my watch master and my melee squad. My watch master was able to kill the wolf lord, but the wulfen and blood claws wiped out my melee squad. My watch captain killed the dread (but was dropped to 1 wound) and charged the blood claws and wiped them out, my watch master tried to kill the wulfen but they made all their saves and then killed my watch master and captain. on my opponents turn they charged and wiped out what few wounds were left on the razorback, but after killing it they were within frag cannon range of my 2 squads. So doing 16D6 auto-hitting shots, even my opponent knew they couldnt realistically survive it. So I rolled anyway, and yeah, I was able to deal enough wounds to wipe out the squad with a few to spare after everything was said and done.

 

You NEVER take chanced against things like Wulfen or carnifex's, thats a lesson I have learned the hard way. You either bring overwhelming firepower on them or you hope that the dice gods favor you, otherwise RNGesus is will bite you in the arse.

[Moostick]

I recommend bringing a different loadout next time you play him, and to consider spacewatch's suggestion of reducing FCs in a unit.

 

Now that the shock and awe is over, frag cannons lose a lot of their effectiveness; it only works when your opponent doesn't expect it. Poor guy probably regrets bringing an assault army.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

I recommend bringing a different loadout next time you play him, and to consider spacewatch's suggestion of reducing FCs in a unit.

 

Now that the shock and awe is over, frag cannons lose a lot of their effectiveness; it only works when your opponent doesn't expect it. Poor guy probably regrets bringing an assault army.

I am not sorry about loading 2 squads of frag cannons, the space wolf player used a similar list last time we played, I brought my sisters (with celestine) to go up against their space wolves. The bastard's wulfen squad wiped out celestine and her geminae in a single charge (I did roll her resurrect which helped me win the game later when she did heroic intervention when the wulfen assaulted my battle sisters). So you could say there was a little animosity there.

[spacewatch]

 

I recommend bringing a different loadout next time you play him, and to consider spacewatch's suggestion of reducing FCs in a unit.

 

Now that the shock and awe is over, frag cannons lose a lot of their effectiveness; it only works when your opponent doesn't expect it. Poor guy probably regrets bringing an assault army.

I am not sorry about loading 2 squads of frag cannons, the space wolf player used a similar list last time we played, I brought my sisters (with celestine) to go up against their space wolves. The bastard's wulfen squad wiped out celestine and her geminae in a single charge (I did roll her resurrect which helped me win the game later when she did heroic intervention when the wulfen assaulted my battle sisters). So you could say there was a little animosity there.

 

 

Guys, the beauty of the Deathwatch is that we can equip our Kill-Teams as we like, based on local meta and mission to play. And I agree that the tougher the game is the sweeter the victory is :) I asked about your FC's so I could better understand what was the critical amount to handle those wolves and would it have been possible to do the same with to separate Frag teams each having just two FC's. Now I know better so thanks mate for clarification how it went. In my local meta, and in this I concur with Moostick, it's too risky to use x4 FC teams because of enemy long range shooting abilities. But I have had good succes with two Frag teams fighting very close to each other. One team has Frags plus some long range or special shooting capabilities (Stalkers, combi-plasmas/meltas) while the other has Frags plus some melee capabilities (claws, power weapons, hammers, ...) and both of course have enough SS's :)

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

I dont disagree with you, and I guess local meta tends to play a bigger role on loadout preferences. There are several tyranid, demon, and space wolf players where I play at. My frag cannons are cans of RAID, real dangerous to play with but real powerful to use if you can put up the right situation. With squads of 20 or 30 daemons, lots of genestealers or incredibly troublesome units like thunderwolf cavalry and wulfen (wulfen are so incredibly irritating to deal with when they have storm shields in addition to a 5+ FNP). Getting 8d6 shots in close range or overwatch, or getting 8 str 7 shots out to 24" its great for dealing with daemon princes, carnifex/hive tyrants and light vehicles. Yeah, they arent as good as lascannons for taking out high wound units, but they are better than flamers in close range due the versatility.

[Moostick]

Concern is that once they know about the 2D6 flamer, they won't make the mistake of charging it again without proper precautions. All my opponents fell for the frag cannons once and have countered them since.

 

Nothing hurts more than having a 200 point unit shot off the board by a much cheaper volley of AP0 and AP-1 dakka. Only so many 3 and 4+ saves one can make.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

well in a 1k game, yeah it would be pretty hard to take much in the way of transport and still take 2 squads of frag cannons, but my army was designed for 2k games where I could fit a couple of corvus to be transports so I could get my units to the fight and make use of those frag cannons. Not a perfect solution but it beats foot slogging them. But the wolf player was only interested in doing a 1k match, so I had to work around that. It played into my favor that they didnt take any kind of long fangs or long range support besides the contemptor or i probably would have been screwed. without the contemptor pretty much everything else in their army was bolt pistols and melee range. perfect frag cannon fodder.