The Fury of Furioso Dreadnoughts: A discussion on their uses

[Aothaine]

Hey everyone,

 

So from what I can tell there are quite a few negative opinions about Furioso Dreadnoughts. I am of the opinion that they can be amazing in the right list. For my example I will be using the Fragioso. 

 

Furioso Dreadnought

Frag Cannon

Furioso Fist + Heavy Flamer

Smoke Launcher

 

 

This bad boy comes out to 175 points. A lot of points for a Dreadnought right? But what can it do and how would I use it?

 

This think pumps out 2d6 S6 AP-1 D1 and 1D6 S5 AP-1 D1 auto hit attacks at 8". A lot of people think that 8" is hard to achieve. However if you design your list correctly getting into 8" of a target is not that difficult.

 

First turn you move, advance and smoke. (I am pretty sure you can smoke if you advance, if not just move and smoke then advance on the next turn and fire.

 

When you are fielding these you need to make sure it is not just one of them. So field at least three of these. If you opponent focuses the three dreads down than the rest of your army should be relatively safe.  24 T7 wounds on a 3+ platform is not too shabby. 

 

I would most likely run a list like below with these bad boys.

 

Total Points: 1981

 

Betallion

 

Captain (Relic Hammer, Jump Pack, Master-Crafted Boltgun) - 117

- Gift of Foresight

 

Librarian (The Angels Wing, Force Axe & Jump Pack) - 122

 

Scout Squad (Bolter x5) - 140

- Land Speeder Storm (Heavy Bolter & Cerebus Launcher)

 

Scout Squad (Bolter x5) - 140

- Land Speeder Storm (Heavy Bolter & Cerebus Launcher)

 

Scout Squad (Bolter x5) - 140

- Land Speeder Storm (Heavy Bolter & Cerebus Launcher)

 

Whirlwind (Whirlwind Vengence Launcher & Hunter-Killer Missile) - 110

 

Whirlwind (Whirlwind Vengence Launcher & Hunter-Killer Missile) - 110

 

Whirlwind (Whirlwind Vengence Launcher & Hunter-Killer Missile) - 110

 

Vanguard Detatchment

 

Captain (Thunder Hammer, Jump Pack, Master-Crafted Boltgun) - 117

 

Furioso Dreadnought (Frag Cannon, Furioso Fist + Heavy Flamer & Smoke Launcher) - 175

 

Furioso Dreadnought (Frag Cannon, Furioso Fist + Heavy Flamer & Smoke Launcher) - 175

 

Furioso Dreadnought (Frag Cannon, Furioso Fist + Heavy Flamer & Smoke Launcher) - 175

 

Furioso Dreadnought (Frag Cannon, Furioso Fist + Heavy Flamer & Smoke Launcher) - 175

 

Furioso Dreadnought (Frag Cannon, Furioso Fist + Heavy Flamer & Smoke Launcher) - 175

 

 

I honestly think this list would pack quite a punch and it is using the Dreadnoughts that works to the advantage of the Furioso. You don't really want to charge with them. Just get within that 8" range and flame on. If your opponent assaults you it is going to hurt pretty damn bad. You have the whirlwinds and land speeders clearing chaff and important targets, Ex. Use the strat Datalink Telemetry on that pesky dev squad or other unit that is going to put out the hurt on your Dreadnoughts and the three whirlwinds do not need los. You then have two baby captain smashy pants and a nasty melee librarian for some of the harder targets. You can also back them up with an assaulting Dreadnought if desired. 

 

The good thing about auto-hit weapons is that you get to ignore those -1 to hit penalties. If you opponent has a flyer they are going shriek in terror when you drop down five of these furioso dreadnoughts and will have a hell of a time getting rid of them before you educate your opponent on the errors of their ways. The list is a little light on bodies and has a high drop count so you will most likely be going second. But again, this won't matter so much unless your opponent has enough anti-tank to wipe 40 T7 wounds off the table split between 5 models. I'm not saying it can't be done, but if you come across someone bringing that kind of cheese to the table you might as well just play the Primarch party lists.  

 

Anyway, I'll check in on this tomorrow and if I think of anything else to add I will. 

[Panzer]

My problem with the Furioso is not that he is that bad but rather that he is pretty pointless unless you take the Fragcannon. If you don't take it just spend 10p more for the DC Dread or take a regular Dread instead.

[Paladin777]

I absolutely agree with sfpanzer. In a 2000pt list I’m thinking about having one furioso and two regular dreads with twin lascannons. The thought behind this is similar to your’s Aothaine. The lascannon dreads are a much more direct thread due to the range of it’s weapons giving the furioso time to get up and personal.

[slowclinic]

When the Angel's blade supplement came out toward the end of 7th, I bought the Chapter Ancients box and built up a Libby, Furioso-frag, and standard dread with a multimelta. I already had a furioso-frag and DC dread built. I'm in no position to buy any large flyers to help with transport, so I'm straight up planning to foot slog them across the board and hope for the best. Like OP said, that many dreads is a lot for most armies to handle with ease, and then you've got everything else.

[barjed]

Furioso is great when it is actually able to do the role it's supposed to do, which is close range shooting and fighting. The problem is that very often it's difficult to get there. If you play with lots of terrain, against close combat armies then you're good. If you field a Stormraven then you're golden - it's probably the best delivery mechanism to the smashbot. Drop, shoot the infantry, charge the vehicle, profit. In other cases, it will struggle.

 

The other problem that Furioso has, is that unlike the Libby and DC variant, it has a direct competitor in the form of a Baal Predator with flamers. Baal cannot defend itself in combat, sure, but OTOH it is more resilient and significantly more killy when shooting, both against infantry and vehicles. Moreover, Baal can use the Lucifer pattern engines, which increases its movement to 20"+ on average. For a suicide skirmisher mobility is king IMO.

 

So the point of this rant is, I guess, that if you have the conditions to make the Furioso shine (delivery / meta / terrain / redundancy) then it will work great. If you take only one with a more universal approach then a Baal Predator with a Flamestorm Cannon and double Heavy Flamers is a superior choice.

[Ushtarador]

I very much like the Furioso as supporting unit and distraction carnifex, but I don't think I would field more than 2 of them. I feel they work best in a very aggressive army that gets into the opponents face on turn 1, but they are easy to remove on their own. I think a major strength of the Furioso is that the Frag Cannon is a threat to light and medium infantry, but he can also reliably punch monsters and vehicles, making him useful against all types of targets. They also don't degrade and remain at full fighting strength down to the last wound. Finally, it's also relatively easy to hide behind LOS terrain or get into cover, which greatly increases its survivability.

 

I actually never had and trouble getting them into shooting range turn 2, two times 8+D6 movement range is huge. However, you often need to advance to get into range, which is why I usually take the cheaper storm bolter instead of the heavy flamer (the flamer is Heavy, not Assault).

 

 

 

My problem with the Furioso is not that he is that bad but rather that he is pretty pointless unless you take the Fragcannon. If you don't take it just spend 10p more for the DC Dread or take a regular Dread instead.

 

This I absolutely agree with. The double fist Furioso would need a serious point reduction to be worthwhile, as he really doesn't bring much to the table, especially compared to the DC dread.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Ushtarador

[Paladin777]

Also, unless they get a major point reduction and/or an AP increase, the blood claws aren’t worth it for either the DC dread nor the furioso.

[Panzer]

Also, unless they get a major point reduction and/or an AP increase, the blood claws aren’t worth it for either the DC dread nor the furioso.

I disagree. With the BA trait the Blood Talons are VERY good. I'd take the Talons over the first on the DC Dread any time.

[Paladin777]

I suppose, IMHO less AP for more points kills it for me. Both are wounding on 2+’s against anything first round of combat.

[Jolemai]

There was a thread like this just last week btw.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/342890-unit-of-the-week-furioso-dreadnought/?do=findComment&comment=4974707

[Panzer]

I suppose, IMHO less AP for more points kills it for me. Both are wounding on 2+’s against anything first round of combat.

Don't forget that the Talons re-roll hits and wounds while the fists only re-roll hits.

[Brother Crimson]

Furioso lacks versatility. When you have a game where you can use the frag cannon correctly they are great but sometimes they are a heavy burden

 

Also there is competition in dreadnought department, take the contemptor for instance: similar price, two more wounds, moves 9, hit on 2+ and has 5++ to resist nasty melta shots. The kheres is not auto hit but with 2+ skill it’s a average 5 hit at 24 inch. With a captain within reach it’s very reliable unit.

[Paladin777]

That is true. I don’t have my codex with me, but what sort of price increase are we looking at for that? Plus, I think the Contemptor has a degrading stat line, doesn’t it?

[Brother Crimson]

That is true. I don’t have my codex with me, but what sort of price increase are we looking at for that? Plus, I think the Contemptor has a degrading stat line, doesn’t it?

It’s 5 points more than a frag furioso. The degrading stats brings you to 3+ skill halfway and 4+ on the two extra wounds.

[Orblivion]

barjed hit the nail on the head for me.  The Fragioso can be great fun dropping down from a Stormraven IMO, but the Baal Predator can bring greater firepower with triple the range for less points.

[Aothaine]

There was a thread like this just last week btw.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/342890-unit-of-the-week-furioso-dreadnought/?do=findComment&comment=4974707

 

My apologies Jolemai! I was out sick for about a week so I ended up missing that post. Feel free to merge or close this thread then.

 

Seems I tend to agree with the majority of the posts here. I had thought otherwise. The Furioso is not bad and can be worked into lists. It is just that most people would rather spend their points on other units is kind of what I'm getting from the responses.

[Paladin777]

Agreed on all counts. It can be made to work, but it’s needs accommodations in the form of delivery/target prioritization/other.

[barjed]

Here's some mathammer if anyone is interested, Fragioso vs Flamestorm Baal against MEQs and vehicles.

 

 

 

Also there is competition in dreadnought department, take the contemptor for instance: similar price, two more wounds, moves 9, hit on 2+ and has 5++ to resist nasty melta shots. The kheres is not auto hit but with 2+ skill it’s a average 5 hit at 24 inch. With a captain within reach it’s very reliable unit.

 

The Contemptor has a very different role in my opinion. It's very much like a Redemptor on a low-calorie diet - it wants to shoot stuff dead from a distance, be (moderately) resilient and offer some charge protection thanks to its ability to cast fist.

 

Fragioso is a suicide unit, very much like Captain Smash, Baal Predators or a DC Dreadnoughts. It wants to get into the face of the enemy, wreak havoc and get destroyed. It doesn't really need to be resilient in my opinion, I think the idea of giving it +2 Movement instead of +1 T was a good choice by GW. Fragioso's niche is the ability to offer a strong shooting and close combat at the same turn, potentially at different targets - something that Baal and DCD cannot do. The problem here is the already discussed lack of a delivery mechanism that doesn't cost 350 points.

 

I really wish Furioso got an additional delivery method in the codex. Letting it ride a Drop Pod or even some kind of a combined deepstrike stratagem ala 7th Helbrutes would give it a very unique and a very solid niche amongst all of the other dreadnoughts. Maybe in the future?

Edited January 12, 2018 by barjed

[Panzer]

I disagree about the Fragioso being a suicide unit. He doesn't have the kind of weapons for that role. He wants to get close to the enemy quickly and stay close for 2-3 rounds without them running put of range of his guns.

 

If I had to name a role for him I'd name it “heavy harasser“ and not “suicide“.

Edited January 12, 2018 by sfPanzer

[barjed]

If you saturate the board with targets then sure but in many cases he's going to be a massive bullet magnet. With 8" shooting range he will probably charge in almost every time, which will increase the rate of him attracting bullets tenfold.

[Paladin777]

It seems to me like it’s the unit you would deploy last to make sure he can get to where he needs to.

[Panzer]

Just because it dies fast it doesn't make it a suicide unit. That just makes it a unit that dies too fast to do its job properly.

[brother_b]

Here's some mathammer if anyone is interested, Fragioso vs Flamestorm Baal against MEQs and vehicles.

 

 

 

Also there is competition in dreadnought department, take the contemptor for instance: similar price, two more wounds, moves 9, hit on 2+ and has 5++ to resist nasty melta shots. The kheres is not auto hit but with 2+ skill it’s a average 5 hit at 24 inch. With a captain within reach it’s very reliable unit.

 

The Contemptor has a very different role in my opinion. It's very much like a Redemptor on a low-calorie diet - it wants to shoot stuff dead from a distance, be (moderately) resilient and offer some charge protection thanks to its ability to cast fist.

 

Fragioso is a suicide unit, very much like Captain Smash, Baal Predators or a DC Dreadnoughts. It wants to get into the face of the enemy, wreak havoc and get destroyed. It doesn't really need to be resilient in my opinion, I think the idea of giving it +2 Movement instead of +1 T was a good choice by GW. Fragioso's niche is the ability to offer a strong shooting and close combat at the same turn, potentially at different targets - something that Baal and DCD cannot do. The problem here is the already discussed lack of a delivery mechanism that doesn't cost 350 points.

 

I really wish Furioso got an additional delivery method in the codex. Letting it ride a Drop Pod or even some kind of a combined deepstrike stratagem ala 7th Helbrutes would give it a very unique and a very solid niche amongst all of the other dreadnoughts. Maybe in the future?

Thank you for the math hammer.

 

The problem is getting that Baal predator with flamestorm close. In the case of encountering a pox walker screen, terminators, or a large group of boys/conscripts you will be countercharged, and then you will be usueless for a turn with the Baal.

 

The fragioso welcomes that. Charge me, great, I can still fight. Also I didn't see the damage for the fragioso melee vs. baal predator. I think this is important because anything within "flamer" range of a fragioso, especially MEQ or a vehicle, is at risk of getting charged.

 

I love the idea of multiple furioso dreads, but I agree I will not run them melee only. For melee I'll take the DC.