Re-rolling 1's with WS2+ and -1 to Hit

[Khornestar]

I'm not quite sure why this issue is causing me so much confusion, but at times I overthink things or just overlook the obvious.

 

I'm talking about arming a chaos lord with a power fist. With a WS of 2+ and -1 to hit from the power fist, he now hits on a 3+ because the 3 becomes a 2 and the 2 becomes a 1. 1 stays a 1. The Chaos Lord re-rolls 1's to hit.

 

So then: I would re-roll both 1's and 2's to hit, because both technically count as 1's, correct?

[Athrawes]

Rerolls occur before modifiers, so you'd only be rerolling the natural 1's i believe. 

 

Edit:

 

To clarify (for myself also), the roll of a 2 doesnt get modified into a "1" due to the negative modifier until after rerolls occur.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Athrawes

[Khornestar]

Ah, gotcha: Roll attacks, re-roll 1's, then only the 3+ among the re-rolls hit.

[Khornestar]

I thought of one more question tangentially related to this topic:

 

If I have a Dark Apostle buffing a model with a Power Fist (i.e. re-roll all missed hits in the fight phase): Since re-rolls happen before modifiers, that means against an IMPERIUM target, 6's would actually trigger Death to the False Emperor! because they have not been modified, correct?

 

And follow-up: for the additional attacks generated by DttFE, those still follow the order of re-roll then modify, yes?

Edited January 24, 2018 by Juggernut

[Arkhanist]

I thought of one more question tangentially related to this topic:

 

If I have a Dark Apostle buffing a model with a Power Fist (i.e. re-roll all missed hits in the fight phase): Since re-rolls happen before modifiers, that means against an IMPERIUM target, 6's would actually trigger Death to the False Emperor! because they have not been modified, correct?

 

And follow-up: for the additional attacks generated by DttFE, those still follow the order of re-roll then modify, yes?

 

No to the first question, yes to the second.

 

Going by the designer's commentary  for effects that occur 'on a roll of' you complete re-rolls and all modifiers first. If the ability applies to unmodified dice rolls it will specifically say so in that ability.

 

So the order would be

1) roll dice per number of A with the powerfist

2) re-rolls trigger before any modifiers are applied, thus:

3) re-roll missed hits using normal WS - thus it's not any better than re-roll 1's if you have WS 2+, but a WS3+ guy would get to re-roll 1's and 2's.

4) apply modifiers to dice, in this case a -1 for a powerfist. 1's cannot be reduced lower (see designer's commentary again) 2's becomes 1, 3's become 2 etc.

5) compare modified result to WS - for a WS 2+ guy he thus needs 2 or higher on the final modified die value, effectively natural 3's or higher because of the previous -1 *

6) see if you can trigger DttFE for imperium target. Natural 6's have been modified down to 5's, so there's no way to get that 6+ and trigger it.

7) Assuming you used a different weapon and didn't have the -1 to hit, and did roll 6's, you'd get an extra attack with the same weapon per 6 and start over from step 1 with additional dice for those, with the caveat that any further 6's don't trigger it again as per the ability text.

 

 

* ( I find it easier to think of a -1 to hit turning a 2+ requirement into a 3+ for speed rather than mentally subtracting 1 from each die result, but you do need to remember to do it at the other end also - what was a 6+ requirement becomes a 7+ requirement, which is the same effect as taking natural 6's and subtracting 1 to get 5's to fail a 6+ requirement)

 

You'll note that for a WS2+ guy, he doesn't get to re-roll natural 2's 'with re-roll misses' because re-rolls always happen before and ignore modifiers, but they still ultimately miss because of the -1 modifier making them 1's. This is by design, if somewhat counter-intuitive to earlier edition players.

Edited January 26, 2018 by Arkhanist

[Khornestar]

I'm not sure I understand exactly...

 

Are you saying that I roll my hit dice, and even though the 2's count as hits initially because re-rolls happen before modifiers, those 2's are later changed to 3's during the part of the calculations where negative modifiers are applied?

 

*edit*

 

Okay, yeah, I get it now. 

Edited January 26, 2018 by Juggernut

[Arkhanist]

Yeah, I mixed methods a bit on step 5 there - bit of an awkward explanation. I've rewritten step 5 and the subnote to hopefully make it clearer for future readers!