Arming Veterans

[Jarl Deathwolf]

Hail, brave soldiers of the Emperor! I come from the frozen wastes of the Space Wolves forum because I'm building a small Guard force to supplement my army. For narrative reasons my guardsmen will all be Veterans and I plan on fielding three squads of them, supported by a Leman Russ, Crusaders and/or a Command Squad, all lead by a Company Commander. I am leaning towards the Mordian regiment doctrine. Their role in my army will likely be guarding the Long Fangs or holding what my vanguard take.

 

Unfortunately, I have no idea on what to give them.

 

I've been stalking the army lists here for a week or so and I see that plasma guns are popular, as they are everywhere. I have five spare Fenrisian plasma guns I could convert for mortals to use, but that is only enough to equip one squad, two if I find an extra gun.

 

Is there anything else worth taking? Or should I buy even more plasma bits?

 

 

[WarriorFish]

If they're supporting your Wolves, is there anything in particular that they're lacking? Or would prefer not to do? That would be a good start :) If they're to be a supporting unit holding back then plasma does sound more useful, with a greater range than melta for example. Plus plasma is good in 8th, but don't forget the option for a heavy weapon team for some extra range and punch. Again something longer range would be good, perhaps an autocannon to match the plasma a bit?

[ImperialSquishiness]

Plasma is good. Autocannons would be a good shout for the HWS. Space Marine heavy weaponry is generally good for either anti infantry or anti tank. Autocannons can do a number on infantry, especially multi wound kind and light vehicles with their 2 damage hits.

 

Mordian doctrines also good to take as leadership and Overwatch benefits

Edited January 14, 2018 by ImperialSquishiness

[Frater Cornelius]

Guard Heavy Weapons are tend to be more efficient than Marine ones, outside of Lascannons, but I do not think Vets are a good unit for them. They tend to be on the move and IG HW shine through numbers, something Vets won’t offer. I’d keep Heavy Weapons in the HWS.

 

Now that camo pants are a thing of the past, my vote goes for Chimera-riding drive-by experts. I am not sure what your Wolves look like, but they tend to be better in close range engagements with the aim of getting stuck in there. Chimeras with Plasma Vets offer excellent mobile fire support for that, with three Plasmas and a Plasma Pistol. However, I recommend taking a Company Commander along for the re-roll 1s order, so that they won’t fry themselves. Tallarn would be a solid Doctrine, as it promotes mobility and thinking on your feet, something the Wolves tend to value. Alternatively, Catachan, to show the feral nature of Fenrisians. That is, is your Guardsmen are Fenrisian to begin with. Triple Meltas may also be a solid idea if your opponent is throwing Dreadnoughts at you.

 

My personal favourite is the quad flamer squad though. Not the most efficient one, outside of Catachan engaging hordes, but when it works, it is satisfying. Oh how lovely it burns...

Edited January 15, 2018 by Frater Cornelius

[Halfpint100]

If they are back line then you want 3 plasma/ grenade launchers (GLs are dirt cheap for bs 3+) and a heavy weapon, maybe autocannon or lascannon. Cadnam works better here

 

For front line again three of those two special weapons and a plasma pistol. Mordian is great with plasma for their order of nailing characters

[Major_Gilbear]

With Veterans, you're really looking at 10 Guardsmen with three special weapons at BS3+. You can add a HW and upgrade the sergeant a little as well if you want to, but that's not what Veterans are about in terms of options really.

 

The special weapons available to them are: flamers, plasma guns, melta guns, grenade launchers, and sniper rifles.

 

Of these, plasma and GL are probably the most "efficient", with GL being the cheapest points-wise by some way.

 

Heavy weapons are best kept cheap in trooper squads I think, so I'd recommend the HB as a good choice if you want something to boost a squads firepower a bit. And, if it dies or you don't get to fire it much, you're not forfeiting many points.

 

Next up, is that you'll want/need some officers for them, as Orders makes them much better. Company Commanders are more popular choice than Platoon Commanders, but if you are just using a couple of Vet squads, you might want to make do with the cheaper PC if points are tight. I think that some redundancy is important here, as it usually is with the Guard, and you should make sure that you have enough to issue orders to all your units as a minimum.

 

You'll also want to consider what Regiment you want them to all be from, as this will have some effect on the weapons you choose. Cadian, Vostroyan, and Mordian are good for those that prefer a more static gunline style, and Tallarn are a better choice for something more mobile. Catachan is good if you want to get them into melee, and this doctrine makes it very worthwhile having powerfists on your officers too. Steel Legion isn't a terrible choice here either, especially if you're looking at three plasma guns in each Vet squad and are thinking of mechanising the force.

 

Finally, you mentioned command squads. These are essentially Vets with fewer bodies, and you can take up to four special weapons. In this sense, they are more efficient at running them than the Vets, but you do paint a big target on them. There's been some discussion here about giving them 4 GL to keep both costs and target priority risk down, and some have felt that a banner, medic and two lasguns was also worth consideration. I would perhaps see how you get on with the rest of the force first, and then decide what role you want your command squad(s) to fill after you've played a couple of games. You might even decide that as you're running Vets anyway, you don't really want or need the command squads as well.

 

Hopefully that gives you some guidance without shunting you into a fixed list (which is important, because they are your dudes, not mine), but do feel free to ask more questions if you have any! :)

[librisrouge]

I saw a Cadian list once built around Vsnguard Detachments full of just veteran squads and officers. Each squad had a lascannon and three sniper rifles. It was fairly scary, with almost all models consistently hitting on rerollable 3s, lascannons for days, enough sniper rifles to kill characters, and enough lasguns to shred hordes that closed.

[zero88]

Three GLs, a Heavy Bolter team, and a boltgun on the Sergeant gets my vote

[duz_]

Mordian! Good choice! ;)

I've just kitted out 2 squads of Vet's with plasma. Cliched? Definitely, however my vet's have a very specific purpose. They use the relic which allows them to outflank onto the board to get them close enough to enemy characters to use the Mordian execution order! ;) :D

Now if your WL isn't IG you wont have access to this, however you could still use the squads in your back field to target enemy characters as they get close to your line. Given your mixed forces it could be a nice (unpleasant) surprise for your opponent! If they're going to be relatively static a heavy bolter or autocannon may not go astray either. 

:tu:

Mordian! Good choice!

I've just kitted out 2 squads of Vet's with plasma. Cliched? Definitely, however my vet's have a very specific purpose. They use the relic which allows them to outflank onto the board to get them close enough to enemy characters to use the Mordian execution order!

Now if your WL isn't IG you wont have access to this, however you could still use the squads in your back field to target enemy characters as they get close to your line. Given your mixed forces it could be a nice (unpleasant) surprise for your opponent! If they're going to be relatively static a heavy bolter or autocannon may not go astray either. 

[Jarl Deathwolf]

Wow, this is a lot of solid advice to sort through. Much appreciated!

 

If they're supporting your Wolves, is there anything in particular that they're lacking? Or would prefer not to do? That would be a good start If they're to be a supporting unit holding back then plasma does sound more useful, with a greater range than melta for example. Plus plasma is good in 8th, but don't forget the option for a heavy weapon team for some extra range and punch. Again something longer range would be good, perhaps an autocannon to match the plasma a bit?

 

It didn't even occur to me to add heavy weapons to them, but that would help immensely, especially if they are guards to my Long Fangs. The rest of my army is generally given melta for troops and lascannons for vehicles, with Long Fangs wielding missile launchers for the most part. Autocannons sound like a nice compliment to that.

 

 

Guard Heavy Weapons are tend to be more efficient than Marine ones, outside of Lascannons, but I do not think Vets are a good unit for them. They tend to be on the move and IG HW shine through numbers, something Vets won’t offer. I’d keep Heavy Weapons in the HWS.

 

-cut-

My personal favourite is the quad flamer squad though. Not the most efficient one, outside of Catachan engaging hordes, but when it works, it is satisfying. Oh how lovely it burns...

 

Just to note, I am focusing on Veterans since my background for these troops is that they are survivors of Midguardia - a Space Wolves controlled planet that was destroyed in the Wrath of Magnus. These are grizzled survivors determined to fulfill their oath of loyalty to the Sons of Russ - as a result I'm willing to pay the cost increase to demonstrate this. 

 

Catachan was a world I was considering, if only to get across the Vlka-sponsored training they'd have. A quad flamer squad sounds excellent, if short ranged. Purgation is manifest!

 

 

With Veterans, you're really looking at 10 Guardsmen with three special weapons at BS3+. You can add a HW and upgrade the sergeant a little as well if you want to, but that's not what Veterans are about in terms of options really.

 

Heavy weapons are best kept cheap in trooper squads I think, so I'd recommend the HB as a good choice if you want something to boost a squads firepower a bit. And, if it dies or you don't get to fire it much, you're not forfeiting many points.

 

Next up, is that you'll want/need some officers for them, as Orders makes them much better. Company Commanders are more popular choice than Platoon Commanders, but if you are just using a couple of Vet squads, you might want to make do with the cheaper PC if points are tight. I think that some redundancy is important here, as it usually is with the Guard, and you should make sure that you have enough to issue orders to all your units as a minimum.

 

You'll also want to consider what Regiment you want them to all be from, as this will have some effect on the weapons you choose. Cadian, Vostroyan, and Mordian are good for those that prefer a more static gunline style, and Tallarn are a better choice for something more mobile. Catachan is good if you want to get them into melee, and this doctrine makes it very worthwhile having powerfists on your officers too. Steel Legion isn't a terrible choice here either, especially if you're looking at three plasma guns in each Vet squad and are thinking of mechanising the force.

 

Finally, you mentioned command squads. These are essentially Vets with fewer bodies, and you can take up to four special weapons. In this sense, they are more efficient at running them than the Vets, but you do paint a big target on them. There's been some discussion here about giving them 4 GL to keep both costs and target priority risk down, and some have felt that a banner, medic and two lasguns was also worth consideration. I would perhaps see how you get on with the rest of the force first, and then decide what role you want your command squad(s) to fill after you've played a couple of games. You might even decide that as you're running Vets anyway, you don't really want or need the command squads as well.

 

Hopefully that gives you some guidance without shunting you into a fixed list (which is important, because they are your dudes, not mine), but do feel free to ask more questions if you have any!

 

 

If they are back line then you want 3 plasma/ grenade launchers (GLs are dirt cheap for bs 3+) and a heavy weapon, maybe autocannon or lascannon. Cadnam works better here

For front line again three of those two special weapons and a plasma pistol. Mordian is great with plasma for their order of nailing characters

 

Honestly the big factors that swung it in Mordia's favor was the execution order and the overwatch boon. I grow tired of Abaddon and his buddies dropping behind my lines with no reprisal. While I might dip my toe into other regiments, I have grown fond of the Mordians. Although the range provided by Vostroyans would help slightly if I intended to follow through with them being deployment zone guards.

 

I'll take your advice and not build the command squad until I have tested these troops in blood first. I'll need to experiment with tactics and the radically different infantry anyway. I was previously lining towards a standard and a medic since I was going to have crusaders nearby, so I'm glad that it is considered a viable strategy. 

 

I was planning on having a Platoon Commander since they are an HQ choice that can issue two orders a turn. If I get two of them, then I effectively can command all my troops at once. Perhaps since I only plan on fielding one Leman Russ (for now...) I can make him a tank commander? Can they order themselves?

 

I saw a Cadian list once built around Vsnguard Detachments full of just veteran squads and officers. Each squad had a lascannon and three sniper rifles. It was fairly scary, with almost all models consistently hitting on rerollable 3s, lascannons for days, enough sniper rifles to kill characters, and enough lasguns to shred hordes that closed.

 

Ooo, I do like that. I never seem to use my Wolf Scouts very well, and I always say a lascannon a turn ensures the traitors will burn. This could be a good way to spread out the snipers. A veteran squad with them and a couple packs of Wolf Scouts are fairly cheap, after all.

 

 

Mordian! Good choice!

I've just kitted out 2 squads of Vet's with plasma. Cliched? Definitely, however my vet's have a very specific purpose. They use the relic which allows them to outflank onto the board to get them close enough to enemy characters to use the Mordian execution order!

Now if your WL isn't IG you wont have access to this, however you could still use the squads in your back field to target enemy characters as they get close to your line. Given your mixed forces it could be a nice (unpleasant) surprise for your opponent! If they're going to be relatively static a heavy bolter or autocannon may not go astray either. 

 

Thanks! The more I've been reading about the Mordians the more I've come to like them.  Since there isn't a lot of benefit to having my Warlord be a Space Wolf (I can't give Bjorn or Grimnar a relic, and our warlord trait isn't game changing to me), I was thinking of having my Guard commander be the warlord. The particular reason is the relic that can allow a unit to receive two orders - combining Execution Squad with First Rank, Second Rank. I *really* don't like Abaddon. 

 

So the gist I am getting for heavy weapons is that they might not be a good option for Veterans due to their higher cost, but if I decide to go with them, heavy bolters are a cheap, solid option, and autocannons are a good all-rounder? Either way, I don't field any of either (and I focus on anti-armor for the most part) so they'd be bringing something I have little of. 

[duz_]

The squad does become expensive quick if youre taking 3x Plasma guns already. Adding a heavy weapon team (and heavy flamer if your inclined) does increase it more. Not that they're aren't effective.

 

I really like HB this editions for their effectiveness and cost I prefer them over ACs tbh because of volume of fire.

 

Unfortunately the orders dont stack like that according to the FAQ. You have to execute one at a time (its also unclear if that means a unit can fire twice in a turn via orders).

[lash144]

If you are adding Guardsman you will have so many cheap models, that you can fill out your entire deployment zone and thus won't have problems with stuff dropping in behind you. (However I wouldn't use Veterans for that purpos)

[Frater Cornelius]

@Jarl Deathwolf - There is little stopping you from trying out different regiments. There is no official regiment for Midgardia, after all. Guess is comes down to efficiency vs ‘that fits the theme’.

[Halfpint100]

To answer your question further up, yes tank commanders can order themselves. It is very handy, though if you have 2 modiran vehicles, +1 to overwatch if they are within 6" i believe, or it could be 3". One of the two

[Major_Gilbear]

A few more comments on your follow-up post:

 

- Giving Veterans flamers is (IMHO) a waste of their BS3+ that you pay so dearly for. You'd be better off with an all-lasgun Infantry squad plus an all-flamer Special Weapon squad (or just two all-lasgun infantry squads full stop). This would also work better with the typical Mordian tactics, and the SWS can ether be deployed to protect the Infantry squad, or positioned for a flamer assault against a good target.

 

- If heavy weapons are moved, the odds of scoring a hit with them drops quite a bit. Added to this the generally mediocre Guard BS and their low survival rate, which makes multi-role weapons generally poor value for points. The HB is cheap, has a decent number of shots, and has a reasonable chance of wounding a good range of likely targets. At the other end, the Lascannon may not hit very often but has a reliably powerful result when it does. Weapons like the Autocannon and the Missile Launcher suffer this edition from being comparatively expensive for the reliable damage they put out, and you are then overpaying for shooting at light chaff, or underpowered for dealing with high-toughness targets. The other weapon worth a mention is the Mortar - very cheap, and a HWS with three can keep up a nice light barrage all game. All the heavy weapons in a Guard army benefit from being taken in big numbers (like everything else in the army), and so cost once again becomes an important factor when you consider how many of each you'll have in the force overall.

 

- Watch out for the interaction of rules; stratagems, doctrines, orders, and regiment types all interact with each other quite specifically. Adding units with no regiment (like Crusaders for example) into a detachment with regiment models (like Mordians) has repercussions that you may not want.

 

- Consider using Infantry squads backed up by SWS and/or HWS instead of having all-Veteran squads. Your units can still be veterans/survivors in fluff terms, but you might find it easier to make use of the different squads types.

 

- You can change which "Regiment" your force is using the rules for between games (and even between detachments as long as it's clear which is which). Just tell your opponent what's what, and make sure everything is crystal clear model-wise so that there can be no confusion.

 

- Despite my (and others') comments here, don't get too hung up on the exact weapons in each squad. If you think something looks fun and want to include some for Rule Of Cool (the best rule IMO), then go ahead - spending an extra 5pts on an upgrade for a single squad or whatever is hardly going to cost you the game! Just be aware of the rules interactions as I mentioned above - these are force multipliers, and are a key part of what makes the Guard a strong force in the first place.

 

:)

[Hawkeye252]

I've had a lot of success with my veteran squad when I've given them 3 plasma gun and a plasma pistol on the Sgt. Out flank them with a CC to give them rerolls of 1 to hit... super charged plasma into whatever you want. Beware, sometimes that turns them into an expensive suicide squad.

[CrusherJoe]

Wow, this is a lot of solid advice to sort through. Much appreciated!

<snip>

Thanks! The more I've been reading about the Mordians the more I've come to like them.  Since there isn't a lot of benefit to having my Warlord be a Space Wolf (I can't give Bjorn or Grimnar a relic, and our warlord trait isn't game changing to me), I was thinking of having my Guard commander be the warlord. The particular reason is the relic that can allow a unit to receive two orders - combining Execution Squad with First Rank, Second Rank. I *really* don't like Abaddon. 

<more_snippage>

 

If you *really* don't like Abba-dabble (as I call him) perhaps I can interest you in what I call the "Problem Solver". The Relic of Lost Cadia popped with multiple Manticores and Leman Russ tanks with battle cannons (don't forget to give the tanks the "Pound Them to Dust!" order first). Rated 1.5 dM/t (that's 1.5 dead Mortarions/turn, mathematically speaking). That's probably waaaaay more than the few Vets that you're talking about...but I have Wolves, too, and am patiently awaiting the coming of a Codex to make them playable again. Until then I'm having fun Leafblowering things off the table. :)

[Jarl Deathwolf]

A few more comments on your follow-up post:

 

- Giving Veterans flamers is (IMHO) a waste of their BS3+ that you pay so dearly for. You'd be better off with an all-lasgun Infantry squad plus an all-flamer Special Weapon squad (or just two all-lasgun infantry squads full stop). This would also work better with the typical Mordian tactics, and the SWS can ether be deployed to protect the Infantry squad, or positioned for a flamer assault against a good target.

 

- If heavy weapons are moved, the odds of scoring a hit with them drops quite a bit. Added to this the generally mediocre Guard BS and their low survival rate, which makes multi-role weapons generally poor value for points. The HB is cheap, has a decent number of shots, and has a reasonable chance of wounding a good range of likely targets. At the other end, the Lascannon may not hit very often but has a reliably powerful result when it does. Weapons like the Autocannon and the Missile Launcher suffer this edition from being comparatively expensive for the reliable damage they put out, and you are then overpaying for shooting at light chaff, or underpowered for dealing with high-toughness targets. The other weapon worth a mention is the Mortar - very cheap, and a HWS with three can keep up a nice light barrage all game. All the heavy weapons in a Guard army benefit from being taken in big numbers (like everything else in the army), and so cost once again becomes an important factor when you consider how many of each you'll have in the force overall.

 

- Watch out for the interaction of rules; stratagems, doctrines, orders, and regiment types all interact with each other quite specifically. Adding units with no regiment (like Crusaders for example) into a detachment with regiment models (like Mordians) has repercussions that you may not want.

 

- Consider using Infantry squads backed up by SWS and/or HWS instead of having all-Veteran squads. Your units can still be veterans/survivors in fluff terms, but you might find it easier to make use of the different squads types.

 

- You can change which "Regiment" your force is using the rules for between games (and even between detachments as long as it's clear which is which). Just tell your opponent what's what, and make sure everything is crystal clear model-wise so that there can be no confusion.

 

- Despite my (and others') comments here, don't get too hung up on the exact weapons in each squad. If you think something looks fun and want to include some for Rule Of Cool (the best rule IMO), then go ahead - spending an extra 5pts on an upgrade for a single squad or whatever is hardly going to cost you the game! Just be aware of the rules interactions as I mentioned above - these are force multipliers, and are a key part of what makes the Guard a strong force in the first place.

 

 

Point taken. I had completely forgotten about the special weapons squad, so I'll probably pick up five extra models and move the flamers to their own fire team (pun intended). I might pick up an extra squad of pure lasguns so I can switch out the special weapons with basic troops to experiment with. Although, the local area is fine with proxies so that isn't pressing. 

 

The more I hear about the heavy weapons teams the more convinced I am that heavy bolters will be the best option. Autocannons sound good, but the teams are rather flimsy for such an expensive weapon. I have lascannons on tanks and Long Fangs, and I'd rather have my Guard bring something different to the table. Mortars are alright, but beyond range they aren't much better than bolters, which I have in abundance. Though that attacking without line of sight sounds nice...

 

True, and if I have a pool of lasgun guys I can easily switch out special weapons and play them as standard infantry, which I will do to save points. I still prefer veterans, but sometimes I need those few extra points.

 

 

I've had a lot of success with my veteran squad when I've given them 3 plasma gun and a plasma pistol on the Sgt. Out flank them with a CC to give them rerolls of 1 to hit... super charged plasma into whatever you want. Beware, sometimes that turns them into an expensive suicide squad.

 

That sounds hilarious. I'm going to try it. In fact, looking at the Tallarn strategem I could have a total of five units (so maybe three veterans, the Company Commander, and either a special weapons or heavy weapons team?) behind the enemy lines. So instead of them protecting *my* deployment zone, they immediately seize the enemy deployment zone. Wolves at the door and an encamped Guard gun line in the backyard. Works well seeing as my main enemy starts the battle mostly in reserves or otherwise on the edge of his deployment zone. 

 

 

 

If you *really* don't like Abba-dabble (as I call him) perhaps I can interest you in what I call the "Problem Solver". The Relic of Lost Cadia popped with multiple Manticores and Leman Russ tanks with battle cannons (don't forget to give the tanks the "Pound Them to Dust!" order first). Rated 1.5 dM/t (that's 1.5 dead Mortarions/turn, mathematically speaking). That's probably waaaaay more than the few Vets that you're talking about...but I have Wolves, too, and am patiently awaiting the coming of a Codex to make them playable again. Until then I'm having fun Leafblowering things off the table.

 

 

I like my Wolves list and it works pretty well against the Chaos enemy I face most of the time... excluding Abbie and his pet Lord of Skulls. Last match he charged and annhilated Bjorn which was rather disheartening. The halved damage is really frustrating, and his Terminator or Obliterator bodyguard makes it difficult to reach him - which is why I like the Mordian firing team order. 

 

If you are adding Guardsman you will have so many cheap models, that you can fill out your entire deployment zone and thus won't have problems with stuff dropping in behind you. (However I wouldn't use Veterans for that purpos)

 

Warding off Alpha Strikes is actually rather easy just with Wolves - the Fenrisian Wolves, specifically. Terminator sized bases for six points a model isn't bad, and they move swiftly so they can catch up after the first turn. Still, Guardsmen are more dangerous than dire wolves and don't mind staying still. 

 

 

 

*snip*

Unfortunately the orders dont stack like that according to the FAQ. You have to execute one at a time (its also unclear if that means a unit can fire twice in a turn via orders).

 

Really? Curses. None of the orders say shoot immediately, but I'll take your word for it. That limits the usefulness of that relic significantly. I suppose that just makes the above-mentioned Dagger infiltration all the more appealing, though I do like the Iron Star relic. 

[Inso]

Arming veterans? I just give them what I find in my bits box... so they get all four special weapons across different squads... and I mix and match for character :)

[Spyboy]

I think duz may be slightly mistaken, at least our group understands it differently. None of the firing orders say you have to fire, resolving the order simple gives them a buff, like rapid fire 2 lasguns, or rerolling 1s to hit. Therefore my group has determined that you can indeed stack those. If an FAQ says that is not the case I could very well be wrong, but we haven't seen it yet. I believe the only FAQ on it says you have to resolve them one at a time, which is exactly what we do. Edited January 17, 2018 by Spyboy

[duz_]

From the FAQ:

 

Q: If I issue an order to a unit with an Officer who has the Laurels of Command, and I roll a 4+ to issue another order to the same unit, do I resolve the first order before issuing the second?

A: Yes.

 

Also basic rule of multiple orders from a single model is resolve first order before issuing the second one. Edited January 17, 2018 by duz_

[Spyboy]

From the FAQ:

 

 

Q: If I issue an order to a unit with an Officer who has the Laurels of Command, and I roll a 4+ to issue another order to the same unit, do I resolve the first order before issuing the second?

A: Yes.

 

Also basic rule of multiple orders from a single model is resolve first order before issuing the second one.

Yes, I am not questioning the resolving of each order. But in my opinion each order gives a buff, but doesn't say you have to use it right away. So resolving say frfsrf would give you rapid fire two lasguns till the end of phase. I know back in 7th you had to shoot with them immediately but now you do not.