Jump Pack adjustment

[Kallas]

As written they are the rules. There is no other way to interpret them.

That is demonstrably untrue! :P

 

 

I'm also in the can move over camp. RAW allows charging models to move through charge targets, otherwise, and charging units wouldn't be able to move vertically (vertical movement is in the Movement Phase section folks!) either. Also rerolls are limited to the Psychic Phase, as are roll offs - so by RAW we're incapable of starting games because you can't roll off for first turn or deployment!!

[Palwatch]

Well that is absolutely not true. The roll off stuff sits outside the Psychic phase of the rulebook. The move through stuff is visibly contained in the movement section. Nowhere in the rules does it say you can charge over or through stuff. It just doesn't.

[Palwatch]

It needs to be FAQd for sure, as the entire thing rests on if you consider charging movement. Obviously a charge is a move,but not in the context of the defined phases. I want to be able to do it so please don't get snippy with me,but as written,it does not say you can charge thru or over stuff. Anywhere in the rulebook.

[Kallas]

Well that is absolutely not true. The roll off stuff sits outside the Psychic phase of the rulebook.

Well that's debatable! :P

 

The move through stuff is visibly contained in the movement section. Nowhere in the rules does it say you can charge over or through stuff. It just doesn't.

You missed my point.

 

If the FLY part applies only in Movement phase because that's where it's located then it follows that all of the remaining rules there only apply during Movement phase. Which includes the restriction on moving through models.

 

To spell it out: the Movement phase rules say that you can't move through models, but the Charge phase rules don't - by the logic presented here, you are allowed to move through models in the Charge phase.

 

Also, as I mentioned, the Charge phase has no rules for vertical movement, so hide up top on a building and be safe from chargers forever!

 

And that's why this RAW argument is dumb. FLY can move over stuff in Charge phase, and other stuff cannot move through other models and they can move vertically, because that would be stupid.

[Panda_Saurus_Rex]

 

Well that is absolutely not true. The roll off stuff sits outside the Psychic phase of the rulebook.

Well that's debatable!

 

The move through stuff is visibly contained in the movement section. Nowhere in the rules does it say you can charge over or through stuff. It just doesn't.

You missed my point.

 

If the FLY part applies only in Movement phase because that's where it's located then it follows that all of the remaining rules there only apply during Movement phase. Which includes the restriction on moving through models.

 

To spell it out: the Movement phase rules say that you can't move through models, but the Charge phase rules don't - by the logic presented here, you are allowed to move through models in the Charge phase.

 

Also, as I mentioned, the Charge phase has no rules for vertical movement, so hide up top on a building and be safe from chargers forever!

 

And that's why this RAW argument is dumb. FLY can move over stuff in Charge phase, and other stuff cannot move through other models and they can move vertically, because that would be stupid.

 

 

 

A large part of the reason I posted here is bc my current gaming group is treating that WH FB page as gospel so I was looking for ways to defeat the argument. All of this started bc of the disparity on charge distances between units with fly vs units without. I was in a middle camp just saying measure diagonally but deep strikes are always 9". Someone found that FB quote and sent me scrambling.

[Brother Crimson]

Well that is absolutely not true. The roll off stuff sits outside the Psychic phase of the rulebook. The move through stuff is visibly contained in the movement section. Nowhere in the rules does it say you can charge over or through stuff. It just doesn't.

But the charge says you roll to MOVE the models up to the rolled value. This is where the ambiguity comes from: as fly grants an ability when you move a model it could also apply in the charge phase as written.

 

If they specify via FAQ or if they change the sentence that the unit charges towards the target instead of move towards the target it would become obvious that move and charge are distinct but right now it is blurred together.

[Panzer]

 

Well that is absolutely not true. The roll off stuff sits outside the Psychic phase of the rulebook.

Well that's debatable!

 

The move through stuff is visibly contained in the movement section. Nowhere in the rules does it say you can charge over or through stuff. It just doesn't.

You missed my point.

 

If the FLY part applies only in Movement phase because that's where it's located then it follows that all of the remaining rules there only apply during Movement phase. Which includes the restriction on moving through models.

 

To spell it out: the Movement phase rules say that you can't move through models, but the Charge phase rules don't - by the logic presented here, you are allowed to move through models in the Charge phase.

 

That one is honestly not true tho. The part about the charge move also says that you can't move within 1" of enemy models.

[Kallas]

That one is honestly not true tho. The part about the charge move also says that you can't move within 1" of enemy models.

Sorry, I shouldn't have cut corners: you'd still be able to move through models that you targeted.

[Kallas]

A large part of the reason I posted here is bc my current gaming group is treating that WH FB page as gospel so I was looking for ways to defeat the argument. All of this started bc of the disparity on charge distances between units with fly vs units without. I was in a middle camp just saying measure diagonally but deep strikes are always 9". Someone found that FB quote and sent me scrambling.

FLY doesn't let a model ignore vertical distances when actually moving up and down - check out the wording compared to the Reivers' Grapnel Launchers. So a FLY unit deep striking next to a unit on a building (assuming one isn't trying to play super RAW where you can't charge vertically!) would still have to make a 9" charge. Reivers might not have to roll, as a 2 might get them in if the building were tall enough.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Kallas

[Panzer]

 

That one is honestly not true tho. The part about the charge move also says that you can't move within 1" of enemy models.

Sorry, I shouldn't have cut corners: you'd still be able to move through models that you targeted.

 

Okay now it would work RAW. :D

[Bonzi]

So, a Hell Turkey and a Storm Raven are in super sonic mode and the Turkey trys to charge the Raven because they both have keyword fly. Both flyers then instantly drop to the ground and the Turkey begins sliding across the ground towards the beached Raven....engines roaring to push the flyer over the ground because there is no flying in the charge phase. But lo! A space marine scout squad stands between the flyers, thus preventing the Turkey from making the charge. As the scouts are about to charge the Turkey because it's clearly not flying in the charge phase the flyers both activate their engines and race back up into the sky....the Scout charge can't be completed because they don't have the fly keyword and can't attack the flyers that can't fly in the charge phase.

 

A paradox hole rips the universe apart and kills everyone.

[Panzer]

So, a Hell Turkey and a Storm Raven are in super sonic mode and the Turkey trys to charge the Raven because they both have keyword fly. Both flyers then instantly drop to the ground and the Turkey begins sliding across the ground towards the beached Raven....engines roaring to push the flyer over the ground because there is no flying in the charge phase. But lo! A space marine scout squad stands between the flyers, thus preventing the Turkey from making the charge. As the scouts are about to charge the Turkey because it's clearly not flying in the charge phase the flyers both activate their engines and race back up into the sky....the Scout charge can't be completed because they don't have the fly keyword and can't attack the flyers that can't fly in the charge phase.

 

A paradox hole rips the universe apart and kills everyone.

Apparently. And they fly up again to move over terrain because the charge move doesn't say you can't move through terrain. And the Scout jumps really high to charge over mountains and ruins and stuff but can't jump high enough to reach the Turkey. 

Edited January 11, 2018 by sfPanzer

[toaae]

Nowhere in the rules does it say you can charge over or through stuff. It just doesn't.

 

And again, I refer you to my previous posts. There is only one spot it says you can't move through stuff, and that is in the movement phase. This goes both ways. You cannot tell me that RAW says the Fly keyword doesn't apply in the charge phase, but then turn around and tell me that you can't move through models when charging. The rules don't say that. It just doesn't.

[Jolemai]

Gents maybe take this up in the OR?

[brother_b]

So, a Hell Turkey and a Storm Raven are in super sonic mode and the Turkey trys to charge the Raven because they both have keyword fly. Both flyers then instantly drop to the ground and the Turkey begins sliding across the ground towards the beached Raven....engines roaring to push the flyer over the ground because there is no flying in the charge phase. But lo! A space marine scout squad stands between the flyers, thus preventing the Turkey from making the charge. As the scouts are about to charge the Turkey because it's clearly not flying in the charge phase the flyers both activate their engines and race back up into the sky....the Scout charge can't be completed because they don't have the fly keyword and can't attack the flyers that can't fly in the charge phase.

 

A paradox hole rips the universe apart and kills everyone.

 

I laughed at this. Thank you.

[keeblerartillery]

Sigh. Things like this drive me nuts. As an actual lawyer, people twisting the plain meaning of words to their outermost limits is just...frustrating. there is a basic rule for lawyers/judges when determining what something means, and that is that a law is intended to make sense. And that is done in order to avoid insane, paradoxical readings of, well, everything. Sometimes, 40k rules can be obtuse and arcane. Sometimes, the community gets hellbent on twisting something simply because they can. This appears to be one of those times

[Shaezus]

I would genuinely love to know the particular incident(s) which led to the guy posting the question in the first place :D

[robofish7591]

Sigh. Things like this drive me nuts. As an actual lawyer, people twisting the plain meaning of words to their outermost limits is just...frustrating. there is a basic rule for lawyers/judges when determining what something means, and that is that a law is intended to make sense. And that is done in order to avoid insane, paradoxical readings of, well, everything. Sometimes, 40k rules can be obtuse and arcane. Sometimes, the community gets hellbent on twisting something simply because they can. This appears to be one of those times

 

I can't like this post enough. Seriously, some people try to twist rules in such bizarre ways.

[brother_b]

Sigh. Things like this drive me nuts. As an actual lawyer, people twisting the plain meaning of words to their outermost limits is just...frustrating. there is a basic rule for lawyers/judges when determining what something means, and that is that a law is intended to make sense. And that is done in order to avoid insane, paradoxical readings of, well, everything. Sometimes, 40k rules can be obtuse and arcane. Sometimes, the community gets hellbent on twisting something simply because they can. This appears to be one of those times

As someone who routinely works with Lawyers, in court, I'm pretty sure ya'll twist the plain meaning of words to their utmost limits... all the time!

 

I joke, I joke!

 

On a side note, your statement basically epitomizes the problem with some gamers, and just about all internet complainers. This is a game and the rules should be used to provide a framework for the players' narrative, be that a for-fun game or a serious competitive tournament. The amount of limit-pushing, common-sense abusing shills is just too much.

 

Spirit of the law vs. letter of the law indeed counselor! Well said.

[Brother Crimson]

The problem I see is what was intended. Did they want fly to work only movement phase to keep things simple or they did not specify it un charge because it was already mentioned.

I really hope we can hop over units with a unit that has a jump pack, it fits the role of jump infantry and whoever played Dawn of War knows how cool it is.

[Kallas]

The problem I see is what was intended. Did they want fly to work only movement phase to keep things simple or they did not specify it un charge because it was already mentioned.

I really hope we can hop over units with a unit that has a jump pack, it fits the role of jump infantry and whoever played Dawn of War knows how cool it is.

You're definitely able to move over any units you declare a charge against, because either:

 

A - the rules for FLY and not being allowed to otherwise move through models count for things other than the Movement Phase, or;

 

B - the rules for those don't apply, meaning that you are able to move through other models (because there aren't any rules that say you can't in the Charge Phase).

 

The rules have most of the relevant rules for a certain action in the most relevant phase (so rules for moving are mostly covered in the Movement Phase section, except for the charging but which is unique to the Charge Phase, of course).

 

So yes, FLY does count in the Charge Phase (and any other phase where you get an extra move, such as the Psychic Phase with Wings of Sanguinius) or else a bunch of crazy stuff happens.

 

Basically, common sense: movement rules in the Movement Phase section count, because that's the most logical place rules pertaining to movement...

 

Fly over stuff - it's the only logical way to parse the rules!

[Palwatch]

You can't charge over units or terrain with jump packs because the rules do not say that you can. That is the only pertinent fact in this argument.

[Panzer]

You can't charge over units or terrain with jump packs because the rules do not say that you can. That is the only pertinent fact in this argument.

But the rules also don't say that terrain and other models prevent being able to move through them in general. That part is only in the movement phase as well. Now ask yourself...do you really want to interpret the rules that way and play such a game, or do you want to be reasonable about the whole thing?

[Kallas]

You can't charge over units or terrain with jump packs because the rules do not say that you can. That is the only pertinent fact in this argument.

If you literally ignore my entire argument, sure that's true.

 

But that's simply not the case because you're actively cherry picking rules.

 

Charge Phase has no rules for moving vertically - so you cannot charge vertically, right? Because you don't get permission to? You either apply your logic comprehensively or you have a flawed position.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Kallas

[Morticon]

No that's not RAW. That's not how the rules work or you would've to ignore EVERY movement related rule during the charge including moving through units (hint: you don't!).

 

edited for tone. 

I've spoken to you about this in private before sfP.  Please check your tone when you post - as you come off very aggressively and acerbic in your responses and it doesnt promote a cool,relaxed and positive space for people to freely contribute.

 

Thanks. 

Regarding the "discussion" - i think the WH Community guy got it wrong. 

 

And i PRAY they do not change or FAQ this, as it will nerf what little we have going for us against shooty armies with bubble wrap.