Wings of S and fall back?

[John_f]

If you have a Libby in close combat and you use Wings of S to move to a new location, does it count as a fall back move or are you free to charge another unit?

[Pendent]

It does not count as a fallback move- you're free to charge something else.

[NTaW]

Wings says "move as if it was the movement phase", so if you're proceeding to move away from a unit you're locking in with it would count as falling back since it's "as if it was the movement phase".

Would love to be wrong but it seems pretty clear. There's even a stipulation saying that if you fell back earlier you will be allowed to shoot, nothing more.

[John_f]

The FAQ

 

Q: If a unit starts its Movement phase within 1" of an enemy

unit but elects to remain stationary, but subsequently uses a

rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them

up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of

Infinity psychic power, is it considered to have Fallen Back

this turn?

 

A: No.

[Panzer]

The FAQ

 

Q: If a unit starts its Movement phase within 1" of an enemy

unit but elects to remain stationary, but subsequently uses a

rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them

up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of

Infinity psychic power, is it considered to have Fallen Back

this turn?

 

A: No.

That doesn't apply here. Wings of Sanguinius doesn't remove the unit from the battlefield.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

If you used upon wings of fire however for a non dreadnought then it would not be counted as falling back, however in this instance it would be.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

If you used upon wings of fire however for a non dreadnought then it would not be counted as falling back, however in this instance it would be.

I don't get your meaning? I've seen this argued both ways, hopefully GW weighs in soon.

[Pendent]

I was mixing up Wings of Sanguinius and Upon Wings of Fire for the record. In response to the actual question I think the answer would be that no, you cannot charge as the movement is a normal movement that is done as if were the movement phase.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

If you used upon wings of fire however for a non dreadnought then it would not be counted as falling back, however in this instance it would be.

I don't get your meaning? I've seen this argued both ways, hopefully GW weighs in soon.

You remove the unit Nd then replace it upon the battle field same as gate of infinity, which is not considered falling back no?

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

 

 

If you used upon wings of fire however for a non dreadnought then it would not be counted as falling back, however in this instance it would be.

I don't get your meaning? I've seen this argued both ways, hopefully GW weighs in soon.

You remove the unit Nd then replace it upon the battle field same as gate of infinity, which is not considered falling back no?

But why is it different if it's a dreadnought?

[toaae]

 

 

 

If you used upon wings of fire however for a non dreadnought then it would not be counted as falling back, however in this instance it would be.

I don't get your meaning? I've seen this argued both ways, hopefully GW weighs in soon.

You remove the unit Nd then replace it upon the battle field same as gate of infinity, which is not considered falling back no?

But why is it different if it's a dreadnought?

 

 

Can't use Upon Wings of Fire on a dreadnought, even a librarian one with Wings of Sanguinius, as the strategem only works on Jump Pack units.

[Morticon]

Think RAW sfP has it right.  RAI, the FAQ seems to imply the meaning is to allow otherwise.  Although, they may regard that as too powerful for wings- and so will not rule accordingly :/ 

I will be waiting for an FAQ on that, personally.  Though, man, I wish the wording was just slightly different.  

[Kallas]

Think RAW sfP has it right.  RAI, the FAQ seems to imply the meaning is to allow otherwise.  Although, they may regard that as too powerful for wings- and so will not rule accordingly :/ 

 

I will be waiting for an FAQ on that, personally.  Though, man, I wish the wording was just slightly different.  

 

There may be some confusion as to which rules are being talked about.

 

The Upon Wings of Fire Stratagem will allow a model to be removed from the table, redeployed and not have fallen back (so is free to shoot/charge), as is the case with Teleport Homers in the FAQ answer mentioned above.

 

The Wings of Sanguinius psychic power will not allow a model to fall back and charge. This is because Wings of Sanguinius does not function the same as UWoF or Teleport Homers - it simplys grants an additional movement (which may be used to fall back, as it is, "[...[ as if it were your Movement phase") and the FLY keyword. The FLY keyword will allow a psyker that casts it to fall back and shoot (as the text for Wings of Sanguinius itself states) because a model that fell back that also has FLY is allowed to shoot, as per the basic rules.

[swordofmandulis]

Kallas has it 100% correct.

[Morticon]

Yup. Was responding to WoS. 
WoS is good to go., of course. :tu: 

[NTaW]

While I'm sad to not be able to FLY away from combat, I am quite happy to see that Upon Wings of Fire does work that way! I had missed the precedent FAQ in another section and the recent BA FAQ did nothing to clarify my view (though I did send in an email post-Codex with that as one of the questions).

I have 0% faith in the 9" charge even with re-rolls after all my games (5 so far, 3W-2L and a dozen failed charges at least) but that is handy information nonetheless.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

While I'm sad to not be able to FLY away from combat, I am quite happy to see that Upon Wings of Fire does work that way! I had missed the precedent FAQ in another section and the recent BA FAQ did nothing to clarify my view (though I did send in an email post-Codex with that as one of the questions).

 

I have 0% faith in the 9" charge even with re-rolls after all my games (5 so far, 3W-2L and a dozen failed charges at least) but that is handy information nonetheless.

 

Haha ...I hear you man, I've pretty much given up on going for the deep strike assault.

 

Thanks for clearing that up Kallas - and I agree with your rundown, though I still think Wings of Sanguinius power is far from rock solid as to being able to charge or not... "as if it were your movement phase" is still not the movement phase and I wouldn't be surprised if GW enforced this ruling in either direction hah.

[Kallas]

I still think Wings of Sanguinius power is far from rock solid as to being able to charge or not... "as if it were your movement phase" is still not the movement phase and I wouldn't be surprised if GW enforced this ruling in either direction hah.

The key element is not that it's the movement phase but that the model has fallen back.

 

"1. Choose Unit to Charge With

Any of your units within 12" of the enemy in your Charge phase can make a charge move. You may not choose a unit that Advanced or Fell Back this turn, nor one that started the Charge phase within 1" of an enemy."

 

Specifically, this, " You may not choose a unit that [...] Fell Back this turn" does not care whether a unit fell back in the Movement phase, Psychic phase or Shooting phase. If it fell back it's ineligible and Wings of Sanguinius doesn't modify that interaction in any way.

 

Though yes, I could see GW possibly ruling the other way - they're not the most consistent! :P

[Panzer]

Only go for the deep strike assault with the 3d6 Stratagem. Without it consider yourself lucky if you succeed but don't build your strategy around it. ^^

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

 

I still think Wings of Sanguinius power is far from rock solid as to being able to charge or not... "as if it were your movement phase" is still not the movement phase and I wouldn't be surprised if GW enforced this ruling in either direction hah.

The key element is not that it's the movement phase but that the model has fallen back.

 

"1. Choose Unit to Charge With

Any of your units within 12" of the enemy in your Charge phase can make a charge move. You may not choose a unit that Advanced or Fell Back this turn, nor one that started the Charge phase within 1" of an enemy."

 

Specifically, this, " You may not choose a unit that [...] Fell Back this turn" does not care whether a unit fell back in the Movement phase, Psychic phase or Shooting phase. If it fell back it's ineligible and Wings of Sanguinius doesn't modify that interaction in any way.

 

Though yes, I could see GW possibly ruling the other way - they're not the most consistent!

 

 

I think this [yours] is the most reasonable interpretation - but again, it's not rock solid. Using your psychic power to move NEVER says anything about "falling back" and I think that is where the possible 'debate' could be - does moving with Wings count as falling back? - note: it never says that it does, but it could be implied that it is intended because he moves "as if it were the movement phase" - though not actually the movement phase, and that is why the phase matters because that is when you fall back.

 

 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Chaplain Gunzhard

[Kallas]

I think this [yours] is the most reasonable interpretation - but again, it's not rock solid. Using your psychic power to move NEVER says anything about "falling back" and I think that is where the possible 'debate' could be - does moving with Wings count as falling back? - note: it never says that it does, but it could be implied that it is intended because he moves "as if it were the movement phase" - though not actually the movement phase, and that is why the phase matters because that is when you fall back.

 

Wings gives you a movement, but per the standard rules of the Movement Phase (which Wings uses) then you cannot move if you're within 1" of an enemy. So you must then fall back, as if you do not you are not eligible to move. If you don't fall back, it's moot, as you're locked in combat, but if you do...then you have fallen back.

 

As far as "not actually the movement phase", this subject is kind of touched upon in the Jump Pack adjustment thread. To put it simply, and to not rehash that thread, if you ignore the rules for moving presented in the Movement Phase for movement that is outwith the Movement Phase then there are several significant knock on effects (eg, you can move through models you declared a charge against; you cannot move vertically outside of the MP; etc).

 

So while I understand that there's some wiggle room, IMO there's only really one logical way to approach the situation - apply the rules for an action no matter which phase, or you get janky rules.

 

 

PS - Just to clarify tone, I don't want to come off hostile or lecturing, and I think you're on the same page as I am. But don't want to sound like a    

Edited January 15, 2018 by Kallas

[Panzer]

To be fair, since the teleportation move got a FAQ entry this one deserves one as well. Even more actually since moving is less clear than removing from play and seting up somewhere else.

[Kallas]

To be fair, since the teleportation move got a FAQ entry this one deserves one as well. Even more actually since moving is less clear than removing from play and seting up somewhere else.

 

I guess I just don't understand what's unclear :P

 

Wings of Sanguinius doesn't state anything about being allowed to charge after falling back. It also doesn't override any standard Movement phase rules (other than giving you a second one in the Psychic phase of course!) so I don't see why you would be allowed to charge after using it. Again, if you're within 1" of an enemy model in the Movement phase, you can't move, unless you fall back: Wings is a move that follows the rules of the Movement phase (as it is specifically called out), so you'd have to declare a fall back.

 

 I just don't see it.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

 

To be fair, since the teleportation move got a FAQ entry this one deserves one as well. Even more actually since moving is less clear than removing from play and seting up somewhere else.

 

I guess I just don't understand what's unclear

 

Wings of Sanguinius doesn't state anything about being allowed to charge after falling back. It also doesn't override any standard Movement phase rules (other than giving you a second one in the Psychic phase of course!) so I don't see why you would be allowed to charge after using it. Again, if you're within 1" of an enemy model in the Movement phase, you can't move, unless you fall back: Wings is a move that follows the rules of the Movement phase (as it is specifically called out), so you'd have to declare a fall back.

 

 I just don't see it.

 

 

"if you're within 1" of an enemy model in the Movement phase, you can't move, unless you fall back" - just saying, this isn't a constant truth as already addressed by the teleportation FAQ; there are ways to get leave an enemy unit within 1" without it automatically being a fall back move. Wings does happen in the psychic phase - it's not as clear as you think.

 

"Wings doesn't override any standard movement phases rules"... well maybe? - but it also doesn't happen in the movement phase, you are drawing assumptions and conclusions that are not specifically stated. Personally I believe your interpretation to be correct - I just think there is room for alternative interpretation here and if I know anything about the 40k community it will be questioned.

 

EDIT: Further - if you look at the rules for Falling Back, it is something you Choose to do, in the movement phase... so the phase is important. Granted Wings says "as if it were"... not, 100%, clear. What I keep thinking about - is for consolidation moves or pile moves - you CAN move to within 1" of an enemy unit, essentially overriding the movement phase rules - because those moves do not happen in the movement phase.

 

Anyway, sorry to be contradictory dude, in the end I'd definitely go with what you're saying.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Chaplain Gunzhard

[Kallas]

"if you're within 1" of an enemy model in the Movement phase, you can't move, unless you fall back" - just saying, this isn't a constant truth as already addressed by the teleportation FAQ; there are ways to get leave an enemy unit within 1" without it automatically being a fall back move. Wings does happen in the psychic phase - it's not as clear as you think.

"Wings doesn't override any standard movement phases rules"... well maybe? - but it also doesn't happen in the movement phase, you are drawing assumptions and conclusions that are not specifically stated. Personally I believe your interpretation to be correct - I just think there is room for alternative interpretation here and if I know anything about the 40k community it will be questioned.

 

EDIT: Further - if you look at the rules for Falling Back, it is something you Choose to do, in the movement phase... so the phase is important. Granted Wings says "as if it were"... not, 100%, clear. What I keep thinking about - is for consolidation moves or pile moves - you CAN move to within 1" of an enemy unit, essentially overriding the movement phase rules - because those moves do not happen in the movement phase.

 

Anyway, sorry to be contradictory dude, in the end I'd definitely go with what you're saying.

 

Hmm, that is fair to say. There are implicit exceptions to the Movement phase rules (consolidating, like you mentioned).

 

Honestly, I wish I could tighten the rules for GW. It'd be pretty simple :P

 

I believe that the rules are reasonably clear, but I do (now) see your point(s) a bit more clearly now, and I would absolutely not be against an FAQ on the subject. GW games have so often been 'mostly' clear but with enough wiggle room to make things awkward.