First game in 8th & planning ahead

[Varyn]

Hey guys

 

Had my first game last night against Dark eldar, I took a mixed list of basically whatever I had built at the time (far from optimal)

 

I was using melee terminators, terminator librarian, 3x 5 veterans, rhino, dreadnought (TL lascannon)

 

The terminators were poor, too slow and expensive and didn't get anywhere close to getting their points back in kills. The dreadnought got wrecked on turn 2 and that left me very short on anti armour, which I can see as being a problem in a pure deathwatch list.

 

I have had a think about what I'd like to build towards and have come up with the following list. The fluff/idea behind the list is that the new primaris additions have recently proved themselves and have been trialed into the deathwatch, under the supervision of a sceptical watch captain.

 

Watch captain, relic blade

primaris librarian

 

5 veterans, 2x lightning claws, 2 power swords, 1 stormshield, 1 blackshield, power fist (in rhino with captain)

5 veterans, 2 frag-cannon, power sword

6 veterans, 2 frag-cannon, power sword

 

3 aggressors, flamestorm gauntlets

 

3 bikes, 2 power axe, 1 power maul

 

rhino

 

The plan is for the aggressors to stay backfield with the librarian to deal with deep striking units. Rhino pushes up with the melee unit charging out. Bikers flank to attack weaker units with twin bolters, charging, fallback and charge shenanigans.

 

The list lacks some anti armour still, perhaps I should switch the aggressors for hellblasters? I need to find 60 points to do this though and I am not sure where to get that from?

 

Thanks for reading and all feedback and suggestions are welcome!

 

 

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

Aircraft, get a corvus or two, that will help with getting your units around and give you extra firepower. They offer WAY too much value for their points not to get them (pricey though, not cheap flyers). Dreads arent bad in DW (not optimal, but not bad) the problem is that if your dread is one of the few multi-wound models that can be singled out, its going to take the lion's share of anti-tank weapons. You need to take multiple vehicles/dreads to spread damage or act as a bullet sponge in the current edition. So if your going to take dreads/corvus/rhino/razorbacks in your DW list, you need to take multiples otherwise the individual's are going to die real quick and leave you without support.

 

Terminators in this edition are not great either, too much points for a single wound model that has a 2+ save that can be reduced to a 6+ armor save real quick with a lot of weaponry. And as long as you keep your combat squads small, you dont really need the fearless trait for having termies in your squads.

 

Another thing to consider is just taking a squad of 5 veterans with stalker bolters, sit them in your back line shooting poison rounds at whoever. keep them spread to deny deepstrike territory but dont expect much out of this squad.

 

With aggressors, make them your charge bait, since they auto-hit even in overwatch, try to make them the target of charges or if need be try to charge with them after flaming things to death to tie down squads. Your aggressors need to be up front and pushing on the enemy, dont sit them in the back.

 

Get hellblasters, probably heavy version and sit them in the back/mid too and use them as fire support like your stalker squad. expect them to get attention because they are too dangerous to not leave unmolested, so keep that in mind. Might want to just sit a captain inbetween your stalkers and hellblasters to get those free re-rolls and keep your hellblasters alive if you plan on supercharging them.

 

As for your bikers, thats a real iffy troop choice, they can be real useful, but without invul saves and strong AP weapons they wont last long. Honestly I would say its up to you, but considering the small amount of troops in DW armies they probably wont live past turn 2.

 

The librarian isnt bad choice, and the ability to smite and deal mortal wounds gives you a lot of versatility.

 

and I would say for your melee squad you should take a second storm shield just to be safe, a second 3++ save isnt a bad thing to have for your melee squad.

 

anyways, thats my suggestion. The real problem with primaris right now ISNT that they are bad (the really arent, they are pretty good), the problem is that other than a repulsor, you have no troop transport options for them. So you have to footslog them.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Saxxon the Dragoon

[Varyn]

Thanks for the feedback, I did look at the Corvus but as you say, it's quite expensive for a 1000 point army. 

 

Btw terminators are 2W and the invulnerable is 5+. Also, bikes aren't troops, I thought they were worth a look as they're quick for grabbing objectives, plus twin bolters fire 4 shots per bike at 12".

 

I think i'll play around and try and fit some hellblasters in the list, I may have to rethink the dedicated melee unit, possibly exchanging them for vanguard vets

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

Thanks for the feedback, I did look at the Corvus but as you say, it's quite expensive for a 1000 point army. 

 

Btw terminators are 2W and the invulnerable is 5+. Also, bikes aren't troops, I thought they were worth a look as they're quick for grabbing objectives, plus twin bolters fire 4 shots per bike at 12".

 

I think i'll play around and try and fit some hellblasters in the list, I may have to rethink the dedicated melee unit, possibly exchanging them for vanguard vets

I say terminators are '1 wound' models are because the weapons they would be saving against (like melta guns for example) are most D3 or D6 wounds, and so even if you are using them to tank heavy weapons, you are often going to rely on invul saves and its cheaper to take a stormshield which is a 3++ as compared to the 5++ on termies. since so many weapons can reduce the 2+ save on a termie to a 4+ or even 6+ they arent worth the price for what they bring.

 

Its good to have at least 1 dedicated melee unit of vets to tie up 1 or more enemy squads and to be able to contest objective. I have 1 squad of dedicated melee vets in my list as well, though I dont know if its worth taking a blackshield. But definitely get a squad of hellblasters at the minimum if you arent going to be taking a corvus or multiple razorbacks with twinlas on them.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

sorry for the double post.

 

Here, give these batreps a watch with these DW comps.

skip to about 40min if you want to get right to the battle

 

This one is DW vs Necrons and a much quicker watch

 

This batrep is the video that got me onto the deathwatch train.

 

As you can see, the corvus costs a lot of points (and a good chunk of money) but it usually pulls its weight in the game as both a transport and gunship.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Saxxon the Dragoon

[Varyn]

thanks a lot, I'll give those a watch!

 

Plenty of info to digest :) 

[Prot]

I think Saxxon has some great advice for your starting campaign along Deathwatch. I would be sure you want to do this though... it's a fun army at best right now. We're still eagerly awaiting the codex and some of the negativity concerning the army can be a bit much. I would just... ease into them. Proxy if you can, take your time. See if this is what you really want. 

[Varyn]

yeah I plan on just using them as my second army for the time being (thousand sons are my priority) I managed to get a load of deathwatch very cheap on ebay which is why I have been experimenting with them!

 

Deathwatch seem to have a few gaps in the army list and other issues at the moment. Fingers crossed a codex will help us!

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

yeah I plan on just using them as my second army for the time being (thousand sons are my priority) I managed to get a load of deathwatch very cheap on ebay which is why I have been experimenting with them!

 

Deathwatch seem to have a few gaps in the army list and other issues at the moment. Fingers crossed a codex will help us!

Thats the problem with specialist/elite armies, especially when they have only had 1 edition of rules. Grey Knights back in 3rd/4th edition were just like that before they got all their new toys in 5th edition.

 

No joke, playing Grey Knights in 3rd/4th edition was literally the DARK SOULS of 40k, especially if you were fighting anything other than daemons.

Luckily DW can take things like primaris and such from the marine codex to help pad out their issues, but they still lack a lot of things. So many units (like primaris) cant use specialist ammo, the infernus heavy bolter is stupidly overpriced, and the lack of heavy weapon teams that you can buy (gotta get the bits off secondary sellers) if you actually want to create fragcannon teams.

 

When deathwatch get a codex with their own strategems, updated points and troop listings and proper wargear/trait choices that are themed for them will help them out. Deathwatch isn't a bad army by any means, its just that the flaws in the army can be exploited very easily.

 

The one army that I am actually scared of getting a codex (and its an army thats a legitimate threat already without a codex) is the Tau. If you cant get them locked down in combat, you can get table'd stupidly fast against Tau especially with all the heavy weapons crisis suits can field that can deepstrike and nuke the few vehicles DW can actually use.

 

I will echo what prot said and warn you about investing too heavily into deathwatch, they can be a lot of fun and you can pull some crazy stuff with them (with the right tactical acumen) but a streak of bad luck on your side or good luck on your opponent's side can leave you with nothing on the table by turn 2 or 3.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Saxxon the Dragoon

[Silas7]

As we know GW won't put rules on units unless that box has those options modeled in the kit, so my hopes for a true to heart codex for DWch in 8th is slim to none. But hey would you like to buy a box of custodes?

[Thanatos31]

There will be a Codex for DW in 2018. It will probably be summer/Fall looking at the release schedules

[Moostick]

No one questions there will be one, but our hopes on what it will contain are pretty dismal. Unfortunately, the release of the Custodes codex is a bad sign for us.

 

That being said, I've already conceded and allied DW with other Imperium armies, so my recommendation would be for OP to do the same. DW as a standalone army is just so bad in anything even semi-competitive that the people I play against don't even have fun against them.

[Polak]

No one questions there will be one, but our hopes on what it will contain are pretty dismal. Unfortunately, the release of the Custodes codex is a bad sign for us.

 

That being said, I've already conceded and allied DW with other Imperium armies, so my recommendation would be for OP to do the same. DW as a standalone army is just so bad in anything even semi-competitive that the people I play against don't even have fun against them.

 

It can be a good sign as well, GW invested in expanding a force with new kits when they had only one. What do we have? The watch master, corvus and veterans box, and then selected access to certain SM units. So we might end up as a filler codex again, fill us somewhere during an AOS heavy month as some 40k content. Or maybe if we are lucky we might get a new kit or few? Now this of course is wishful thinking.

 

But I rather be hopeful till the codex hits, cause I think we'll turn out better than the mess we were in 7th.

[Moostick]

It can be a good sign as well, GW invested in expanding a force with new kits when they had only one. What do we have? The watch master, corvus and veterans box, and then selected access to certain SM units. So we might end up as a filler codex again, fill us somewhere during an AOS heavy month as some 40k content. Or maybe if we are lucky we might get a new kit or few? Now this of course is wishful thinking.

 

But I rather be hopeful till the codex hits, cause I think we'll turn out better than the mess we were in 7th.

 

The amount of resources spent on the release of Primaris and DG drained a lot of it, and the unexpected announcement of a new Custodes line takes even more up, which is why I feel it's a bad sign for us (no more resources dedicated to new models for DW). Also kind of jealous they'd rather upgrade an Imperium side army to a full army over caring for the heavily neglected existing DW (in the same vein as resource allocation). In addition, they've separated Sisters of Silence from them, so either they combined them with Sisters in general, or we have one more codex to be released. This also suggests that they will not combine Deathwatch with Inquisition (or any other armies), which is a little disappointing to me, personally. As Silas7 mentioned, with GW's mindset of "not-on-sprue, not-in-army", we won't see an extension of our arsenal unless, like you mentioned, they give us access to more from the SM line. Honestly, at this point, I'd be happy simply with access to the Devastators unit so we get Lascannons, but the fact Veterans are basically both Tactical and Devastators rule-wise already kind of suggests that won't happen. But hey, it might.

 

I know I'm notably negative, but it makes me more sad to see people raving about Deathwatch because someone said "Frag cannons and Corvus; so good", jump in head first, and then realize what they got themselves into. I don't want people to go through that. I want anyone jumping in to understand the state DW is in, not to invest solely hoping they will get better, and to collect and play Deathwatch because they just really like them. I play Deathwatch knowing full well they're in a horrid state, and have compromised by allying them since my opponents actively ask me not to play them. But I do appreciate you and some others remaining positive while understanding DW's state. I'm negative, but I have hope too, and I've told my group I won't give up on Deathwatch completely until GW gives up on them, which will be revealed in our codex release.

[Mobius0288]

Hey guys

 

....

 

The list lacks some anti armour still, perhaps I should switch the aggressors for hellblasters? I need to find 60 points to do this though and I am not sure where to get that from?

 

Thanks for reading and all feedback and suggestions are welcome!

 

So I'd offer a different perspective in some respects.

 

- Blackstars are fantastic. It gets tricky balancing other things with 2 or more, but anything 1500 points or above should probably have 1.

 

- Terminators are pretty awesome in kill teams for because I take them cheap (Storm bolter/power weapon) and pair them with a couple storm shield vets. Termies tank the AP 0/-1 fire and the SS take everything else. You just have to find a balance if you take them due point costs.

 

- Long range stuff is always fun to figure out... a stalker team with a couple missiles can do wonders, especially filling out a battalion for the CPs. Ven Dreads with a lascannon is a pretty big asset for the 2+ BS. If you camp him in the back, you can put a watch Capt in the back with versus trying to use a watchmaster. I wouldn't take multiple Ven Dreads though... I'd consider a razorback with a lascannon if you need another long range asset (its cheaper).

 

- As of chapter approved, you do have an awesome new relic you can use. There are different ways to prepare for it (Jump pack HQ unit deep striking, turn 2 disembark from a vehicle) but basically you can deep strike any unit with 6" of the HQ (more then 9" from an enemy of course). Mid game you could teleport your agressors to the frontline and wreak havoc. Another thought has been to teleport Hellblasters into rapid range of a Capt and focus fire on something big. It can also be used to teleport that odd beefy kill team that doesn't have a transport as well.

 

- Hellblasters are awesome and are a good idea over agressors with flame gauntlets (unless you go the repulsor route). I'm just eyeballing this but you could probably replace the primaris librarian with a regular librarian (sword/bolter), give the Capt a mastercrafted bolter and sword, remove the power weapons from the melee team except for the blackshield & Sgt, remove the 6th veteran from the bottom kill team.... and any extra points, scatter some storm shields on the guys that are walking. *If you wanted the Hellblasters*

 

- There's a few of us on here that like to put our vanguard veterans in the blackstar, so that could be an option for you too. Turn 2 disembark, move 12" (OVER enemy models/bubble wraps) and charge/tie up something nasty. The loadouts vary but you can use Hammers for taking out vehicles or keep them cheap, maybe with a couple SS, so you can wreck infantry while your other forces catch up.

 

As we know GW won't put rules on units unless that box has those options modeled in the kit, so my hopes for a true to heart codex for DWch in 8th is slim to none. But hey would you like to buy a box of custodes?

 

That's not entirely true. A DW kill team can take quite a lot of things, and the sprues don't have all of the possibilities in them - melta guns, plasma guns, heavy bolters, missile launchers, etc.

 

And honestly, part of the fun for DW is kit bashing. So buying a couple tactical space marine boxes, upgrade sprues and a couple kill team boxes gives me almost everything I would need across 4 or 5 complete kill teams. Substitute a space marine box with devastators as appropriate of course.

 

I am a little excited for the 3 man custodes units to come out though :)

[Moostick]

 

As we know GW won't put rules on units unless that box has those options modeled in the kit, so my hopes for a true to heart codex for DWch in 8th is slim to none. But hey would you like to buy a box of custodes?

 

That's not entirely true. A DW kill team can take quite a lot of things, and the sprues don't have all of the possibilities in them - melta guns, plasma guns, heavy bolters, missile launchers, etc.

 

Main explanation would be because this "sprue=options" mindset wasn't pushed until 8th was released. Next would be these options are all available in the Tactical Marine box, which is why we don't get the ones only available in the Devastators box.

 

One thing I wanted to note, but forgot to, was anti-smite is important for DW, so a strong recommendation would be to include psykers. Since Librarians are so expensive, I would go for Inquisitors as a cheap source of DtW rolls. Since we currently lack chapter tactics, there are no downsides to mixing Inquisition in with DW.

[Mobius0288]

Librarians are expensive? They are as cheap as Chaplains now; they can take 3 powers, use 2 and deny the witch. Having one seems like an auto include to me, with inquisitors or a Culexus assassin to help augment the need.

[Moostick]

I'll assume you're exaggerating for effect since I don't really agree that a 33% higher cost in points is just as cheap.

 

But in my opinion, yes, Librarians are too expensive compared to other psykers (both within and outside the Imperium) and this is made even more apparent with DW. Low survivability with only T4/no invul and, with the high cost of the rest of our army, means every point counts. This leads to low model count, which means our psyker characters are much easier to target compared to psykers in other armies. I agree that psykers are auto-include, but I wouldn't say a stock DW Librarian is, especially when currently there are no downsides to taking other Imperium psykers that are either nearly half the cost or cost nearly the same with 2 or 3 denies.

 

It will depend on the local meta, but with the volume of psykers I see and our low model count where even one smite hurts badly, the amount of DtW is more important.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

I dont see a problem with putting a librarian in your list. Dealing mortal wounds with smite, denying psykers and having someone who can do heroic interventions aint a bad thing, and if you take the Nullzone psyker power you can also ruin people's day if you aren't taking xenophase blades. It really depends on your groups meta and if you are more melee focused for your DW. But if you are going the more 'meta' route and fielding lots of frag cannons (which you should, 2d6 auto hit per weapon is too good not to take especially against horde armies) then dropping the librarian for another watch master or a captain would be better for you.

 

The Beacon of Angelis is also a really powerful relic that you can take, allowing you to teleport a unit (either on the field or in reserves) to your warlord. So put a frag cannon squad (or even a melee focus squad) teleport them in and rain hell on your enemies. So if need be you can relocate a squad thats not being effective and put them in a more useful location.